[paul cowley]

...but what types of grasses did you use? warm or cold season? and any other tidbits you might offer...bunkers lined, greens type construction etc....thanks!

[paul cowley]

bump

[Ronald Montesano]

It is a holiday and maybe he has better things to do this weekend than worry about the GCA board. Just me, thinking out loud.

EDIT: I have your answer. Look at reply #107 and you'll know where he is:  http://www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,53051.100.html

[Matthew Mollica]

In another recent thread on the course, Ash Towe indicated Tara Iti is 100% fescue.

[RJ_Daley]

What is the most tropical area that Fescue has survived.  My guess is that Tara Iti is much warmer in the Southern Hemisphere winter than Barnbougle Dunes.  Can Fescue thrive in on the North Island eastern beaches?  Of course they wouldn't have seeded it without strong opinions from turf professionals that it is possible.  But, will it be more of an uphill battle year in and year out than say, Chambers Bay experience with maintaining fescue.

[Tom_Doak]

What is the most tropical area that Fescue has survived.  My guess is that Tara Iti is much warmer in the Southern Hemisphere winter than Barnbougle Dunes.  Can Fescue thrive in on the North Island eastern beaches?  Of course they wouldn't have seeded it without strong opinions from turf professionals that it is possible.  But, will it be more of an uphill battle year in and year out than say, Chambers Bay experience with maintaining fescue.

RJ:  With apologies, don't you have better things to do than second-guessing grassing decisions 6000 miles from home?  Tara Iti is warmer than Barnbougle, but nowhere near as hot in the summer as Ballyneal or Sand Hills.  So far the fescue seems to love its new home.  Our superintendent CJ notes that it is the only place in the world that you can play golf on fescue and then go swim in the ocean when you're done; his only problem from day 1 has been windblown sand while we're trying to reestablish native plants in the areas between holes.  There was VERY little native vegetation left after the pine plantation had choked it all out.

[Tom_Doak]

Paul:


To answer your other questions, everything else is built from pure dunes sand, the same as Barnbougle or Pacific Dunes ... no liners, no usga greens, no nothing.  There was a lot of micro-shaping, since the establishment of the pine trees had wiped out most of whatever was there before, and since we had three crew members with a lot of time on their hands due to some construction and permitting issues.


Like every other fescue course I've done, I won't swear that it will be 100% fescue in ten years, and I don't care, as long as the playing surface is hard and fast and tight, and I can play the ball on the ground when I want to.  I played 81 holes in the pre-opening event in April and it was PERFECT in that regard ... light years beyond the place I am today, for example.


The biggest risk we have taken is trying to really naturalize the edges of turf and not make any hard lines anywhere ... the fescue bleeds into clumpy areas and then into sand, and often when your ball rolls right to the edge you get a lie in broken-down turf that's a really difficult or finicky recovery.  The fairways are generally very wide so if you roll off the turf it was not a good shot, but I can still see a lot of players hating the vagaries of those odd lies at the margins.


We will all be there in Feburary, you should come down and see it.  Brian Slawnik ran the project and he did a hell of a job.

[MClutterbuck]

What is the most tropical area that Fescue has survived.  My guess is that Tara Iti is much warmer in the Southern Hemisphere winter than Barnbougle Dunes.  Can Fescue thrive in on the North Island eastern beaches?  Of course they wouldn't have seeded it without strong opinions from turf professionals that it is possible.  But, will it be more of an uphill battle year in and year out than say, Chambers Bay experience with maintaining fescue.

I cant discuss greens, but at fairway HOC fine fescues do great on extremely dry (15-20% relative humidity), windy (40-80 km/h), very warm (35C - 90F) and no rain summers (110-day drought) with very little or no irrigation. In fact, the up to 8mm per day irrigation that was assumed by agronomists under normal summer conditions turned out to be 16mm PER MONTH. They went from brown to green in about 5 days after we started getting due in the fall.


Fescues are amazing and resilent and survive conditions that most other fairway grasses do not, with no disease, and not to much fertilization, and provide a fantastic playing surface. I believe there are fescue courses at lesser latitudes than Tara Iti. 

[Wayne_Kozun]

Our superintendent CJ notes that it is the only place in the world that you can play golf on fescue and then go swim in the ocean when you're done;

The folks at Cabot will dispute that assertion.  We Canadians are a hardy lot.

[Dane Hawker]

The quality of the fescue at Tara Iti is excellent. CJ has done a great job with the turf!

[Tom_Doak]

Our superintendent CJ notes that it is the only place in the world that you can play golf on fescue and then go swim in the ocean when you're done;

The folks at Cabot will dispute that assertion.  We Canadians are a hardy lot.

Wayne:


I was just at Cabot and there were plenty of people at the beach, which was nice to see.  That beach gets more use than the one at Tara Iti.  Probably why C.J. likes the beach at Tara Iti better.  But Tara Iti is playable 12 months of the year, I'd guess Cabot is not. 

[paul cowley]

Paul:


To answer your other questions, everything else is built from pure dunes sand, the same as Barnbougle or Pacific Dunes ... no liners, no usga greens, no nothing.  There was a lot of micro-shaping, since the establishment of the pine trees had wiped out most of whatever was there before, and since we had three crew members with a lot of time on their hands due to some construction and permitting issues.


Like every other fescue course I've done, I won't swear that it will be 100% fescue in ten years, and I don't care, as long as the playing surface is hard and fast and tight, and I can play the ball on the ground when I want to.  I played 81 holes in the pre-opening event in April and it was PERFECT in that regard ... light years beyond the place I am today, for example.


The biggest risk we have taken is trying to really naturalize the edges of turf and not make any hard lines anywhere ... the fescue bleeds into clumpy areas and then into sand, and often when your ball rolls right to the edge you get a lie in broken-down turf that's a really difficult or finicky recovery.  The fairways are generally very wide so if you roll off the turf it was not a good shot, but I can still see a lot of players hating the vagaries of those odd lies at the margins.


We will all be there in Feburary, you should come down and see it.  Brian Slawnik ran the project and he did a hell of a job.

Thanks Tom...from the photos I wasn't sure of the zone you might be dealing with. It looked like it was in the broad transition zone between warm season grasses and fescues. A fickle area affected by differing combinations of humidity, rainfall and seasonal temps. I agree that how you handle the change from the fairway to natural edges are where you win or lose the look and playability.


Diamante Dunes (warm season paspalum) has been my battle the past 8 years. After an extensive grass edge/irrigation renovation I've been coordinating since this past January and finished in April...I can now rest knowing it will remain stable with 80% less maintenance costs. I'm good. It would have been easier with bermuda and I could go on about that but I won't. Designing a warm season 'links' course is a challenge getting players to understand that it's not Scotland, nor will ever play the same as a result of the difference in the grasses. A good challenge for the future.

[Wayne_Kozun]

I was just at Cabot and there were plenty of people at the beach, which was nice to see.  That beach gets more use than the one at Tara Iti.  Probably why C.J. likes the beach at Tara Iti better.  But Tara Iti is playable 12 months of the year, I'd guess Cabot is not. 

You got me there.

[Jon Wiggett]

What is the most tropical area that Fescue has survived.  My guess is that Tara Iti is much warmer in the Southern Hemisphere winter than Barnbougle Dunes.  Can Fescue thrive in on the North Island eastern beaches?  Of course they wouldn't have seeded it without strong opinions from turf professionals that it is possible.  But, will it be more of an uphill battle year in and year out than say, Chambers Bay experience with maintaining fescue.

I cant discuss greens, but at fairway HOC fine fescues do great on extremely dry (15-20% relative humidity), windy (40-80 km/h), very warm (35C - 90F) and no rain summers (110-day drought) with very little or no irrigation. In fact, the up to 8mm per day irrigation that was assumed by agronomists under normal summer conditions turned out to be 16mm PER MONTH. They went from brown to green in about 5 days after we started getting due in the fall.


Fescues are amazing and resilent and survive conditions that most other fairway grasses do not, with no disease, and not to much fertilization, and provide a fantastic playing surface. I believe there are fescue courses at lesser latitudes than Tara Iti.

Nice not to be alone to see someone else has had success in a hot climate with fescue. The greens will do fine though may need quite a high HOC. Mine were at 7mm through the hottest part and stimped at 11+ so fast enough.

I suspect Chambers Bay just got the maintenance program a bit skew.

Jon

[Rees Milikin]

Our superintendent CJ notes that it is the only place in the world that you can play golf on fescue and then go swim in the ocean when you're done;

The folks at Cabot will dispute that assertion.  We Canadians are a hardy lot.

Wayne:


I was just at Cabot and there were plenty of people at the beach, which was nice to see.  That beach gets more use than the one at Tara Iti.  Probably why C.J. likes the beach at Tara Iti better.  But Tara Iti is playable 12 months of the year, I'd guess Cabot is not. 

The surfing at Tara Iti is really good, not so sure about Cabot.

[Michael Wharton-Palmer]

Designing a warm season 'links' course is a challenge getting players to understand that it's not Scotland, nor will ever play the same as a result of the difference in the grasses. A good challenge for the future....
[/size][/color]
[/size]I agree Paul very hard for most folks to understand why it doesnt play firm and fast.[/color]
[/size]But with passpallum it never will right?[/color]
[/size]I cant imagine that type of grass ever allowing that style of play.[/color]
[/size]Perfect for nice looking fairways with all year round coverage, but never that links like on the ground approach. That is not a critisism at all as you know my feelings toward the Dunes course very well.[/color]
[/size]Would having used Bermuda made any difference in that regard?[/color]
[/size]Any news on course#3 yet?[/color]

[paul cowley]

Hey Michael!
Good questions and I'll stab an answer.


Well managed paspalum...aggressively de thatched and top dressed...will never be faster than 2/3rds when compared to fescues...probably a lot less. I'd bump bermuda up a bit because its less sticky and recovers faster from low cutting (bermuda when scalped puts its energy into leaf growth, while paspalum strengthens its roots first and leaf growth comes later).


A designer can combat this the most in the greens complexes rather than in the fairways. False fronts, side slopes, back stops and kickslopes can all add a lot of movement options for the ball around the green. Good stuff if one is thinking while designing.

[Tom_Doak]

A designer can combat this the most in the greens complexes rather than in the fairways. False fronts, side slopes, back stops and kickslopes can all add a lot of movement options for the ball around the green. Good stuff if one is thinking while designing.

Paul:


Good answer.  I have been doing this for ages but yours is the best explanation of why and how.


Streamsong's bermudagrass is really quite a fast playing surface most of the time.  Bermuda is always fastest when it's dormant [I think of the Santa Ana in Melbourne], and I guess at Streamsong it has the advantage of being "almost" dormant during the prime months.  I don't know if it would be possible to get the surface as fast in a place where it's growing aggressively twelve months of the year ... I have never seen such a course I guess.

[paul cowley]

Thanks Tom


Michael you will be pleased to know that for the next 2 months we will start again what we first did last year....aerorating. then using our new turf stripper and then verticutting and then low mowing the entire course. If brown is beautiful this look is for you.


We acquired the turf stripper last year to help dethatch 5 years of buildup and it helped alot, but as I previously stated you can't get too aggressive with paspalum...scalping takes 6 to 8 weeks to heal even during our best growing season...which is now.


I believe that by using this program over the next 2 or 3 years the turf play characteristics will be one of continuous  improvement...and especially noticeable by those talented elite players such as yourself! When do you come back?

[David_Tepper]

Ron Whitten on Tara Iti:

http://www.golfdigest.com/story/dreamy-kiwi-new-zealands-tara-iti

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