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Stewart Abramson

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Tegavah (f/k/a Vista Verde) "partial redesign"?
« on: June 29, 2015, 06:35:55 PM »
Vista Verde/Tegavah has always been popular here. This article indicates that they will be starting to build houses around it and that Tom Lehman is doing a partial re-design. Anyone know anything further about what the plan is?


http://www.trilogylife.com/communities/arizona/verde-river-ranch/
« Last Edit: June 29, 2015, 06:37:28 PM by Stewart Abramson »

Steve_ Shaffer

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Re: Tegavah (f/k/a Vista Verde) "partial redesign"?
« Reply #1 on: June 29, 2015, 07:24:09 PM »
Lehman recently did a redesign of both courses at nearby Rio Verde CC : http://www.rioverdearizona.com/course-tour




We’ve created golf for all levels of players to enjoy.”
- Tom Lehman, PGA Professional and former British Open Champion


I presume that's the story line at the new Verde River Ranch "active adult" community.


http://www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,58007

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"Some of us worship in churches, some in synagogues, some on golf courses ... "  Adlai Stevenson
Hyman Roth to Michael Corleone: "We're bigger than US Steel."
Ben Hogan “The most important shot in golf is the next one”

Stewart Abramson

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Re: Tegavah (f/k/a Vista Verde) "partial redesign"?
« Reply #2 on: June 29, 2015, 08:10:59 PM »
Lehman recently did a redesign of both courses at nearby Rio Verde CC : http://www.rioverdearizona.com/course-tour
We’ve created golf for all levels of players to enjoy.”
- Tom Lehman, PGA Professional and former British Open Champion




I thought the course was already goodfor all levels of play. Any idea what they plan to do/change?

Steve_ Shaffer

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Re: Tegavah (f/k/a Vista Verde) "partial redesign"?
« Reply #3 on: June 29, 2015, 08:39:49 PM »
Stewart,


I have no idea what Lehman's plans are but if I were to guess softening the bunkers would be on his list.
"Some of us worship in churches, some in synagogues, some on golf courses ... "  Adlai Stevenson
Hyman Roth to Michael Corleone: "We're bigger than US Steel."
Ben Hogan “The most important shot in golf is the next one”

Matthew Petersen

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Re: Tegavah (f/k/a Vista Verde) "partial redesign"?
« Reply #4 on: April 26, 2016, 03:09:28 PM »
The course will be closing 4/28 for work to be done, with plans to re-open in the fall (November). The web site has a reasonably thorough description of the work to be done:

Quote
Beginning in April, 2016, Verde River Golf & Social Club will change forever. Under the watchful eye of PGA Tour legend Tom Lehman and his associate, senior architect Christopher Brands, an already award-winning layout will – through changes both large and small – transform into a quintessential example of contemporary desert golf architecture.

The six-month project will focus on the following key areas:

Sight Line Improvements
Originally envisioned in the early 2000’s and ultimately constructed in 2006, the course did a great job of taking advantage of its natural terrain and the gradual slope from the west edge of the property to the east. From numerous tees and greens on the course, views of Weaver’s Needle, Four Peaks, and the Mazatzal’s abounded. However, over the course of time many of these sight lines have been compromised due to overgrowth of the desert areas. As part of the project, selective clearing is taking place in an effort to allow the player to connect more closely with the visual splendor of the surrounding area.

Bunker Renovations
More than a decade of erosion compaction have turned once fair challenges to a player to penalties well beyond what should be expected from fairway and greenside hazards. Via re-shaping and the introduction of new, finer grit, whiter sand, the bunkers throughout the course are being redone to provide both a look and strategic challenge appropriate for a golf course of this quality.

“Turning of the Clock”
Among the many changes occurring on the overall site plan is the relocation of the clubhouse to the southern end of the current practice range (it was previously envisaged to be to the north of the range). This move to the new location – which facilitates a better view from the club and also easier access to the main community thoroughfare – means that four holes are directly impacted and will require change. In essence, we will need to “turn the clock” for holes 8, 9, 10, and 11.

In the future routing, a version of the current hole 9 becomes the opening hole. The current hole 1 then becomes hole 2, and this continues through the first nine, with the current hole 8 becoming the finishing hole on the front. Somewhat similarly, on the second nine the current hole 11 becomes hole 10, the current hole 12 becomes hole 11, and so forth. The course’s finishing hole will be a dramatically re-created version of the course’s current hole 10.

Though at its root a functional change to facilitate the clubhouse move, the re-routing presents a whole new set of options in the “story” of the course; new opening and closing holes for each side provide Lehman to make a dramatic design statement at the beginning and end of the round.

Practice Facility Relocation & Expansion
As the course transitions from daily fee to private, the requirements for a practice facility increase vastly. To begin, a larger tee deck, larger putting green, and larger chipping/pitching area are must haves, and in the case of Verde River, this needs to happen in the context of the current north-to-south orientation flipping to south-to-north. Tom & Christopher will be using the opportunity provided by this reorientation to build a world-class facility, with more target greens, a partially-lighted tee deck and putting green, and an area dedicated to professional instruction.

Strategic Enhancements
In the 10+ years since the course was originally created, the game of golf has undergone a shift almost unparalleled in its history. Better players have become stronger and longer, while those who are less avid are playing less and pushing back against the game’s difficulty. As a designer, it is imperative that a new course effectively balance these seemingly incongruous forces. To accomplish this, Tom is working on reconfiguring the championship tees to further challenge strong amateur and professional players. But conversely, on the “standard” and forward tees, moves are being made to place tees where fairways widen, hazards become more benign, and carries aren’t forced. The best courses in the world test the accomplished players while accommodating the novice; the new Verde River will do the same.

Functional Updates
While possibly less exciting on the surface, many of the functional updates being made to the course will have the greatest impact. Primarily, the updates are being made to better facilitate the substantial drainage requirements of the site itself. The gradual slope which begins at Troon North and continues to the Verde River affords amazing views, but it also means that with every weather event a tremendous volume of water traverses the site on the way to the basin. Over time, many of the washes incorporated into the original design have proven to be ill-equipped to handle these needs, and thus course conditions have often suffered due to both washouts and standing water. With engineers providing guidance, Tom & Christopher will be addressing these underlying structural issues in ways that accomplish the task while enhancing the aesthetic.   

Taken in whole, the changes at Verde River Golf & Social Club will be both evolutionary and revolutionary. Aficionados will appreciate the subtle strategic improvements Lehman and his team make, while those who already love the course – and there are many – will appreciate the gentle touch Tom is taking with Ken Kavanaugh’s original design.

Matthew Petersen

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Re: Tegavah (f/k/a Vista Verde) "partial redesign"?
« Reply #5 on: April 26, 2016, 03:14:51 PM »
Per the scorecard, the "Tournament" tees already tip out at over 7,200 yards and 73.8 / 143 ... apparently that's not enough challenge for all of "strong amateur and professional" players who venture out there.

Ian Mackenzie

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Re: Tegavah (f/k/a Vista Verde) "partial redesign"?
« Reply #6 on: April 26, 2016, 03:16:11 PM »
Vista Verde? Rio Verde? Sounds like real estate sold by the guys in "Glengarry Glen Ross".... ;D

Carl Nichols

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Re: Tegavah (f/k/a Vista Verde) "partial redesign"?
« Reply #7 on: April 26, 2016, 03:30:09 PM »
Stewart,


I have no idea what Lehman's plans are but if I were to guess softening the bunkers would be on his list.


That would've been my guess too.

Bob Montle

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Re: Tegavah (f/k/a Vista Verde) "partial redesign"?
« Reply #8 on: April 26, 2016, 03:41:18 PM »
Interesting and surprising that "Sight Line Improvements" was number one on the list of improvements.

Strange priorities.
"If you're the swearing type, golf will give you plenty to swear about.  If you're the type to get down on yourself, you'll have ample opportunities to get depressed.  If you like to stop and smell the roses, here's your chance.  Golf never judges; it just brings out who you are."

Matthew Petersen

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Re: Tegavah (f/k/a Vista Verde) "partial redesign"?
« Reply #9 on: April 26, 2016, 04:00:15 PM »
Interesting and surprising that "Sight Line Improvements" was number one on the list of improvements.

Strange priorities.


It's a fair thing to address--in ten years, desert shrubs can easily go from a foot high to 7-10 feet high and that makes hitting over a wash a whole different prospect.


But it is strange to make that the first section when they're actually switching the order of the holes, apparently, more or less creating a new 18th hole.

Jason Topp

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Re: Tegavah (f/k/a Vista Verde) "partial redesign"?
« Reply #10 on: April 26, 2016, 05:41:16 PM »
Stewart,


I have no idea what Lehman's plans are but if I were to guess softening the bunkers would be on his list.

That has not been his approach in the past.

Matthew Petersen

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Re: Tegavah (f/k/a Vista Verde) "partial redesign"?
« Reply #11 on: April 27, 2016, 01:50:45 AM »
Stewart,


I have no idea what Lehman's plans are but if I were to guess softening the bunkers would be on his list.

That has not been his approach in the past.


Certainly not what the plan for the bunkers sounds like from the description out now. White sand!

Dave Givnish

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Re: Tegavah (f/k/a Vista Verde) "partial redesign"?
« Reply #12 on: April 28, 2016, 03:26:37 PM »
The name has changed to the Verde River Golf & Social Club. The marketing material makes me think that the clubhouse and practice facility that is at Wickenburg Ranch will be similar to what we should expect here. Shea/Trilogy did a good job there.


Ian - add Tonto Verde's 2 courses to the mix as it is right across the street from the property, between it and Rio Verde. The Verde River runs by about a mile east.


Houses are already going up. The ones that I saw seem to be set back enough to maintain a good deal of the views. It won't have We-ko-pa's wide open spaces but it won't be as tight of some of the other real estate courses in the Valley.


"Turning the clock" is only going to impact about 4 holes. 18 is a good finish now. It's a mid-distance par 4 with a tight green complex surrounded by water on one side and bunkers on the other. 17 is now a strong par 5. If 10 is dramatically changed as the new 18, that will be a solid finish.

Steve_ Shaffer

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Re: Tegavah (f/k/a Vista Verde) "partial redesign"?
« Reply #13 on: October 08, 2016, 03:16:26 PM »
The course opens in early November. Dave Givnish and I will be there. If anyone else would like to join us, send me a PM.

From an email:
We’re inside 100 days to the opening of the all-new Verde River Golf & Social Club, and no one is more excited about the progress than former Ryder Cup Captain, Tom Lehman.  "I couldn’t be more proud of the work we’ve done. Ken Kavanaugh's original design gave us great bones to work with, and thanks to Trilogy's commitment to the property, we have been able to take a fresh look at the golf course."
Tom's team focused on areas that will enhance the playing experience even further. There are some great new challenges, shot values, and sight lines that we can’t wait for players to enjoy. But, even in places where the team made significant changes, they were careful to do so in a way that remains in character for the course.
 The wholesale change on Holes #1, #14, #18, and the Practice Facility are not only a functional necessity to improve drainage, but will enhance the aesthetic and golf experience. Since construction began in April, these areas have taken on an entirely new shape, not least as they have been lowered by almost 16 feet. In the coming weeks we will finalize the shaping of these greens, tees, bunkers, golf car paths, and fairways.
Making an impact on Hole #1 was of critical importance to us, and re-shaping the fairway has already created a new level of excitement for the playability of the hole. The strategic reshaping has the added benefit of allowing for an altogether majestic view through a 'valley' from the fairway.
Among the most dramatic changes made by Lehman and his team has been the "turning of the clock" with regards to the golf course’s routing. This process involved re-routing the course so that the previous Hole #9 is now the opening hole. The previous Hole #1 became Hole #2, and so forth throughout the first nine. Likewise, on the back nine, the previous Hole #11 became Hole #10. The previous 12th hole became #11, and so on. The former Hole #10 was completely redesigned and will serve as the golf course’s finishing hole. Lehman opted to "turn the clock" in order to better accommodate the new clubhouse location, enhance access to the Club for both residents and guests, and create a compelling new start and finish to the Verde River golf experience.
Other important strategic changes will help the golf course better adapt to the preferences of modern players with varying skill levels. Lehman and his team have reconfigured the championship tees to further challenge strong amateur and professional players. However, the standard and forward tees have been repositioned in many cases to reduce forced carries and create better angles to fairways and greens for intermediate and novice players. The goal of these changes is to provide the correct blend of challenge and accessibility for different types of players.
"Some of us worship in churches, some in synagogues, some on golf courses ... "  Adlai Stevenson
Hyman Roth to Michael Corleone: "We're bigger than US Steel."
Ben Hogan “The most important shot in golf is the next one”

Steve_ Shaffer

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Re: Tegavah (f/k/a Vista Verde) "partial redesign"?
« Reply #14 on: October 17, 2016, 06:05:25 PM »
"Some of us worship in churches, some in synagogues, some on golf courses ... "  Adlai Stevenson
Hyman Roth to Michael Corleone: "We're bigger than US Steel."
Ben Hogan “The most important shot in golf is the next one”

Doug Wright

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Re: Tegavah (f/k/a Vista Verde) "partial redesign"?
« Reply #15 on: October 17, 2016, 07:57:33 PM »
I'm looking forward to seeing the "new and improved" Vista Verde, which I've really enjoyed since its opening in 2005. I found the course very challenging but fair, and I hope Lehman has not dumbed down the course too much. His comment in the article about the drivable 7th (now to be the 8th) hole makes me wonder about that. Yes it was a risk/reward hole but most everywhere around the green was playable, even the washes. My general concern is that this new "social club" approach will overshadow the golf course (at least till the next recession). One of the reasons I liked V V as well as courses like the nearby We-Ko-Pa is they are (or were) golf only. When it comes to golf courses, often dirt roads and doublewides > brick roads and palaces.
Twitter: @Deneuchre

Matthew Petersen

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Re: Tegavah (f/k/a Vista Verde) "partial redesign"?
« Reply #16 on: October 18, 2016, 01:17:10 PM »
Looking forward to seeing the new set up out there when they reopen. Vista Verde was always a favorite.

Steve_ Shaffer

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Re: Tegavah (f/k/a Vista Verde) "partial redesign"?
« Reply #17 on: November 01, 2016, 09:16:18 PM »
Course reopens on November 5 . 
"Some of us worship in churches, some in synagogues, some on golf courses ... "  Adlai Stevenson
Hyman Roth to Michael Corleone: "We're bigger than US Steel."
Ben Hogan “The most important shot in golf is the next one”

Matthew Petersen

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Re: Tegavah (f/k/a Vista Verde) "partial redesign"?
« Reply #18 on: November 09, 2016, 01:32:06 PM »
Played the new "Verde River" yesterday and ... was not really impressed.


The new first is probably the best of the new holes. A short par 4 with a downhill tee shot to a very narrow landing area with a desert hill encroaching on the left and the driving range to the right. There's a ridge in the driving area that you can lay back short of, leaving around 150 in or try to get over, where you might get to the bottom of the hill and have more like 100 left. There's a gaping bunker about 25 yards short of the elevated green that dominates your view if you do drive all the way to the bottom. The green is very narrow with a bunker front left and steep fallaway to the right. No pushover first.


The old 8th new 9th is not drastically different but my impression is that the tees shifted so the hole plays as less of a dogleg. It's somewhat shorter as well. Nice green though with a lower back tier falling away down the valley.


Finally the new 18th, in the spot of the old 10th, is just as boring a hole as you can imagine. The green has been pushed well back from the wash that once ran right in front of it so the wash is not really in play. The green is flanked by bunker front right and front left. It's a total snooze.


Other notable changes include many bunkers being taken out, or in some cases combined. There's not a huge amount of difference overall. It's probably somewhat easier to maintain and there are a few instances where the changes probably make the course more playable (bunker in front of par 3 10th [old 11th] is gone, bunkers left of 17th [old 18th] green are gone).


The 8th (old 7th) has seen its green lowered significantly and there's much more turf around the green now, which makes it a much more tempting target to go at from the tee.


The 14th (old 15th) has seen the low waste area to the right turned into a desert hill. The hole seems to sit in a sort of amphitheater now. Felt to me very fake and overall out of character with the rest of the course.


JK, I'm sad to say the old property wall that you had to drive over on that hole (from the tips) is also gone.


And just overall as the area is now being developed by Trilogy, the vibe is just totally different. One of the pleasures that course used to present was that it really just felt like you were out in the desert with lost of cool desert vegetation and long views everywhere. Now everything is being cleared for houses.


It's still better than your average desert golf course, but my impression from one play is it's a downgrade.


If you want to go see for yourself, I'd recommend waiting a few weeks until the grow in  has progressed a bit more. It was very shaggy out there. I was frankly surprised they went for a "re-open" in the current state, though it was totally playable.

Doug Wright

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Re: Tegavah (f/k/a Vista Verde) "partial redesign"?
« Reply #19 on: January 10, 2017, 04:56:30 PM »
I played Vista River Golf and Social Club/fka (briefly) Tegavah/fka Vista Verde yesterday. I’ve played this Ken Kavanaugh-designed course from time to time since shortly after it opened 11 years ago.  I’ve always enjoyed playing it—fair but challenging, with some really good greensites and greens and use of the washes that run through the property.  I was looking forward to seeing what Tom Lehman did to the course. In short, I was underwhelmed with the major changes that were made (the new 1st  and 18th holes and, they say, the 14th  (formerly 15th ) though I didn’t really see anything significant) and surprised at the lack of real “improvements” to the course.

The straightaway opening hole (somewhat on the corridor of the former 9th hole) is now a downhill par 4 that is nearly driveable for the longer hitters. The left to right slope of the fairway will leave most players a 75-100 yard blind approach from a valley over a yawning bunker; perhaps there is a small window to find on the left side of the fairway where it isn’t blind or one can lay back to about 150 yards before the valley but who wants to hit a 5 iron off the first tee? I just found it to be a strange, compromised first hole that, like most of the major changes, was done to fit the course to the new large clubhouse on the hill that is under construction.

As Matthew says in his post, the new 18th hole is really boring—a very wide bunkerless fairway leaves a mid to short iron to a green nicely positioned beneath the new clubhouse; the old 10th along the same corridor was really challenging and I thought the sloped green was very good too. The new green has some slope but the hole just has nothing compelling about it.

As for the rest of the course, since I liked what was there, I guess “less is more”. The washes were cleaned up, which should make them more playable if you end up there*.  Quite a bit of turf was added (e.g.  around the par three 3rd (former 2nd)) and 10th (former 11th), and the drivable 8th (former 7th) has more turf and less desert to deal with.  Aside from the addition of glaring white sand seemingly imported from Augusta National, I didn’t think the bunkering changed very much. That’s OK with me as I liked the existing bunkering.  Overall, I think Lehman did just what the owner wanted:  Getting the course situated around the new clubhouse with some softening and clean-up. The really good holes out there, which for me are (current hole #s) 3, 6, 7, 8, 10, 11 and 16, are pretty much untouched.   
The whole thing smelled like an owner trying to pry nicer views (which I did notice, especially from the practice area!) and home sales from the property. Not that there’s anything wrong with that. FYI there’s massive home and infrastructure construction ongoing there so the golf is not currently a serene communion with nature. I don’t know if it’s spec homes or if they have buyers but they’re clearly in “sell” mode. Also, most of the once-pristine back nine now has homes or construction, and the middle of the back nine has been turned from native desert vegetation to dirt waiting for homes. So relative to a few years back, they’ve paved paradise and put up a parking lot…  good luck Shea Homes!       

Bottom line: Vista River remains on my list of courses to visit when I’m in the area, but it didn’t move up the list.

*For those who played there before the changes, was there a drainage ditch/wash 50 years in front of the par 5 6th (now 7th) green? I didn’t remember it being there and it seems very odd, as does the cart path running across the fairway next to it….
Twitter: @Deneuchre

Matthew Petersen

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Re: Tegavah (f/k/a Vista Verde) "partial redesign"?
« Reply #20 on: January 10, 2017, 10:34:11 PM »

*For those who played there before the changes, was there a drainage ditch/wash 50 years in front of the par 5 6th (now 7th) green? I didn’t remember it being there and it seems very odd, as does the cart path running across the fairway next to it….


Doug,


The second wash crossing at #7 (previously #6) is new. There used to be a center line bunker in the fairway just short of where the cart path crosses the fairway. It is awkward, but I've always found that hole awkward anyway.


I agree with you overall. The basic bones of the course remain and are better than a lot of courses out this way. But I do feel like what's there now is somewhat less than what was there originally. But if this version is maintainable, sustainable and can actually survive, then that's for the better.

Steve_ Shaffer

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"Some of us worship in churches, some in synagogues, some on golf courses ... "  Adlai Stevenson
Hyman Roth to Michael Corleone: "We're bigger than US Steel."
Ben Hogan “The most important shot in golf is the next one”

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