[paul cowley]

IMO

[Greg Chambers]

I managed a course in Colorado...we ended up having to line a few bunkers due to the migration of clay into the sand due to the frost/thaw heave cycle...is this an example of poor design?

[Patrick_Mucci]

Greg,


I've seen similar conditions in Florida, where shell/rock migrated toward the surface, possibly due to the low lying land and the high water table.

[David Minogue]

Paul, how do you come to that assumption???


 I don't see what the use of liners have got to do with the design,not everyone has the luxury of building on pure sand sites.


I would say that expensive bunker liners have become a go to in bunker construction however there are other affordable options available.



Cheers,
David.

[Ally Mcintosh]

Given that Paul is Paul and not some no-name know-it-all, I'll hazard a guess that there's going to be a fair amount of reasonable sense and thought behind his opinion.
 
So I'm looking forward to hearing his basis and hopefully learning something in the process.

[Mike_Young]

I think I see where Paul is coming from and can agree.  The biggest issue will be defining "poor design".  For instance, is it "poor design" if you have an entire fairway that drains into a bunker or if water leaves a green and drains into a bunker?  Some might do such and say it is part of the strategy to have a green roll a ball into a bunker such as we saw during the US Open.  I don't know the answer to that question and have to assume it will vary amongst individuals.  Now, if "poor design" was to mean building a flashed bunker in clay and allowing water to run into the bunker from other areas other than irrigation or rain water, then YES, bunker liners are the results of poor design.  IMHO, if the soils or conditions are known and such a bunker will wash then why would you not build a grassed face, flat bottomed bunker to fit the situation?
Each archie may have different thoughts on what is a good, acceptable bunker and each may argue hazard conditions and how they should be maintained.  If one thinks bunkers are to be conditioned on a level with greens maintenance then perhaps the various liners will be needed.  But in most cases it's just another thing that increases cost etc. 

[Peter Pallotta]

Any architect who is worth his pay doesn't design or route a course in theory, he does so in practice, i.e. on a given site, with specific topographical and geological features and qualities, and usually under a range of restrictions (environmental and otherwise).  We would justly criticize the architect who automatically slapped down the same routing and hole templates on a sea-side site as he did on an inland, heavily treed park-land site.  Why wouldn't we similarly criticize an architect who chose to design, create and position the same kind of bunkers (no matter how strategically and aesthetically justified they might be) on a sandy site as he did on a clay site, or in a rainy climate as he did in a dry climate? And if design/architecture is also in part engineering, why shouldn't we expect that an architect figure out both the playability and maintainability of such site-and-region-specific bunkering, as well as the practical/necessary relationship between such bunkering and the fairways and greens? If bunker liners are used, it's either because an architect wants to have his cake and eat it too, or because he is happy enough to take short-cuts (that are so common he knows he won't be blamed), or because he simply can not or has not worked through what a given site entails/demands of him and his design in its fullest sense.

Peter (AKA "No name Know it All"  )

[paul cowley]

Mike and Peter are on point. Personally I would never saddle a course with the built-in need for what I consider bunker diapers.

[Mike_Young]

Peter,
You are forgetting one thing.  The client.  If a signature comes to a particular site and he has marching orders to put a specific style of bunker on a particular site he can do it and get by with it since his main mission in most cases is to sell lots.  However, your statements hold true for the majority of design work on the majority of courses. 

[Stuart Hallett]

I think it helps when the GCA appreciates the hard work of maintaining bunkers and repairing washout damage after every storm. Extensive shaping goes into green complexes but rarely enough around bunkers. If built properly, liners then become a luxury choice, as opposed to an obligation because of bad design.

[Tom_Doak]

At Forest Dunes I budgeted to line the green side bunkers (at the superintendent's urging), but the client didn't want to spend the money.  After some investigation it was revealed that only four of the bunkers on the existing course had issues with rocks (after ten years).  I wouldn't spend my own money to line every bunker just because 5% of them will become a problem later, but I guess others have a different threshold... particularly when they are spending Other People's Money.

[David Minogue]

Not to reiterate too much of the previous comments, liners are primarily to defend from migration of soils and prevent contamination of the bunker sand, some products assist in drainage and others are used to maintain sand on steep faces. There are many courses which have utilized liners effectively, and others who haven't. Much of what was commented on regarding water running into bunkers is down to either poor design and supervision by the architect or poor shaping by the contractor. Liners are a useful tool which can if done correctly assist the architect in creating practical and artistic hazards.



   
   

[Kyle Harris]

An extreme viewpoint, and perhaps where Mr. Paul Cowley is headed with this post, is that a site where soil migration is a problem is a not a site suited to bunkers.

[Mike_Young]

I have the utmost respect for golf supts and their striving to produce the best product the industry has made available but so often the private club environment has afforded such items as bunker liners , wider cart paths etc because there are initiation fees always there for capital improvements.  So many clubs now have no or much smaller initiation fees and some of these luxuries wil have to change.    For example, spending $500,000 to clear up a couple of wet areas on a hole that is unplayable for a day or two after a heavy rain is rarely justified when you put a pencil to it.

But I have one other question relating to this bunker subject.  Do you guys think bunker conditioning has a direct effect on strategy for a good player?   I say hell yes it does.  A bunker with nooks and crannies, unraked and uneven,  and areas that may not allow escape vs. a well maintained bunker with a known lie have a tremendous affect on how a good player determines a shot from say 150 yards or more.  And if that is true why and how did we get to where we spend so much money on damn bunkers?  I think I know the answer but would like to hear other thoughts.

[Mike_Young]

An extreme viewpoint, and perhaps where Mr. Paul Cowley is headed with this post, is that a site where soil migration is a problem is a not a site suited to bunkers.

AMEN

[paul cowley]

Choosing practical options is the mother of good design. Artificial options are the devil. Choose wisely with other peoples money.

[Peter Pallotta]

Or I suppose you could say: choose wisely, no matter who is paying for it. Just because you can do something doesn't mean you should do it. But I guess that approach nowadays seems naive and weak-willed, as it flies in the face of the prevailing "can do" attitude and of a self-centered focus on satisfying any and all personal wants (as long as there's enough money to pay for it). 

Years ago, I left the profession I cared about in part because I couldn't figure out how to satisfy the client while also satisfying myself and doing work I thought genuinely worth doing -- so I know very well that this balancing act is not easy.  But to be honest, I've long ago grown tired of reading about architects citing client demands as the reason for their design choices.

[Steve Lang]

   All I know is when I hit the bottom of a PermaBunker I curse the inventor and the horse he rode in on...

[paul cowley]

Thanks Peter...on your advice I sagely inserted wisely! and you are so right about a client's demands. A good designer leads a client through the various options...not the other way around.

[paul cowley]

I the early 70's I was a greenskeeper at PB, and as the head of Special Projects (just me, as the Portugee fisherman/greenskeepers rarely liked to get off their gang mowers), one of my duties was re building bunker faces that had collapsed...largely as the result of sand spray buildup that caused the lips to become unstable.


I learned to excavate the face down to the base of the bunker and then rebuild with stacked sod or packed earth with a wide foundation and create a almost vertical face...a batter of about 2" a vertical foot...and the re-sod the lip and add back the sand. The vertical face allows for the rain/irrigation water to drop directly down to the bunker floor without contamination from the bunker face. Good drainage on the sloping bunker floor is important to get the water out fast. I wouldn't build the edge higher than a greenskeeper could reach down with the long handled hay rakes we used back then to pull the sand back up the face during the final cleanup pass when raking a bunker.


I've used variations of this method in all types of hard soil situations...clay/rock, red clay, gumbo...the past 40 years with good success because it allows for creative/practical solutions and nothing is 'fixed' in place to have to work around.


Pebble would have been a nightmare with bunker diapers because they don't stop the problem of sand spray build up...but they sure would interfere with a repair solution. They are probably best suited for a landfill.

[paul cowley]

Oh...and the only thing constant in course design is change, and it's best to allow for simple solutions. Having to change diapers a course's entire life is not one of them. IM

[Don Mahaffey]

The issue is liners are becoming an "industry standard", which means not using them is seen as cutting corners by many Superintendents.
What liners should be, IMO, is an option, for certain situations; they shouldn't a given.

[Adrian_Stiff]

If you have sand on a slope when it rains it will wash out, in extreme rain very little is left on the face. So is the answer not to have sand on the face? Often we hear how balls should gather into the bunker, this means water will too, is the answer not to gather balls at the expense of water.

It is all about budgets and at one end it is best not to have any at all. Bunkers are expense to maintain. It is not so much about good or poor design more a case of designing a golf course with a view to the future costs of maintaining it.

On a separate we have been trialling lining our bunkers with astro-turf. The cost is zero for the AS. Just use the stuff getting thrown out for hockey pitches/football. We are doing this to stop the clay/silt migration and to stop and rock or stone outcrop.

[paul cowley]

Adrian - using a vertical face largely stops the clay silt issues...I'm guessing you have an sloping base that leaves the soils exposed after heavy rains. Pulling the sand back up the face after a rain event is part of routine maintenance...as is picking up loose impediments found while raking. Freeze/thaw rock exposure happens at a glacial pace...not like popcorn coming out of an open kettle. It's normally quite manageable.

[Forrest Richardson]

Paul, you ignorant slut! Not really.


It depends on where you are working and the native soils. Nearly all of my projects for 30+ years have been in rocky terrain where, despite popular belief, rocks migrate up as soil temperatures change. I am no longer a fan of fabric liners, although we have used it for several projects. Most of this has been at the urging of owners and superintendents. StaLoc and other soil sealing agents have been used on our work with some success.


My approach now — when a liner may be needed — is the Better Billy Bunker system. I know how long rock (gravel) lasts, I trust the bonding polymer, and I have seen what a tremendous benefit this type of liner provides.


As for trying to hold sand on a steep bank — that is pure crap. You cannot hold sand at any angle steeper than it naturally rests at when piled. The only thing you can do it to capture some particles of sand on steep installed carpet-like materials. Liners are to for holding sand an an angle that is unnatural — that part I agree with.

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