[J Sadowsky]

Just reading through some of the posts and was thinking about a par 3 that was designed to play entirely different on a day to day basis by using different flag location or tee placement (not seniors vs tips, I mean for the same scorecord).  Nor do I mean just a slightly different shot; what I mean is a hole that was essentially two different golf holes depending on the setup.  Are there good examples?  Bonus points for a hole that is two "templates" in one (e.g., short, redan, biarritz, drop, eden, etc.).

[Carl Rogers]

10th hole at Pacific Dunes

[Jon Cavalier]

The 10th at Pacific Dunes is the first hole that came to mind for me as well. Here's a look from both tees:


Upper tee:



Lower tee:





Of course, there's also the 9th at Chambers Bay:


Upper tee:



Lower Tee:

[Jon Cavalier]

And of course there are the two excellent par 3s at Dunes Club, which have alternate tees and multiple pins to create near infinite variety.


Hole 2
Left Tee:



Right Tee:



Reverse View:





Hole 7:
Low left tee:



Center Tee:



Far Right Tee:

[Tyler Kearns]

9th hole at Kingsley features two different teeing grounds at 90 degrees from each other.


Facing North



Facing East



TK

[Jamey Bryan]

Pat Mucci started a similar thread a few years ago that identified a fair number of courses with this type of hole.  None could be characterized as multiple template plays, however.

Here's a link to that thread:

http://www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,49038.0.html

Jamey

[Carl Rogers]

do not have any pics, but the 16th at the Golden Horseshoe, has an upper tee (this is the usual pic taken of the hole) and a lower tee down and to the left.
 
almost all the par 3's at Tobacco Road (except Hole No. 3) and Royal New Kent have so many tee & pin combinations its is hard to quantify

[Doug Siebert]

My home course has one with two greens and multiple teeing areas. When built in 1953 there were no fewer than seven different teeing locations encompassing about 135* in directional options.  Now there are two main areas for regular & back tees, plus a front area with women's/senior tees.  Not shown is a third back tee at 235 yards that is only used during Big Ten or minitour type events, it is behind and to the left of the right tee.

The tees on the right are used probably 80% of the time, going to the two greens about half the time each.  When the tees are on the left play is generally to the left green; the left tee to right green setup probably only appears less than a week per season.  The distances are shown are for the right tee to the right green.  From that tee to the left green is about 20 yards shorter.  From the left tee to the left green is around 150 from the tips, another 45 yards or so to the right green.  For scale, the entire area of each green (including surrounding fringe and rough) is slightly smaller than the 17th at TPC Sawgrass.  When playing on a blustery day, especially into a stiff north wind, it can be a really intimidating shot as the right tee is elevated 30 or 40 feet above the level of the green.

Ignoring the tee changes, this is the only original RBH hole left on the course.

[Tom_Doak]

We have 5 such holes on the new course at Forest Dunes ... but it's wilder than that, because you are playing back and forth over the same area to the green on the OTHER end when you reverse the course.  So, ten of the 18 greens are used for a par-3 in one direction or the other.

[Greg Clark]

My home course has one with two greens and multiple teeing areas. When built in 1953 there were no fewer than seven different teeing locations encompassing about 135* in directional options.  Now there are two main areas for regular & back tees, plus a front area with women's/senior tees.  Not shown is a third back tee at 235 yards that is only used during Big Ten or minitour type events, it is behind and to the left of the right tee.

The tees on the right are used probably 80% of the time, going to the two greens about half the time each.  When the tees are on the left play is generally to the left green; the left tee to right green setup probably only appears less than a week per season.  The distances are shown are for the right tee to the right green.  From that tee to the left green is about 20 yards shorter.  From the left tee to the left green is around 150 from the tips, another 45 yards or so to the right green.  For scale, the entire area of each green (including surrounding fringe and rough) is slightly smaller than the 17th at TPC Sawgrass.  When playing on a blustery day, especially into a stiff north wind, it can be a really intimidating shot as the right tee is elevated 30 or 40 feet above the level of the green.

Ignoring the tee changes, this is the only original RBH hole left on the course.

First hole I thought of Doug.  I hadn't been back to Finkbine for several years, and did so about 5 years ago.  The conditioning had improved significantly from the 80's  and the greens had become very difficult.  The removal of the tow rope ride to 14 tee broke my heart a little.

[BHoover]

The 17th at Sunridge Canyon in Fountain Hills, AZ (designed by Keith Foster) features multiple teeing options. Each time I played it, the tee has been in a different location. Almost like the 9th at Kingsley, the teeing grounds are several hundred yards apart, meaning you tee off from the far left or far right. The green is a huge, almost boomerang design. The hole played roughly 190-210 when I played it, but significantly downhill.

Unfortunately, I could not find a photo that does the hole justice.

[Jason Topp]

There are a million examples of these but what makes this approach work and what makes it not work? 
My proposal - if the lesser option is still a very good hole, then the idea works.
 The 10th at Pacific Dunes offers either a great view or a good tough hole.    That seems to work just fine.
   
 

[BHoover]

Good point, Jason. I think this works if the green is one that can accept both types of shots or angles. If, for example, the green works when it's a 115 yard shot downhill from the left, but the shot from the right is 230 yards to a green that is in no way meant to accept that type of shot, then it just doesn't work.

In my opinion, the 9th at Kingsley is both great and controversial. Great in the sense that the hole plays so differently from either angle. It undoubtedly works when you're hitting 8 iron (or less) from either angle. Controversial in the sense that it's tough to see how you play the hole from the back tee with a 225 yard shot, particularly to that front right pin. But regardless, it's fun because who cares what you score there?

[Doug Siebert]

First hole I thought of Doug.  I hadn't been back to Finkbine for several years, and did so about 5 years ago.  The conditioning had improved significantly from the 80's  and the greens had become very difficult.  The removal of the tow rope ride to 14 tee broke my heart a little.

Unfortunately that trolley kept breaking down, and with fewer people walking I guess they couldn't justify the repeated expense of fixing it any longer. Luckily they built a new concrete cartpath through the woods north of where the trolley was, the old gravel path that went up and around behind 16 tee and 15 green meant at least a quarter mile walk when the trolley was broken!

[J Sadowsky]

There are a million examples of these but what makes this approach work and what makes it not work? 
My proposal - if the lesser option is still a very good hole, then the idea works.
 The 10th at Pacific Dunes offers either a great view or a good tough hole.    That seems to work just fine.
 

I guess there are a ton where the tees are doing the work; how about the greens?  Any greens where the shot is entirely different based on where on the green the flag is put?  Obviously, every hole will have this to some extent, so I am looking for extreme examples.


PS - Strantz was where my original thoughts were when I wrote the OP.


PPS - Corollary:  Of holes that have two distinct teeing areas, are there any that raise interesting questions about possible flag positions?  Is there a part of the green that is only "in play" from one teeing ground, but essentially out of play for the other?

[Jud_T]

Actually Kingsley #9 now also has the Volcano tee which stretches to 230 (?) and is between the other two teeing angles:

[Tom_Doak]

PS - Strantz was where my original thoughts were when I wrote the OP.


PPS - Corollary:  Of holes that have two distinct teeing areas, are there any that raise interesting questions about possible flag positions?  Is there a part of the green that is only "in play" from one teeing ground, but essentially out of play for the other?

The first hole I thought of when I read your post was the 6th at Tobacco Road.  I was kind of shocked when it wasn't called, and the first hole that came up was the 10th at Pacific, which I didn't think of right away.


The hole at Tobacco Road was sort of the inspiration for some of our holes at Forest Dunes, where one hole will approach the green at 90 degrees from the other hole, instead of the holes playing back to back along the same line.  At FD we have a similar day-to-day variety on #6, 8, 10, 11, 12, 13 and 18.  I didn't really set out to do it so often, it was more a case of making the routing fit the ground, but once we had it on paper, it was a memory of the hole at Tobacco Road that made me realize how it should work.  [We also have a couple of greens where you are approaching from a similar angle regardless of which direction you're playing, because they are stuck in a corner of the property.]


The one criteria I would have for building the sort of hole contemplated in this post is that the tees should both be easily accessible from the previous green.

[BHoover]

Jud, I've played the 9th from that volcano tee a few times now. It's a lot of fun when you're just playing it for the hell of it, but I'm not sure I'd want to stand on that tee knowing I needed a 3 to win a match!

[J Sadowsky]

PS - Strantz was where my original thoughts were when I wrote the OP.


PPS - Corollary:  Of holes that have two distinct teeing areas, are there any that raise interesting questions about possible flag positions?  Is there a part of the green that is only "in play" from one teeing ground, but essentially out of play for the other?

The first hole I thought of when I read your post was the 6th at Tobacco Road.  I was kind of shocked when it wasn't called, and the first hole that came up was the 10th at Pacific, which I didn't think of right away.


The hole at Tobacco Road was sort of the inspiration for some of our holes at Forest Dunes, where one hole will approach the green at 90 degrees from the other hole, instead of the holes playing back to back along the same line.  At FD we have a similar day-to-day variety on #6, 8, 10, 11, 12, 13 and 18.  I didn't really set out to do it so often, it was more a case of making the routing fit the ground, but once we had it on paper, it was a memory of the hole at Tobacco Road that made me realize how it should work.  [We also have a couple of greens where you are approaching from a similar angle regardless of which direction you're playing, because they are stuck in a corner of the property.]


The one criteria I would have for building the sort of hole contemplated in this post is that the tees should both be easily accessible from the previous green.

Yes.  There was also a hole (15?) on Royal New Kent with three tiers where the shot was completely different depending on which tier the hole was placed, so that the preferred shot either had to be very high (at the low tier) to keep on a postage stamp, or you would need a long shot with a "backboard" in play if on the 3rd tier.

[Michael Wharton-Palmer]

Jud, I've played the 9th from that volcano tee a few times now. It's a lot of fun when you're just playing it for the hell of it, but I'm not sure I'd want to stand on that tee knowing I needed a 3 to win a match!

Or even a 5

Love it from there...I can feel it coming again!!!!

[Dan Kelly]

There are three par-3s on my home course (Midland Hills CC, Roseville, Minnesota; Seth Raynor, 1919) that play dramatically differently from back tees, middle tees and front tees.


They are the Eden No. 7, the Biarritz No. 12, and the Redan No. 16.


Unfortunately, the course setup rarely (too rarely, IMO) moves the back and middle tees up far enough to show the members how much variety is possible, even if they play the same tees every time. I'm working on that...

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