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Jason Way

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Re: Nicklaus says golf is too slow, expensive, and difficult
« Reply #25 on: June 06, 2015, 12:01:39 PM »
P.S.  The kind of action that JN could be taking with no negative impact to his business whatsoever, for example, would be something like what Tom did at Marygrove. 

Again though, he can do what he wants, and that's all fine with me.  But if your words don't match your actions, you are opening yourself up to be called out as a hypocrite. 
"Golf is a science, the study of a lifetime, in which you can exhaust yourself but never your subject." - David Forgan

Bill Brightly

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Re: Nicklaus says golf is too slow, expensive, and difficult
« Reply #26 on: June 06, 2015, 12:31:09 PM »
I actually feel badly for Jack. You cannot blame him for the courses he built. There was a huge demand for "pro-style hard," plushly conditioned,  expensive to build and maintain golf courses. He met that demand and was incredibly successful. I'll count myself as part of that demand: for many years I believed that a course like Muirfield Village was just about the epitome of a course that I would like to play.

But my tastes have changed, and clearly the golf industry has changed. I think there is a noticable backlash to overly had golf courses. Jack is not stupid, he knows that he built many of those courses. That has to bother him a bit.

Marc Haring

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Nicklaus says golf is too slow, expensive, and difficult
« Reply #27 on: June 06, 2015, 12:52:17 PM »
I think Tiger will be feeling Jack's course is a expensive, slow and way too hard.

John Kavanaugh

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Re: Nicklaus says golf is too slow, expensive, and difficult
« Reply #28 on: June 06, 2015, 01:12:37 PM »
Golf is only expensive at a course that you can't afford to play. There is a course in every city in America that cost around $10 an hour.  Cheap by any entertainment standard.

John Kavanaugh

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Nicklaus says golf is too slow, expensive, and difficult
« Reply #29 on: June 06, 2015, 01:54:15 PM »
If you are concerned about pace of play, join a private club. The problem with this is that it takes sacrifice. You can't own a lake cabin, you can't own a boat and you can't pay for a divorce. You probably can't even let your children play on a travel team or travel much yourself. Then if you think golf is too difficult you need to practice and get in shape. Get off the internet and do some stretching or chip and putt for an hour. Sorry, but you're not gonna have it all without a touch of hard work and sacrifice. That's not the modern way.


Gib_Papazian

Re: Nicklaus says golf is too slow, expensive, and difficult
« Reply #30 on: June 06, 2015, 02:42:33 PM »
That quote was enough to gag a dog. While R.T. Jones Sr. was the Typhoid Mary of golf architecture, Jack Nicklaus was the AIDS virus. Over the many years, I have played and rated 29 Nicklaus courses and with one lone exception (Mayacama), they are indulgent, arrogant and abusive towards the average player. The New Course at Grand Cypress doesn’t count because Jack was trying to build a homage St. Andrews - although even his Road Hole has a bias to the high cut.

If I want to be horsewhipped, there are plenty of S&M bars all over San Francisco. Given the popularity of Nicklaus courses, there must be an insatiable demand for self-flagellation, where middle-handicappers stand in line to pay 200 bucks a fuck to have the greatest player who ever lived urinate on them 18 times in a row. Last time I endured Pasadera, we played behind a group of cigar-smoking 30-something imbeciles who insisted on “playing the whole golf course” - which meant a six hour round in a hurricane where not one of them broke 100.

Naturally, because I’m a snarky prick, I asked them in the bar how they liked the course and their rousing endorsement cemented my view that nobody ought to play from the back tees unless they can show a handicap card of five or less. Even a five handicap is iffy. Dove Mountain was the final straw - after which I announced my retirement from electroshock therapy on my 55 year-old testicles.

The event is called “Golf ‘Till You Drop” - the object being to play as much golf in 2 1/2 days as possible. The venue moves every year and my coterie and I normally average 45 holes a day, stopping only for beer and a sandwich between rounds. At Dove Mountain - and we do not suck in the skill department - after 27 holes everybody looked like abused dogs in an animal rescue shelter. If reasonably good players are exhausted and frustrated from the 6500 yard tees, who did Jack think was going to play this golf course? Yes, there was a PGA Tour event there, but what about the other 99.99% of the rounds?

We can all thank C&C, Doak, Eckenrode, DeVries, Neal and the rest for helping chase the creature back into the lagoon where he belongs. Maybe the economic downturn of golf will force some sanity back into the game. I don’t want to hear any bullshit about owner expectations and demands, Emperor Tommy and I went out to Rustic Canyon late yesterday and nobody is going to tell me top quality golf cannot be obtained for a fraction of the usual wasteful madness.

The Superintendent (who does a fabulous job) uses almost zero chemicals and a bare minimum of water. The place makes money hand-over-fist with green fees so cheap I thought the pro shop was being nice to me because I’m a rater (I never accept freebies on cheap public tracks). For $39 I had an absolute blast. The whole mess mirrors what is happening in my other life. Studios cannot even imagine a legitimate feature film like ours made for less than eight figures - yet indie filmmakers consistently produce terrific movies for a fraction of the cost.

Yes, land costs vary - but I stumbled across one of the best courses I’ve played in years (Ridge Creek- John Fought) in the middle of downtown Dinuba. For $46, I played a wonderfully creative golf course that could easily hold its own in Bandon. Not hyperbole, I mean that - yet construction costs were modest and the place turns a healthy profit for Kemper every year. Given the same piece of land, can you imagine what kind of monstrous bucket of phlegm Jack or (shudder) Rees would have coughed up?

Jack, Rees and Fazio (although his courses are not generally too difficult for the average player) richly deserve the firehose of criticism they get for turning golf back into a rich man’s sport. Like everything else, the market is starting to correct itself - and perhaps the current generation will have the opportunity to remodel all these indulgent disasters into courses that serve the game instead of designer egos.        
« Last Edit: June 07, 2015, 01:16:02 AM by Gib Papazian »

Marc Haring

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Nicklaus says golf is too slow, expensive, and difficult
« Reply #31 on: June 06, 2015, 03:16:26 PM »
Gib

You've got to do some stand up man.

I'd pay good money for that gold.

Jonathan Mallard

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Nicklaus says golf is too slow, expensive, and difficult
« Reply #32 on: June 06, 2015, 05:47:40 PM »

That quote was enough to gag a dog. While R.T. Jones Sr. was the Typhoid Mary of golf architecture, Jack Nicklaus was the AIDS virus. Over the many years, I have played and rated 29 Nicklaus courses and with one lone exception (Mayacama), they are indulgent, arrogant and abusive towards the average player. The New Course at Grand Cypress doesn’t count because Jack was trying to build a homage St. Andrews - although even his Road Hole has a bias to the high cut.

If I want to be horsewhipped, there are plenty of S&M bars all over San Francisco. Given the popularity of Nicklaus courses, there must be an insatiable demand for self-flagellation, where middle-handicappers stand in line to pay 200 bucks a fuck to have the greatest player who ever lived urinate on them 18 times in a row. Last time I endured Pasadera, we played behind a group of cigar-smoking 30-somewthing imbeciles who insisted on “playing the whole golf course” - which meant a six hour round in a hurricane where not one of them broke 100.

Naturally, because I’m a snarky prick, I asked them in the bar how they liked the course and their rousing endorsement cemented my view that nobody ought to play from the back tees unless they can show a handicap card of five or less. Even a five handicap is iffy. Dove Mountain was the final straw - after which I announced my retirement from electroshock therapy on my 55 year-old testicles.

The event is called “Golf ‘Till You Drop” - the object being to play as much golf in 2 1/2 days as possible. The venue moves every year and my coterie and I normally average 45 holes a day, stopping only for beer and a sandwich between rounds. At Dove Mountain - and we do not suck in the skill department - after 27 holes everybody looked like abused dogs in an animal rescue shelter. If reasonably good players are exhausted and frustrated from the 6500 yard tees, who did Jack think was going to play this golf course? Yes, there was a PGA Tour event there, but what about the other 99.99% of the rounds?

We can all thank C&C, Doak, Eckenrode, DeVries, Neal and the rest for helping chase the creature back into the lagoon where he belongs. Maybe the economic downturn of golf will force some sanity back into the game. I don’t want to hear any bullshit about owner expectations and demands, Emperor Tommy and I went out to Rustic Canyon late yesterday and nobody is going to tell me top quality golf cannot be obtained for a fraction of the usual wasteful madness.

The Superintendent (who does a fabulous job) uses almost zero chemicals and a bare minimum of water. The place makes money hand-over-fist with green fees so cheap I thought the pro shop was being nice to me because I’m a rater (I never accept freebies on cheap public tracks). For $39 I had an absolute blast. The whole mess mirrors what is happening in my other life. Studios cannot even imagine a legitimate feature film like ours made for less than eight figures - yet indie filmmakers consistently produce terrific movies for a fraction of the cost.

Yes, land costs vary - but I stumbled across one of the best courses I’ve played in years (Ridge Creek- John Fought) in the middle of downtown Dinuba. For $46, I played a wonderfully creative golf course that could easily hold its own in Bandon. Not hyperbole, I mean that - yet construction costs were modest and the place turns a healthy profit for Kemper every year. Given the same piece of land, can you imagine what kind of monstrous bucket of phlegm Jack or (shudder) Rees would have coughed up?

Jack, Rees and Fazio (although his courses are not generally too difficult for the average player) richly deserve the firehose of criticism they get for turning golf back into a rich man’s sport. Like everything else, the market is starting to correct itself - and perhaps the current generation will have the opportunity to remodel all these indulgent disasters into courses that serve the game instead of designer egos.         


+1

Gib - You need to write more.

Carl Rogers

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Nicklaus says golf is too slow, expensive, and difficult
« Reply #33 on: June 06, 2015, 06:00:58 PM »
To Carl Rogers:  Yes, I suppose Jack Nicklaus could build and operate $40 golf courses if he wanted to ... and lose money at them.  That is not a business model that is being done successfully by anyone today, as far as I know.  The most famous developer, Mike Keiser, has become a national hero for building $200 golf courses; ask Mike if HE wants to start building and operating $40 courses.  He is a business person; he wants to charge whatever the market will bear.  I personally have built three $40 courses ... and two of them [High Pointe and Charlotte Golf Links] are now closed.  The third [CommonGround] is run by a non-profit group, and that is the only way I see that working.
Tom, please remember Riverfront is less than $40 on the twilight rate.  less than $70 in peak times.

Could Tiger, Arnie and / or Jack set up a non-profit?
« Last Edit: June 07, 2015, 09:05:08 AM by Carl Rogers »
I decline to accept the end of man. ... William Faulkner

Mark Pavy

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Nicklaus says golf is too slow, expensive, and difficult
« Reply #34 on: June 06, 2015, 06:09:28 PM »
What's all this mention of $40 golf?

The price point and golfing model that needs focus is <$20 per round.


Carl Rogers

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Nicklaus says golf is too slow, expensive, and difficult
« Reply #35 on: June 06, 2015, 06:20:14 PM »
What's all this mention of $40 golf?

The price point and golfing model that needs focus is <$20 per round.
I assume the $20 is for those 18 years of age and below.  It should not be for me.

If we are all paying $20, then its going to be a 15 minute drive from a fairly small metropolitan area and some body is going to donate the property , I assume.
I decline to accept the end of man. ... William Faulkner

Brent Hutto

Re: Nicklaus says golf is too slow, expensive, and difficult
« Reply #36 on: June 06, 2015, 06:27:37 PM »
The supply of $20 golf courses is as large right now as it will ever be. The only places I've ever seen charging those kind of rates (assuming you're talking rack rate and not something GolfNow screwed them into) are courses trying to stay open for one more year. You're never going to see someone spend actual capital to acquire property and build a golf course with a business plan of charging under-$20 to play. That's decades out of date.

That said, in many areas you can find a perfectly cromulent round of golf for somewhere in the $20 vicinity. But those courses will gradually go NLE with their land repurposed in a way that can provide a ROI.

Jonathan Mallard

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Re: Nicklaus says golf is too slow, expensive, and difficult
« Reply #37 on: June 06, 2015, 06:33:56 PM »
The supply of $20 golf courses is as large right now as it will ever be. The only places I've ever seen charging those kind of rates (assuming you're talking rack rate and not something GolfNow screwed them into) are courses trying to stay open for one more year. You're never going to see someone spend actual capital to acquire property and build a golf course with a business plan of charging under-$20 to play. That's decades out of date.

That said, in many areas you can find a perfectly cromulent round of golf for somewhere in the $20 vicinity. But those courses will gradually go NLE with their land repurposed in a way that can provide a ROI.

Or Munis with major championship pedigrees.

See Belmont in Henrico County. And Bethpage before it was 'known.'

Mark Pavy

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Nicklaus says golf is too slow, expensive, and difficult
« Reply #38 on: June 06, 2015, 06:41:13 PM »
Carl, I don't think the price point I've mentioned would appeal to anyone on this forum. Low cost construct, low cost maintenance and low cost green fee can be profitable for an owner, I'm not saying it's easy, but it can work.

Jud_T

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Nicklaus says golf is too slow, expensive, and difficult
« Reply #39 on: June 06, 2015, 08:51:51 PM »
Apparently Jack was given some of the brown acid when he designed The Bear at Grand Traverse.
Golf is a game. We play it. Somewhere along the way we took the fun out of it and charged a premium to be punished.- - Ron Sirak

JJShanley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Nicklaus says golf is too slow, expensive, and difficult
« Reply #40 on: June 06, 2015, 09:00:41 PM »
Carl, I don't think the price point I've mentioned would appeal to anyone on this forum. Low cost construct, low cost maintenance and low cost green fee can be profitable for an owner, I'm not saying it's easy, but it can work.

The problem being that although some folks would happily play such courses if that represented the only way they could afford to play golf, I suspect we have a large percentage of the golfing population in this country who want "unbelievable" conditions wherever they play.

jeffwarne

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Re: Nicklaus says golf is too slow, expensive, and difficult
« Reply #41 on: June 06, 2015, 09:38:42 PM »

 Given the same piece of land, can you imagine what kind of monstrous bucket of phlegm Jack or (shudder) Rees would have coughed up?

Jack, Rees and Fazio (although his courses are not generally too difficult for the average player) richly deserve the firehose of criticism they get for turning golf back into a rich man’s sport. Like everything else, the market is starting to correct itself - and perhaps the current generation will have the opportunity to remodel all these indulgent disasters into courses that serve the game instead of designer egos.        


and for years the trio has fed their ego off the compliments of those predisposed to like(or afraid to not like) their courses-which for a long time only poured gas on the fire-which evidently burned off all their clothes ;).
"Let's slow the damned greens down a bit, not take the character out of them." Tom Doak
"Take their focus off the grass and put it squarely on interesting golf." Don Mahaffey

JStewart

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Re: Nicklaus says golf is too slow, expensive, and difficult
« Reply #42 on: June 06, 2015, 10:08:13 PM »
Apparently Jack was given some of the brown acid when he designed The Bear at Grand Traverse.
A very difficult course, but one that doesn't seem quite as hard with modern technology.
I'm torn on Nicklaus. Some of his courses I've really enjoyed (Harbor Shores in MI, Twin Eagles in FL, and Old Greenwood in CA), and others have made me want to pull my hair out (Old Corkscrew, Grand Cypress, Ritz Carlton Club in Jupiter).

I'm pretty comfortable with Fazio. You're generally going to get something in the range of decent to really nice and it's always player-friendly for the most part.

Peter Pallotta

Re: Nicklaus says golf is too slow, expensive, and difficult
« Reply #43 on: June 06, 2015, 10:25:55 PM »
There's a story about an old veteran line producer from the studio days who came back in the early 1970s and made a terrific film for $1 million (when the average cost was about $5 million). Someone asked him why there weren't more good films being made for $1 million, and he answered "'Cause you can't steal a million dollars from a million dollar picture". Which is to say, I suspect that clients and architects both have always known it doesn't take a boatload of money to build a quality course -- they just tried to keep everyone else from knowing it for as long as they could. And the 30- somethings with cigars were a perfect match for such clients, because for them the joy came not from the game itself, and certainly not from the game being played affordably, but instead from the thrill of being able to pay way too much. For a while there it was the perfect marriage and reception, catered by the Wolfgang Pucks of the world. It's just that now, after the very expensive divorce, I think the presiding priests and rabbis are feeling guilty that they went along with the charade for so long.
« Last Edit: June 08, 2015, 07:56:56 AM by PPallotta »

Mike_Young

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Re: Nicklaus says golf is too slow, expensive, and difficult
« Reply #44 on: June 06, 2015, 10:35:31 PM »
Peter, you nailed it there....
"just standing on a corner in Winslow Arizona"

RJ_Daley

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Re: Nicklaus says golf is too slow, expensive, and difficult
« Reply #45 on: June 06, 2015, 10:43:52 PM »
Yup, that is a good analogy there Pietro.
No actual golf rounds were ruined or delayed, nor golf rules broken, in the taking of any photographs that may be displayed by the above forum user.

Bill Brightly

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Nicklaus says golf is too slow, expensive, and difficult
« Reply #46 on: June 07, 2015, 12:04:47 AM »
Peter and Gib are saying the same thing. The written word is an amazing. Vive la diffe'rence!

noonan

Re: Nicklaus says golf is too slow, expensive, and difficult
« Reply #47 on: June 07, 2015, 01:18:28 AM »
There's a lot to respond to here.  Mostly, Mike Young has it nailed.  Jack is getting too much blame here, though that's the yang of having always gotten too much credit.  Though, he and his company COULD stop trying to export the failed, expensive brand of golf to every other country on the globe.

To Carl Rogers:  Yes, I suppose Jack Nicklaus could build and operate $40 golf courses if he wanted to ... and lose money at them.  That is not a business model that is being done successfully by anyone today, as far as I know.  The most famous developer, Mike Keiser, has become a national hero for building $200 golf courses; ask Mike if HE wants to start building and operating $40 courses.  He is a business person; he wants to charge whatever the market will bear.  I personally have built three $40 courses ... and two of them [High Pointe and Charlotte Golf Links] are now closed.  The third [CommonGround] is run by a non-profit group, and that is the only way I see that working.

To Jerry Kessler:  You are blaming the architect because you're playing from a tee that's too far back?  And then you're complaining about the guys in front of you playing from too far back?  Think that through.

Jack has always had a difficult time relating to the average golfer.  He spent fifty years of his life always trying to improve or to maintain his ability, and never just going out to play golf for fun.  He is the wrong guy to speak for golf.  But so is everyone else who makes a living at it.  It would be nice if some of these guys would retire from the business, and devote some time to trying to fix things without a profit motive in mind.  Golf needs to make room for a younger generation to try something different.



No I am not blaming the architect. I am blaming the local pro for adding in senior tees where the white tees were. This effectively put 25 years on the white and blue tees on each holes.

Sean_A

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Re: Nicklaus says golf is too slow, expensive, and difficult
« Reply #48 on: June 07, 2015, 02:44:23 AM »
People keep hammering on about expensive golf when the price driver for a lot of courses is the market, not construction cost and land prices.  I am not saying courses can't be built cheaper, regardless, people work/invest and want a wage/return.  Its very difficult to have it both ways with excellent design on good terrain, in a good location for less than $50.  There is a reason this site focuses on about 150 courses in the world...and why folks go ga ga over the odd gem which fulfills most of what the cream 150 do for significantly less money....the thing is nearly all of these ga ga courses are old and don't have the steep overheads.  Even so, many of these oldies still charge a green fee as if they did have the overheads because they can.  

Ciao
« Last Edit: June 07, 2015, 04:33:44 PM by Sean_A »
New plays planned for 2024: Dunfanaghy, Fraserburgh, Hankley Common, Ashridge, Gog Magog Old & Cruden Bay St Olaf

Mike_Young

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Re: Nicklaus says golf is too slow, expensive, and difficult
« Reply #49 on: June 07, 2015, 07:24:01 AM »
People keep hammering on about expensive golf when the price diver for a lot of courses is the market, not construction cost and land prices.  I am not saying courses can't be built cheaper, regardless, people work/invest and want a wage/return.  Its very difficult to have it both ways with excellent design on good terrain, in  good location for less than $50.  There is a reason this site focuses on about 150 courses in the world...and why folks go ga ga over the odd gem which fulfills most of what the cream 150 do for significantly less money....the thing is nearly all of these ga ga courses are old and don't have the steep overheads.  Even so, many of these oldies still charge a green fee as if they did have the overheads because they can. 

Ciao
Sean,
I think you are right except for the last sentence.  It often cost more to maintain than people realize.  I like using cars for analogy.  If a city police force were to go to the Mercedes dealer to purchase police cars would the local newspaper be saying " Police cars are now too expensive"?  No, because the city would know to go to the Ford or Chevrolet dealer and once there he would not be buying the "Eddie Bauer" edition because the purchasing agent would realize that the basics were the same in all and he would end up with a good solid police car.    The purchasing agent also realizes that the Ford or Chevy he purchased can be maintained for significantly less than if he had acquired the Mercedes.   Now in this economy you may notice that Mercedes has been designing and selling smaller cheaper models in order to attract a market segment that used to not be there.  The signature golf guys are doing the exact same things.  When many of these signatures let their staffs out to pasture, the staffs went into the world thinking a golf course had to be built a certain way with several layers of middlemen that many of us never had and the mindset has permeated the industry.  There are maybe 75 guys that can actually design and build a good economical golf course and know how to do it.  You can call them architect, designer, builder or whatever.  Many of the signature trained and office trained will look down at this segment much like an Ivy League dude looking at an Alabama grad.  Do you think Toro and Rainbird spend so much money on supts and the ASGCA in order to sell quick couplers?
IMHO The other main reasons we are in this expensive golf thing are housing and member owned clubs.  There would have never been the signature archie if RE had not sought it out for branding.  And the industry would not have expanded unless they had known the cost could be absorbed via the RE branding side and not the green fee or dues.  The other thing is the subsidizing factor that is in most private country clubs.  A five million dollar rework cost a 500 member club $10,000 each and if divided over 10 years it is an easy sale.  And so many of the older members are silently subsidizing the rounds played at tour private courses and as they leave people are waking up.  And because so many of the decision makesrs in country clubs, and municipalities don't know what they don't know and because the bully pulpit belongs to the signatures we will continue with expensive golf. 
"just standing on a corner in Winslow Arizona"

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