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JC Jones

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Question about the Soil/Turf at NGLA
« on: May 14, 2015, 09:16:40 AM »
Everyone I know that has played NGLA both a) loves it and b) talks about the turf.

I've either heard or read on this site that the turf at NGLA is great and that the soils there are/were perfect for golf.  So, I was confused while reading the current NGLA routing thread when I read that he thought the land was not good and had to bring in 10,000 truckloads of dirt.

Although my first question was, how did he get all that dirt out there with no roads leading to the site (which leads me to believe Mucci is on to something about the road that leads out to the site being passable by auto).

My second question was, why did he have to bring so much dirt out there to essentially cap the site if the site was supposedly the best land/soil (later, turf) for the playing of golf?
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Blake Conant

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Re: Question about the Soil/Turf at NGLA
« Reply #1 on: May 14, 2015, 09:55:07 AM »
I'm speculating, but maybe there were multiple soil profiles and one needed supplementation.  Or maybe the soil was too sandy/pebbley and needed organic mixed in. 
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PCCraig

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Re: Question about the Soil/Turf at NGLA
« Reply #2 on: May 14, 2015, 10:06:47 AM »
Probably for elevation and flood prevention?...the course is surrounded by water (ocean, ponds, etc.)...

Also, 10,000 "truckloads" may seem like a lot of dirt, but I suspect it's not as much as you might think at first.
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H.P.S.

JESII

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Re: Question about the Soil/Turf at NGLA
« Reply #3 on: May 14, 2015, 11:33:52 AM »
Some of those truckloads went to filling low areas which held as much as 4 feet of water.

Jim Kennedy calculated that 10,000 of those trucks could have capped the entire 200 acres with 2 inches of soil. Based on that math, those same 10,000 truckloads would fill 8.33 acres at 4 feet depth...so that means nobody on this site has any idea where the soil went or what the primary need was...
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Patrick_Mucci

Re: Question about the Soil/Turf at NGLA
« Reply #4 on: May 14, 2015, 11:39:48 AM »
Quote from: JC Jones on May 14, 2015, 09:16:40 AM
Everyone I know that has played NGLA both a) loves it and b) talks about the turf.

I've either heard or read on this site that the turf at NGLA is great and that the soils there are/were perfect for golf.  So, I was confused while reading the current NGLA routing thread when I read that he thought the land was not good and had to bring in 10,000 truckloads of dirt.

Although my first question was, how did he get all that dirt out there with no roads leading to the site (which leads me to believe Mucci is on to something about the road that leads out to the site being passable by auto).


My second question was, why did he have to bring so much dirt out there to essentially cap the site if the site was supposedly the best land/soil (later, turf) for the playing of golf?

JC,

I think you have to read "Scotland's Gift" where CBM and HJW first examined the site.
He claimed it was rife with swamps and bogs, hardly the ideal turf for golf.

The site has it's highs and it's lows and I suspect that the 10,000 truckloads was for some of the low areas.

The 1928 schematic reveals where some of those low and/or bog/swamp areas might have been

I suspect that the 10,000 truckloads of soil was for the remediation of those areas, making them suitable for golf
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Josh Tarble

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Re: Question about the Soil/Turf at NGLA
« Reply #5 on: May 14, 2015, 12:12:03 PM »
Quote from: Jim Sullivan on May 14, 2015, 11:33:52 AM
Some of those truckloads went to filling low areas which held as much as 4 feet of water.

Jim Kennedy calculated that 10,000 of those trucks could have capped the entire 200 acres with 2 inches of soil. Based on that math, those same 10,000 truckloads would fill 8.33 acres at 4 feet depth...so that means nobody on this site has any idea where the soil went or what the primary need was...

Does anyone know how much those trucks actually carried.  For example, if it was 500 lbs - which seems close - it could be as few as 50 of todays trucks?  That doesn't seem like much.
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Bryan Izatt

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Re: Question about the Soil/Turf at NGLA
« Reply #6 on: May 14, 2015, 12:18:43 PM »
JC,

Vis-a-vis your question about how the trucks got out to and around the site, they probably just drove up one of the dirt tracks in the area and then overland on the property (after it had been cleared).  That's how construction is still done today on sites remote from roads.  The dirt tracks and the site were probably impassible to even the small trucks of the time when there were rain events or during much of the winter.  

I wonder how they got the truckloads into the swamps if they used the dirt to fill them.  The bulldozer wasn't invented yet.

Somebody used a lot of dirt to fill the point next to the 18th tee.  It doesn't appear to have been there before the course was built.
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MCirba

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Re: Question about the Soil/Turf at NGLA
« Reply #7 on: May 14, 2015, 12:23:16 PM »
Who said anything about Trucks?

Not Macdonald.

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Josh Bills

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Re: Question about the Soil/Turf at NGLA
« Reply #8 on: May 14, 2015, 12:26:40 PM »
There is an article written by J. Sutherland for the London Daily News and published in the Boston Evening Transcript, Tuesday, April 12, 1910, p. 18 where he claims there were 5000 navvies (laborers) that helped construct the course along with a supposed "narrow gauge railway, two miles long, with branches on the herring bone principle, was to run through the centre of the course during construction."

Here's a link to the entertaining article, don't know how much is accurate, but entertaining nonetheless. 

https://news.google.com/newspapers?id=bKY-AAAAIBAJ&sjid=n1kMAAAAIBAJ&pg=715%2C5876653
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MCirba

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Re: Question about the Soil/Turf at NGLA
« Reply #9 on: May 14, 2015, 12:32:28 PM »
How do we know these weren't horse drawn cartloads?  Anyone?
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DMoriarty

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Re: Question about the Soil/Turf at NGLA
« Reply #10 on: May 14, 2015, 12:44:56 PM »
Josh, that is a great article, and much of the information is accurate.  Not sure what to think, though, of Sutherland's offhand reference to the report of the narrow guage RR, but Sutherland doesn't seem to take too seriously.  
_______________________________________________________________

Jim, JC, and Others,

The ten thousand "loads" (that is a good catch by Mike to notice that CBM didn't say truckloads) were topsoil. So it wasn't used for fill or building elevation.  It was used for growing grass.
________________________________________________________________

J.C.  

As for the nature of the soil, I believe that the issue was that the soil was mostly pure sand, and lacked the organics necessary to grow turf. Once CBM added the organics (the 10,000 loads of topsoil, I suppose) then the soil was apparently well suited for excellent turf.  
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Golf history can be quite interesting if you just let your favorite legends go and allow the truth to take you where it will.
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Josh Bills

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Re: Question about the Soil/Turf at NGLA
« Reply #11 on: May 14, 2015, 12:47:43 PM »
David and Mike,

Is it possible the 10,000 loads were like mining rail cars on narrow gauge track that could be moved around by hand pump rail cars?  I know I'm not helping to solve the problem at this point, but seems plausible. 

Josh
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MCirba

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Re: Question about the Soil/Turf at NGLA
« Reply #12 on: May 14, 2015, 12:51:50 PM »
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DMoriarty

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Re: Question about the Soil/Turf at NGLA
« Reply #13 on: May 14, 2015, 01:02:52 PM »
Josh,  

I guess anything is possible, but I'd need to see more documentation before I bought into the idea that CBM had built a spur RR up the middle of the property.   Interesting reference though.

Wouldn't building a temporary spur RR take a lot more effort than just building a road without the rails?  

___________________________________________________________________

Not sure what we are supposed to learn from those images, as they show trucks from different eras, including a UPS truck.

Here is a link to a Jan. 1 1909 trade magazine with photos of various commercial trucks for sale at that time.
https://books.google.com/books?id=xq0yAQAAMAAJ&pg=RA2-PA168&dq=dumptruck&hl=en&sa=X&ei=VtJUVc78G4K9ggSbrIKoCw&ved=0CEcQ6AEwBA#v=onepage&q=dump%20truck&f=false
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Golf history can be quite interesting if you just let your favorite legends go and allow the truth to take you where it will.
--Tom MacWood (1958-2012)

MCirba

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Re: Question about the Soil/Turf at NGLA
« Reply #14 on: May 14, 2015, 01:08:16 PM »
Pretty pricey for a dump truck at 6 Grand...what did Macdonald pay for the 200 acres again?  And he didnt have money to build a clubhouse.  And there were 10,000 loads...how many trucks do we think that took?
« Last Edit: May 14, 2015, 01:10:03 PM by MCirba »
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Sven Nilsen

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Re: Question about the Soil/Turf at NGLA
« Reply #15 on: May 14, 2015, 01:15:39 PM »
Quote from: MCirba on May 14, 2015, 01:08:16 PM
Pretty pricey for a dump truck at 6 Grand...what did Macdonald pay for the 200 acres again?  And he didnt have money to build a clubhouse.  And there were 10,000 loads...how many trucks do we think that took?

The better question is what do you think it cost him to hire the number of trucks they needed for the project?  I doubt they went out and bought a new fleet of them just to build one golf course.

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MCirba

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Re: Question about the Soil/Turf at NGLA
« Reply #16 on: May 14, 2015, 01:17:01 PM »
It also was a complication that motorized dump trucks weren't invented by 1907.  http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dump_truck
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"Persistence and determination alone are omnipotent" - Calvin Coolidge

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DMoriarty

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Re: Question about the Soil/Turf at NGLA
« Reply #17 on: May 14, 2015, 01:19:04 PM »
Quote from: Sven Nilsen on May 14, 2015, 01:15:39 PM

The better question is what do you think it cost him to hire the number of trucks they needed for the project?  I doubt they went out and bought a new fleet of them just to build one golf course.


But Sven, he said 10,000 loads, so he must have bought 10,000 trucks!
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Golf history can be quite interesting if you just let your favorite legends go and allow the truth to take you where it will.
--Tom MacWood (1958-2012)

Sven Nilsen

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Re: Question about the Soil/Turf at NGLA
« Reply #18 on: May 14, 2015, 01:19:32 PM »
Quote from: MCirba on May 14, 2015, 01:17:01 PM
It also was a complication that motorized dump trucks weren't invented by 1907.  http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dump_truck

You're reaching, Mike.

There were trucks that could haul topsoil in existence, whether they had a dump mechanism or not.
« Last Edit: May 14, 2015, 01:21:56 PM by Sven Nilsen »
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"As much as we have learned about the history of golf architecture in the last ten plus years, I'm convinced we have only scratched the surface."  A GCA Poster

"There's the golf hole; play it any way you please." Donald Ross

MCirba

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Re: Question about the Soil/Turf at NGLA
« Reply #19 on: May 14, 2015, 01:24:51 PM »
Of course and they had horse-drawn  wagons too which was a far more likely scenario.  To paraphrase that coach, "Trucks!?  Who said anything about trucks??"
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Jim_Kennedy

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Re: Question about the Soil/Turf at NGLA
« Reply #20 on: May 14, 2015, 01:25:15 PM »
A yard of topsoil weighs about 1 ton - a few hundred lbs. less if it's dry, and vice versa.
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DMoriarty

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Re: Question about the Soil/Turf at NGLA
« Reply #21 on: May 14, 2015, 01:29:17 PM »
Who cares if it was horse drawn or not? Horse drawn wagons full of topsoil still needed a road.  Or a road bed if it was a RR. 
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Golf history can be quite interesting if you just let your favorite legends go and allow the truth to take you where it will.
--Tom MacWood (1958-2012)

Bryan Izatt

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Re: Question about the Soil/Turf at NGLA
« Reply #22 on: May 14, 2015, 01:34:35 PM »
Quote from: MCirba on May 14, 2015, 12:51:50 PM
I'm not sure where Macdonald ever mentioned trucks but here's a 1907 versions used for hauling. 

http://www.google.com/search?q=1907+truck&tbm=isch&tbo=u&source=univ&fir=FxldPYbY5m4rkM%253A%252CdNq9W6Cj_XmVWM%252C_%253BWkjOFQM-zHBaEM%253A%252CrieGeKBgbhXnKM%252C_%253BP6WGPrsduiO5pM%253A%252CAHyStjYILjWL9M%252C_%253B_WDvvOTqty9AGM%253A%252CAHyStjYILjWL9M%252C_&usg=__i0ot0GjcNpuGcwJEjrsoWQCrU_M%3D&sa=X&ei=U9JUVar0FeuIsQSh4YHgBA&ved=0CCgQ7Ak


Mike could you parse through all those images and identify one or more that were from 1907.  The few I looked at were from the teens.  I'm thinking horse drawn wagons were just as likely.

David,

Yes, they'd need a road/roads but wouldn't they have been just dirt paths.  No need to built an improved road.  Any idea on how real roads were built in those time - dozers came later than that didn't they?



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Jim_Kennedy

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Re: Question about the Soil/Turf at NGLA
« Reply #23 on: May 14, 2015, 01:35:48 PM »
Most likely all the material was delivered at one time, or in stages, and dropped in one or more areas to be spread where needed later.
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Terry Lavin

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Re: Question about the Soil/Turf at NGLA
« Reply #24 on: May 14, 2015, 01:36:13 PM »
I get the feeling sometimes that some of you would argue about a stump. In fact, you might argue WITH a stump.
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