[Carl Rogers]

Mr. Mucci et al,
Why was there NO private sector job growth in the US from 2000 to 2008 when the Republicans were charge.  This not an opinion, it is a fact!!

Moderator, this thread is a prime example of what I thought the web site was to avoid in 2015.  Please delete the whole thing ASAP.
Very nauseating.

[Gary Sato]

The point here is a "living wage" not just a minimum wage.

People on this site are from all over the world so the living wage is different in each.  The example of $10 per hour in California is an example of an employer either taking advantage of an employee or just filing a disposable spot for a short time.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Mr. Mucci et al,
Why was there NO private sector job growth in the US from 2000 to 2008 when the Republicans were charge. 
This not an opinion, it is a fact!!

See below.

What's often left out of these statistics is the average pay per worker.

As manufacturing was forced offshore wages declined.

Do you believe things are better today than they were in 2002 ?

http://www.truthfulpolitics.com/http:/truthfulpolitics.com/comments/u-s-job-creation-by-president-political-party/

Moderator, this thread is a prime example of what I thought the web site was to avoid in 2015.  Please delete the whole thing ASAP.
Very nauseating.

Don't disagree

[Jeff Taylor]

"Why was there NO private sector job growth in the US from 2000 to 2008 when the Republicans were charge."

Obviously they chose not to flip the job growth switch that is easily accessible to anyone that wants to flip it. Yes, now it is time to delete this thread.

[Andrew Buck]

Relative to this thread I hope.
My Step dad is a golf course superintendent.  He designed, helped build, and now runs the golf course
maintenance for the same course.
His course is low priced for southern California.
He has always believed in rewarding his employees for hard work, better pay.  I used to do some work with him,
largely supervising when he was to be out of town.
His crew members, make more hourly, on average, than the crew at the mid/high end I work at.  When I last looked a couple years ago,
probably 3-4$ per hour more.

Of course, he has a much smaller crew, and for the most part, can cover jobs in all areas of the operation.  Good, hard working, and talented guys that get paid better.  SOmehow, they produce a product that is well above many, with far less waste.

Pat,

This is actually probably the most relative post to the thread, thank you for sharing.

[Jon Wiggett]

So you guys don't agree with paying a 15 or 16 year old kid, with zero work experience, minimum wage?

I don't think I should be told what to pay anyone.  The problem with minimum wage is that often you are paying someone more than they are worth....

Mike,

if you are a respectable, decent and honest employer then I would agree with you but so many employers, especially the bigger ones are not. On the other hand, if a company is employing someone who is not worth at least the minimum wage then they obviously are not capable of doing the job correctly or safely. I am not sure if that would make such a company either a good employer or business but I very much doubt it.

Jon

[Mike_Young]

So you guys don't agree with paying a 15 or 16 year old kid, with zero work experience, minimum wage?

I don't think I should be told what to pay anyone.  The problem with minimum wage is that often you are paying someone more than they are worth....

Mike,

if you are a respectable, decent and honest employer then I would agree with you but so many employers, especially the bigger ones are not. On the other hand, if a company is employing someone who is not worth at least the minimum wage then they obviously are not capable of doing the job correctly or safely. I am not sure if that would make such a company either a good employer or business but I very much doubt it.

Jon

Jon,
I trust the market and system works....minimum wage is at best a starting point for an employee.  The hourly system is the real problem...and piece work etc was a better system.

[Jeff Taylor]

"if you are a respectable, decent and honest employer then I would agree with you but so many employers, especially the bigger ones are not."

Well there you have it. A significant number of employers are not decent or honest. I guess those qualities are reserved for employees. The advice here is to never become an employer lest your soul be lost.
There is a job to be done. People enter into agreements to get that job done so that folks like us can chase a ball around the open spaces. I would quit the game if I thought that it was based on the workings of indecent dishonest people. Given that big employers are part of all commerce, I guess I should quit everything. Everything would be fine if we just paid the entry level employee a little more. Problem solved.

[BCowan]

Jeff,

   Please keep posting.  It's refreshing to know that there are some people left with principles.  One's that don't wait for lawyers to tell one how to shape their world view. 

[Patrick_Mucci]

Jon Wiggett,

Would you identify/list those employers who are disrespectable, indecent and dishonest ?

Feel free to also list the names of those on the executive management team that run those companies.

Thanks

[John Kavanaugh]

I will never forget when airlines started charging fees for the transportation of golf clubs. So many people on this site, who were flying at their businesses expense, cried foul. We all know that the coincidence of great course to location of sales call was iffy at best. We have all seen raters play courses for free on top of travel paid by their employers. How bout the people on this site stop stealing from their employers so those entry level people can earn a fair wage?

[Jeff Taylor]

"Fair".
The most dangerous word in the English language.

[John Kavanaugh]

The avid golfer paradox:  An avid owner creates employment by spending time on the course while an an avid golfing employee soon seeks unemployment.

[Jon Wiggett]

Mike,

how does piece work function in the golf maintenance world?

Patrick,

any employer who is paying less than the minimum wage. If you are going to say that all employers are paying at least the minimum wage then I will use the same tactic as you and request that you produce the pay roll of every company in detail to prove it and of course the bank statements of all employees to corroborate it

Jeff,

I am not saying that it is rife but neither am I willing to stick my head in the sand as some do. It would be great to live in a world where everyone looked to create a win-win situation for all concerned. However, as we get one scandal after another to do with banking and big business avoiding tax, hundreds of well off people employing illegal immigrants knowingly and paying them a pittance whilst demanding long hours I am afraid I just do not see it.

Jon

[Joe Hancock]

All I know is that there are plenty of decent people in the business who hire young people at minimum wage and also take the task of mentoring and teaching those young people how to work very seriously. It's not just about the paycheck.

Those who want to learn how to work and further themselves will understand this. Those who expect someone to treat them fairly and pay them more while doing the bare minimum will not.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Mike,

how does piece work function in the golf maintenance world?

Patrick,

any employer who is paying less than the minimum wage.


Jon,

You stated that it was mostly "big employers", so which of the "big employers" are violating the law and paying less than minimum wage ?  ? ? [/size]

If you are going to say that all employers are paying at least the minimum wage then I will use the same tactic as you and request that you produce the pay roll of every company in detail to prove it and of course the bank statements of all employees to corroborate it

Don't try to predict what I'm going to say, just base your response on what I've typed.

YOU made the allegation, ergo, the burden of proof to support your allegations lies with YOU, not anyone else.

So please, IDENTIFY/LIST those employers that you know are disrespectible, indecent and dishonest.[/size]

[Pat Burke]

Listed below, PGA job postings for California.  This is the first page, no Cherry picking of jobs.
Mix of pay in the postings.  The Southern CA courses aren't exactly making it easy to live in an expensive
part of the world IMO.  But many are entry level I guess.

May 08, 2015
Jun 15, 2015
Assist Golf Professional/Pro Shop
North Golf Course
California
$9.00 - $10.00 per Hour

May 08, 2015
May 25, 2015
Assistant Golf Professional
Wilcox Oaks Golf Club                     Red Bluff, CA
California
$10.00 - $14.00 per Hour

May 07, 2015
May 31, 2015
Assistant Golf Professional
Visalia Country Club
California                                      Between Fresno and Bakersfield
$13.00 - $15.00 per Hour

May 04, 2015
May 31, 2015
Assistant Golf Professional / Golf Shop Attendant
Whittier Narrows Golf Course
California                                                    LA suburbs
$9.00 - $11.00 per Hour

May 01, 2015
May 15, 2015
Assistant Golf Professional
VALENCIA COUNTRY CLUB                             North of LA...nice suburb
California
$20,000.00 - $29,000.00 per Year

Apr 27, 2015
May 31, 2015
Assistant Golf Professional/Teaching Professional
Sunset Hills Country Club
California                                                       Not toofar from Rustic Canyon in Moorpark, CA
$9.00 - $10.00 per Hour

Apr 23, 2015
May 30, 2015
Assistant Golf Professional
Pebble Beach Company
California                                              Think we can find this one
$10.00 - $15.00 per Hour

Apr 22, 2015
May 15, 2015
Assistant Professional
Swenson Park GC                                            Above Stockton, CA
California
$13.00 - $15.00 per Hour

Apr 17, 2015
May 10, 2015
Golf Shop Assistant
Bella Collina Towne & Golf Club
California                                              San Juan Capistrano/San Clemente area
$10.00 - $11.00 per Hour

Mar 18, 2015
Jun 15, 2015
Assistant Golf Professional
Mile Square Golf Course                              Long Beach
California
$10.00 - $12.00 per Hour

[Jon Wiggett]

Patrick,

any employer who is paying less than the minimum wage.


Jon,

You stated that it was mostly "big employers", so which of the "big employers" are violating the law and paying less than minimum wage ?  ? ? [/size]

No I didn't.

If you are going to say that all employers are paying at least the minimum wage then I will use the same tactic as you and request that you produce the pay roll of every company in detail to prove it and of course the bank statements of all employees to corroborate it

Don't try to predict what I'm going to say, just base your response on what I've typed.

YOU made the allegation, ergo, the burden of proof to support your allegations lies with YOU, not anyone else.

So please, IDENTIFY/LIST those employers that you know are disrespectible, indecent and dishonest.[/size]

There is no burden of proof on me at all if you don't accept it is correct then you prove it to be incorrect.

Jon

[Jon Wiggett]

All I know is that there are plenty of decent people in the business who hire young people at minimum wage and also take the task of mentoring and teaching those young people how to work very seriously. It's not just about the paycheck.

Those who want to learn how to work and further themselves will understand this. Those who expect someone to treat them fairly and pay them more while doing the bare minimum will not.

+1

[jeffwarne]

All I know is that there are plenty of decent people in the business who hire young people at minimum wage and also take the task of mentoring and teaching those young people how to work very seriously. It's not just about the paycheck.

Those who want to learn how to work and further themselves will understand this. Those who expect someone to treat them fairly and pay them more while doing the bare minimum will not.

+2
I had exactly one of those who after working his way up from the bagroom to a very solid,highly compensated  position with me, volunteer to go to work for free for one of my previous mentors when there were no paid positions available(the same as I did, and at my recommendation)-He now is a leader in his field and makes a nearly unheard of amount of money for someone his age in our business, and pays it forward to MANY, many young people.


Minimum wage is not intended to be a living wage, but rather a starting point.
Those expecting to have the minimum wage wage raised so they can get a raise will rarely rise above their current station.
Being comfortable isn't always a good thing.

[Buck Wolter]

I may have missed it but I haven't seen anyone talk about the fact that there is typically a pretty good perk to working at a golf course --I worked on a maintenance crew on a course that had a 6 figure initiation and who's monthly dues were probably more than I made between May and October. I don't remember what I made /hour but I know the golf was worth a lot to me , I probably played more rounds that summer than 95% of the members.

Buck 

[Patrick_Mucci]

Patrick,

any employer who is paying less than the minimum wage.


Jon,

You stated that it was mostly "big employers", so which of the "big employers" are violating the law and paying less than minimum wage ?  ? ? [/size]

No I didn't.

If you are going to say that all employers are paying at least the minimum wage then I will use the same tactic as you and request that you produce the pay roll of every company in detail to prove it and of course the bank statements of all employees to corroborate it

Don't try to predict what I'm going to say, just base your response on what I've typed.

YOU made the allegation, ergo, the burden of proof to support your allegations lies with YOU, not anyone else.

So please, IDENTIFY/LIST those employers that you know are disrespectible, indecent and dishonest.[/size]

There is no burden of proof on me at all if you don't accept it is correct then you prove it to be incorrect.

Jon,

It doesn't work that way.

When YOU make an allegation, the burden of proof is on YOU to substantiate your allegation.

You stated that there were  "big employers" were "NOT respectable, decent and honest".

Again, could you please identify/list them, OR, admit that you made a political/economic claim that has no basis in fact.

Jon

[Sean_A]

Minimum wage is not intended to be a living wage, but rather a starting point.

I am finding this thread a bit heartless.  There or thereabouts that starting point is all a significant percentage of the adult population can expect to earn..simply because there are not enough good paying jobs to go around.  Its a game of musical chairs and its a bit disengenuous to imply there are enough good paying jobs to employ everybody when this is far from the case.  Unfortunately, the prevailing attitude seems to be thats life.  Society has a choice, pay in benefits not to work or work to create an economy which can sufficiently employ its population...preferably making goods and providing services which the population will consume.  Unfortunately, I don't think the US (and many most western countries) will ever be in the position to properly employ its people...partly because governments are unwilling to properly step in to do the jobs capitalism cannot; for instance long-term economic/educational and social planning.  While capitalism is grand for many and some watered down form of such is the only realistic option for an economy, the government is not only in place to foster capitalism, but ALSO to ease the brunt of capitalism on the under and unemployed.  Capitalism is a system rigged to screw a certain percentage of people no matter how well it works and the quicker people grasp this the sooner people can get over the idea of detesting "hand-outs".  That is a burden society must bear or suffer the increased costs of malfunctioning society.  This burden may seem extreme to some, but the alternative is much worse.   

Ciao

[BCowan]

Unfortunately, I don't think the US (and many most western countries) will ever be in the position to properly employ its people...partly because governments are unwilling to properly step in to do the jobs capitalism cannot; for instance long-term economic/educational and social planning.  While capitalism is grand for many and some watered down form of such is the only realistic option for an economy, the government is not only in place to foster capitalism, but ALSO to ease the brunt of capitalism on the under and unemployed.  Capitalism is a system rigged to screw a certain percentage of people no matter how well it works and the quicker people grasp this the sooner people can get over the idea of detesting "hand-outs".  That is a burden society must bear or suffer the increased costs of malfunctioning society.  This burden may seem extreme to some, but the alternative is much worse.

   First off you have no idea what you are talking about.  We don't have pure capitalism, we have Italian Fascism in the US.  Gov't/private sector limited markets.  Prior to the income tax, fiat money, and the Fed. Reserve an immigrant shop sweeper could save half of his yearly earnings.  That was when the US had the closest form to Capitalism.  It was the highest standard of living for everyone.  So you sounding off how we have pure capitalism is hog wash.  When Gov't steps in prices and standard of living go down.  You might want to study Hong Kong, and how they went from a 3rd world country to one of the highest standards of living.  It's called capitalism.  people were free to start business the day they applied for them.  The US was founded on charity, and we have moved away from that over the last 60 years.  Guess what, the middle class has shrunk.  When Gov't gives handouts they destroy a country.  

[BCowan]

All I know is that there are plenty of decent people in the business who hire young people at minimum wage and also take the task of mentoring and teaching those young people how to work very seriously. It's not just about the paycheck.

Those who want to learn how to work and further themselves will understand this. Those who expect someone to treat them fairly and pay them more while doing the bare minimum will not.

+3

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