[Gary Sato]

I suspect it's a dirty little secret in the golf industry that several areas of work in the golf industry pay close to minimum wage.  This is especially true for the maintenance workers at many clubs.

Walmart and even McDonalds have raised their rates but I haven't heard anything from the golf industry. If the golf industry raised it's minimum to $15 they would attract better qualified candidates and hopefully do a better job in maintaining the golf course.

Thoughts?

[Pat Burke]

The PGA is part of the problem.  Through the GPTP, as well as 2 year (and 4 year) management programs,
they help perpetuate the myth of the glamorous PGA professional job.

Get rid of an assistant at a low paying job, and there are numerous candidates for the grinder to
move in.
Fire your head pro and you will have hundreds of candidates for any good job.

As far as golf course maintenance, for years it was the underground, undocumented worker that would take these
jobs at about any wage, which then set the stage for low pay.

One of our assistants at our club (a Club Corp course) just got a job at an equity club an hour away.  His hourly went
up 60%, and he will keep 100% of his lessons rather than 70%
There are good jobs out there, just far more embarrassingly low pay ones.

[Patrick_Mucci]

I suspect it's a dirty little secret in the golf industry that several areas of work in the golf industry pay close to minimum wage.  This is especially true for the maintenance workers at many clubs.

Can you provide specific data that supports your suspicions and claims ?


Walmart and even McDonalds have raised their rates but I haven't heard anything from the golf industry.

From whom would you expect to hear from ?
Maintenance workers are hired by small employers that don't have hundreds of thousands of workers like Walmart and Macdonalds.
Many, if not most clubs provide health insurance and 401K's, plus meals.
Most clubs probably have 15 to 22 workers and many might be seasonal

If clubs are experiencing financial difficulty due to fewer members, why would you expect them to increase expenses ?
That would be one of the most moronic financial moves any entity could make.
Take in lower revenues and increase expenses.
That's a formula for disaster.
Unlike the Federal government clubs can't just print money.

I'd surmise that you're not a member of a private club.


If the golf industry raised it's minimum to $15 they would attract better qualified candidates and hopefully do a better job in maintaining the golf course.

Thoughts?

[DFarron]

The PGA is part of the problem.  Through the GPTP, as well as 2 year (and 4 year) management programs,
they help perpetuate the myth of the glamorous PGA professional job.

Get rid of an assistant at a low paying job, and there are numerous candidates for the grinder to
move in.
Fire your head pro and you will have hundreds of candidates for any good job.

As far as golf course maintenance, for years it was the underground, undocumented worker that would take these
jobs at about any wage, which then set the stage for low pay.

One of our assistants at our club (a Club Corp course) just got a job at an equity club an hour away.  His hourly went
up 60%, and he will keep 100% of his lessons rather than 70%

Well said...that's the golf business in a nutshell....
There are good jobs out there, just far more embarrassingly low pay ones.

[Mike Nuzzo]

Is your concern minimum wages or level of maintenance?

In my experiences poor maintenance is more a function of the overall budget than the rate of the individual.
It is also my opinion that poor leaders have more of a negative impact than poor workers.

Cheers

[Mike_Young]

Gary,
What do you mean by "dirty little secret"?
The object is to make it work which means there are lots of golf jobs worked by highschool kids wanting to have golf and range balls and a minimum wage.  Teachers and coaches that have the summers to work and love golf and will take a lower pay in order to play golf and hit balls etc.  There i nothing dirty about trying to make something work and if the only people that could do the job were $15 per hour then that is what the scale would be....

[Joe Sponcia]

I suspect it's a dirty little secret in the golf industry that several areas of work in the golf industry pay close to minimum wage.  This is especially true for the maintenance workers at many clubs.

Walmart and even McDonalds have raised their rates but I haven't heard anything from the golf industry. If the golf industry raised it's minimum to $15 they would attract better qualified candidates and hopefully do a better job in maintaining the golf course.

Thoughts?

Gary,

With respect, this post has zero to do with architecture.  Zero. 

To answer your thinly veiled architecture/political question:  Doubling minimum wage would result in absolutely atrocious conditions because clubs and public courses would be forced to reduce staff.  You can't mow the rough, fairways, or greens twice as fast.  You can't rake a bunker twice as fast either.  To accommodate your supposition, rates would HAVE to go up.  Golf is already thought to be too expensive by too many.  Would you like to pay 30-40% more for a round or for dues?  I do not for the same conditioning and service I enjoy now. 

If more people like you would simply add $20-30 per round when paying at the pro shop or pay an additional $150-200 per month in dues (stipulating that you want the extra money split among the assistants and maintenance evenly), this 'problem' could be knocked out quite easily without forcing the rest of us to ignore the laws of supply and demand.

This post is the epitome of what Ran asked us not to discuss in December. 

 

[Gary Sato]

Is your concern minimum wages or level of maintenance?

Excellent question.  In the end its the level of maintenance although raising   If you're competing against Walmart or McDonalds for employees, whats the quality of your employee?  In this industry though, can golf courses reduce employment opportunities for low skilled workers.

This debate is no different then any other industry in America.  The pros and cons are all the same.

[Mike_Young]

Gary,
In your work life do you sign the front of checks or the back?
Cheers...

[Carl Rogers]

Gary,
In your work life do you sign the front of checks or the back?
Cheers...

For equal time, does the Golf Now thread come back to this conversation???
As a teenager I worked on a golf course one summer and once was enough.
Ron Whitten's talk about his experience as golf course owner at the last Affordable Golf Conference at Southern Pines was profoundly illuminating .

[Mike_Young]

Gary,
In your work life do you sign the front of checks or the back?
Cheers...

For equal time, does the Golf Now thread come back to this conversation???
As a teenager I worked on a golf course one summer and once was enough.
Ron Whitten's talk about his experience as golf course owner at the last Affordable Golf Conference at Southern Pines was profoundly illuminating .

Carl,
You got to explain your point to me a little better for me to reply....sorry I missed it...
As for conferences and "owners" explaining their experience I did not see RW at the Affordable conferecne but I am usually talking about active owners mow greens, run the cash register and can cook a hamburger.  Nothing aggravates me more than to see one of these Crittendon magazine spouting the Top 50 people in golf etc and it usually consist of some guys at the helm of the big management compnanies.  These guys are the ones that specialize in talking Wall St into large lump sums that can be used to purchase blocks of courses for a few years before they are sold at a loss to another guy doing the same.   I want to go to a conferecne where you have never heard of the guy speaking.  I am sure guys like RW ( and I may be way off here) may be aware of having to split the shortfalls etc but to really understand affordable golf you need the guy you have never heard of from the course you have never heard of and has been in business for 20 or more years. 

[BCowan]

Is your concern minimum wages or level of maintenance?

Excellent question.  In the end its the level of maintenance although raising   If you're competing against Walmart or McDonalds for employees, whats the quality of your employee?  In this industry though, can golf courses reduce employment opportunities for low skilled workers.

This debate is no different then any other industry in America.  The pros and cons are all the same.

''If you're competing against Walmart or McDonalds for employees, whats the quality of your employee?''

This has got to be one of the most elitist and most disgusting sentences ever posted on GCA.  Who the hell are you?  I took some turf classes in my younger days and the professor had his own small business related to the field.  He commented on how much he looked forward to hiring fast food employees for hey they had already been trained in a system and found they had better work ethic because of that past experience.  We once valued work ethic and entry level jobs were looked upon well in this country, now they are deemed beneath many.  You must teach economics at an Ivy league school, I'm not going to even bother explaining how backwards you are there. 

[Mike_Young]

Is your concern minimum wages or level of maintenance?

Excellent question.  In the end its the level of maintenance although raising   If you're competing against Walmart or McDonalds for employees, whats the quality of your employee?  In this industry though, can golf courses reduce employment opportunities for low skilled workers.

This debate is no different then any other industry in America.  The pros and cons are all the same.

''If you're competing against Walmart or McDonalds for employees, whats the quality of your employee?''

This has got to be one of the most elitist and most disgusting sentences ever posted on GCA.  Who the hell are you?  I took some turf classes in my younger days and the professor had his own small business related to the field.  He commented on how much he looked forward to hiring fast food employees for hey they had already been trained in a system and found they had better work ethic because of that past experience.  We once valued work ethic and entry level jobs were looked upon well in this country, now they are deemed beneath many.  You must teach economics at an Ivy league school, I'm not going to even bother explaining how backwards you are there. 

+1

[Ryan McLaughlin]

I suspect it's a dirty little secret in the golf industry that several areas of work in the golf industry pay close to minimum wage.  This is especially true for the maintenance workers at many clubs.

Walmart and even McDonalds have raised their rates but I haven't heard anything from the golf industry. If the golf industry raised it's minimum to $15 they would attract better qualified candidates and hopefully do a better job in maintaining the golf course.

Thoughts?

Gary,

With respect, this post has zero to do with architecture.  Zero. 

To answer your thinly veiled architecture/political question:  Doubling minimum wage would result in absolutely atrocious conditions because clubs and public courses would be forced to reduce staff.  You can't mow the rough, fairways, or greens twice as fast.  You can't rake a bunker twice as fast either.  To accommodate your supposition, rates would HAVE to go up.  Golf is already thought to be too expensive by too many.  Would you like to pay 30-40% more for a round or for dues?  I do not for the same conditioning and service I enjoy now. 

If more people like you would simply add $20-30 per round when paying at the pro shop or pay an additional $150-200 per month in dues (stipulating that you want the extra money split among the assistants and maintenance evenly), this 'problem' could be knocked out quite easily without forcing the rest of us to ignore the laws of supply and demand.

This post is the epitome of what Ran asked us not to discuss in December. 

 

OK..if the course that is built (architecture) is staffed by incompetent or fed up staff... people will stop coming and that architectural gem will become townhomes.   I loved my job as a PGA pro...while I was young and didnt need the money.  The PGA has done a horrible job of truly advocating for the working pro.  Too many of us moved on to careers outside of golf because of the dead end aspect of the job.  I can't speak to the other areas as I was a caddie and cart guy all through high school and I deserved minimum wage.  When I was a pro, after 3 years and much expense to get my PGA membership, $10/hour didn't seem right so I moved on.   The courses built 100 years ago that are so revered here mostly pay well and have seasoned pros for the most part... The rest have really marginal treatment of the staff.  I worked in muni, high private, and resort...it is an issue and the PGA is more concerned about Ryder Cup captains than it membership.   

So what does this have to do with architecture...a course needs a business model to be viable.  Lets say you build a magnificent course in the middle of nowhere FL yet treat the PROFESSIONAL staff like walmart employees.....not good long term. 

[Ian Larson]

I disagree that it's any kind of secret at all, it's seems pretty obvious that it's not a very lucrative field for a majority of the industry. Pay scales seem to be exactly the same as they were 20 years ago and the market is flooded. I feel bad for guys I know who have huge college loans to pay off while they're stuck in Assistant positions. And all I ever see anymore as far as advertised Superintendent positions are 50-60k to manage 18 holes and then some...and the multitude of the stuck Assistants are chomping at the bit for them because of the lack of movement. Maintenance laborers? Superintendents have a challenge finding even somewhat decent guys for the money...at least in America with our unsustainable golf model in design, maintenance and warped perception of what makes a golf course "good" with constant pristine conditioning and the green, weed-less, disease-less, wilt-less aesthetic. The golf industry is lucky to have who it has in it who are passionate and willing to stick with it for the pay. Do we really need golf clubs with 22 plus guys maintaining it? I personally don't think so, but I also don't want or need constant pristine conditions on a course I play or am a member at to have a fun round of golf. Lower standards from pristine and perfect to adequate and fair and have a proper sized staff to achieve that...and pay them enough to at least support their families and only employ the best ones that are motivated and passionate and manage them with inspiration and a future.

[Mike_Young]

Ryan,
Golf course owners don't need PGA pros.  They need guys that can operate a facility and if they happen to be PGA pros then great.  As Hogan once said" there is a huge difference between a professional golfer and a golf professional.  The problem today is that so many entered the business after trying the professional golfer route and finding it did not workout.  I've seen my fair share of young professional golfer types turned golf professional types who can't get out of the rain except to tell the girls at the local bar each nite they are golf pros.   I guarantee you if you are a golf professional that can operate an entire operations and know how to show an owner a profit, you can get a pretty good job.  The same goes for supts.  A supt that always needs more budget and cannot adjust to making a profit also is going away....the fluff is done and both associations have screwed their members....the guys coming up as PGA prez for the next few years are of the same mindset as the last few years and they actually think the PGA is critical to the industry.  They can't understand that it is the individuals....

[jeffwarne]

  I've seen my fair share of young professional golfer types turned golf professional types who can't get out of the rain except to tell the girls at the local bar each nite they are golf pros.   

Actually we tell 'em we're investment bankers....

[Mike_Young]

  I've seen my fair share of young professional golfer types turned golf professional types who can't get out of the rain except to tell the girls at the local bar each nite they are golf pros.   

Actually we tell 'em we're investment bankers....

Down here they don't go for that....it's either golf tour or bass fishing tour guys that get the chix....in Alabama it is the dentists...

[Jim_Kennedy]

Work in outside services - the bag boys make more in tips than the assistant, and almost as much as the Pro, makes in salary at ______ _____ Golf Course in Myrtle Beach.  

[John Kirk]

Let's put some simple numbers to the question.  I'm probably missing something, but here goes:

Give each maintenance employee a $3 per hour raise.  Assume 20 full-time employees.  50 weeks of work at 40 hours per week.

(3 dollars per hour) * (2000 hours per year) * (20 employees) = $120,000 in wages.

Without knowledge of payroll, medicare and social security taxes, I'll guess they equal 10% of wages, which would make total expenditures about $132,000.

Case 1.  At a public course with 30,000 rounds a year, the cost is approximately $4.40 per round.

Case 2.  At a private course with 300 members, the cost is approximately $440 per year, or $37 per month.

Politically, I wish the minimum wage was higher because a) hard working people should be paid a wage sufficient to lead a reasonable life, and b) in my opinion, a higher minimum wage leads to a more efficient use of capital and a more robust economy, because less money will be saved by those who can afford to save it.

Unfortunately, a $5 hike in round fees, or a $40 a month hike in monthly dues, may result in a significant loss in business for many golf courses.  If we raised dues $50 a month at my home club, which is well known and historically successful, we would lose members and probably revenue.

[Joel_Stewart]

Saw this today on Craigslist.  $10 bucks per hour?



GreenKeeper/Landscape Maintenance @ Golf Course (Industry Hills G.C.)
compensation: $10.00/Hour


We are in search of PART TIME landscape/golf course maintenance general laborers. This job will require you to be able to perform all aspects of labor related to maintaining a golf course and its landscapes around the property. This is a labor intensive job. You must be able to push mow, lift a 50 pound bag, and not have restrictions that would prevent you from doing normal manual labor.

Bi lingual is preferred, but not necessary. We are Spanish and English friendly. We are also male/female friendly. This position pays 10.00 hr. Your scheduled work days may be any day of the week starting at 5:00 A.M. and ending at 9:00 A.M. This may INCLUDE weekends. Uniforms and all personal protective equipment are provided. Tardiness and absenteeism are not acceptable. Serious applicants may inquire by email or phone.

This is a great opportunity for a retired person looking for golfing privileges. Please attach information about past work history.

[Ed Brzezowski]

Saw this today on Craigslist.  $10 bucks per hour?



GreenKeeper/Landscape Maintenance @ Golf Course (Industry Hills G.C.)
compensation: $10.00/Hour


We are in search of PART TIME landscape/golf course maintenance general laborers. This job will require you to be able to perform all aspects of labor related to maintaining a golf course and its landscapes around the property. This is a labor intensive job. You must be able to push mow, lift a 50 pound bag, and not have restrictions that would prevent you from doing normal manual labor.

Bi lingual is preferred, but not necessary. We are Spanish and English friendly. We are also male/female friendly. This position pays 10.00 hr. Your scheduled work days may be any day of the week starting at 5:00 A.M. and ending at 9:00 A.M. This may INCLUDE weekends. Uniforms and all personal protective equipment are provided. Tardiness and absenteeism are not acceptable. Serious applicants may inquire by email or phone.

This is a great opportunity for a retired person looking for golfing privileges. Please attach information about past work history.

HOLY CRAP  this just talked me out of even thinking of retirement.

[Adam Warren]

Here is some perspective that you can take either way.  I'm a member at a small club 45 minutes-1 hour outside of a large metro area with a shoestring budget.  We have 3.........THREE full time employees and one part time employee that work on our golf course maintenance staff.  A super, asst. super, mechanic/laborer, and a part time/seasonal laborer.  We have some of the best greens around and a firm but lush golf course.  The rye fairways are wonderful, rough is great (until late July- we have single row irrigation), etc.  With 3-4 guys we miss the little stuff like there may not have been weed-eating around each tree every day, but the stuff that really matters is great.  The 3 guys get a fair salary and the part time gets a dollar or two over minimum wage.  In a lot of ways, less can be more.  Each person has to be held accountable for their portion, when a crew of 20 or so can blame another party.  I love our set up.  These guys work hard for 50 hours a week and it shows.  They are a well oiled machine. 

To back up my claim, you can ask Tim Liddy about his surprise when finding out 3 guys maintained our golf course.  Our crew certainly opened my eyes to the waste that happens at so many courses all over.

[Jeff Taylor]

I wish the minimum wage was higher because a) hard working people should be paid a wage sufficient to lead a reasonable life, and b) a higher minimum wage leads to a more efficient use of capital and a more robust economy, because less money will be saved by those who can afford to save it.

I couldn't let that one pass.
Who defines a reasonable life?
Does the college student living at home demand less of a wage tahan the retired person living on a fixed income even though they would perform the same work?
Who defines efficient?
How do savings make an economy less robust?
Why state your political views and then contradict them with potential real life effects of those views being implemented?

The whole point of this thread is lost on me. Why would the minimum wage need to be changed for golf and not other industries? The Walmart and McDonald's example makes the case that minimum wage laws should disappear. Let these companies pay the wage that they feel the work requires. Heck, different costs of living by geography further make the case that a federal minimum wage is ridiculous.

[John Kirk]

Hi Jeff,

Those are great questions, but I had already decided I have no interest in defending or discussing my remarks.  My intent was to make a couple of general, contradictory statements that I thought summarized the situation.  Sorry.

I don't think Gary Sato's intent is to single out the golf industry, but rather to discuss the issue within the context of the golf business.   

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