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Bruce Katona

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Re: History's Mysteries
« Reply #125 on: April 17, 2015, 11:21:15 AM »
I like Mystery #25 - since we only live a few minutes away I drive past the site all the time - it's Honeywell's Corporate HQ (Allied Signal). I thought it was an old estate, since there are many in the area, that was converted to a corporate campus.  The old estates in the area were located correctly as the NJ Transit Midtown Direct train line touches an edge of the property....a great way to get to your country estate via private rail car from NYC "back in the day".
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Bret Lawrence

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Re: History's Mysteries
« Reply #126 on: April 21, 2015, 08:19:26 AM »
Mystery #25:  Otto Kahn Estate. 

Sven,

Otto Kahn purchased the land in Cold Spring Harbor in 1914.  From 1914-1916 Kahn had a man-made mountain built for his estate.  By 1917, Oheka was the highest point on Long Island.  Construction on the house and gardens began in 1917 and the Oheka estate was completed by 1919.  This is all according to an historical timeline on Oheka.com.  There were no specific dates on the golf course in this time line.  I think the timing of Oheka leaves open the possibility that Whigham was talking about Oheka and not Cedar Court.  It's interesting to note that the timing of Oheka was very similar to that of The Lido Golf Links, which Kahn was an investor in.

On Page 305 in Scotland's Gift Golf, CBM states: "I tried to deter Otto Kahn from building eighteen holes, but he thought he would like to have a fine lawn in front of his beautiful Long Island house.  Of course, that in itself is worth while".

CBM felt he had enough of a connection to Oheka to include it in his book, whether he designed it in 1917 or Seth Raynor designed it in 1922.

The article you posted also  includes a reference to a private course for Payne Whitney.  The Evangelist of Golf lists a course for Harry Payne Whitney in 1922.  What is interesting is that Harry Payne Whitney and Payne Whitney are two completely different people.  Theses two were brothers, but the younger brother Wiliam went by his middle name Payne most of his life.  Payne Whitney owned the Greentree Estate in Manhasset, while Harry Payne Whitney owned an estate in Wheatley Hills which he inherited from his father.  Did CBM/Raynor design a course at the Wheatley Hills estate also?  Or did they just design the three greens on 25 acres in Manhasset?

Bret


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Bret Lawrence

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Re: History's Mysteries
« Reply #127 on: April 21, 2015, 08:32:52 AM »
Sven,

While looking through some old estate photos I came across W.K. Vanderbilt Jr.'s  private estate called "Eagles Nest."  The thread on definitive Seth Raynor courses mentions an article in which Seth Raynor designed a private layout for W.K. Vanderbilt Jr. around 1925. Here is an old aerial from the estate, including what looks like a three green golf course:  Today the estate is home to the Vanderbilt museum and seems to have some scars left over from the old layout.



Bret
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Bret Lawrence

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Re: History's Mysteries
« Reply #128 on: April 21, 2015, 02:27:12 PM »
Disregard my last post on Seth Raynor, I was wrong.  According to the Vanderbilt Museum, the golf course was designed by Devereux Emmet.  The holes were named after Vanderbilt's yachts. Thanks to Anthony Pioppi for passing along this information from the museum.  
« Last Edit: April 21, 2015, 02:33:32 PM by Bret Lawrence »
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Sven Nilsen

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Re: History's Mysteries
« Reply #129 on: April 24, 2015, 11:40:22 PM »
Mystery #29 - Where was Silver Lake?

I've tried to track down the location of this course (article from the Nov. 1915 American Golfer).  Any ideas?

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"As much as we have learned about the history of golf architecture in the last ten plus years, I'm convinced we have only scratched the surface."  A GCA Poster

"There's the golf hole; play it any way you please." Donald Ross

Bryan Izatt

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Re: History's Mysteries
« Reply #130 on: April 25, 2015, 04:11:14 AM »
Sven,

A brief search indicates to me they are really talking about Silver Islet Mine which appears to have been a very small islet in Lake Superior at the tip of what is now Sleeping Giant Provincial Park near Thunder Bay Ontario.  Here's a link to Google maps and the islet location.

https://www.google.ca/maps/place/48%C2%B019'19.0%22N+88%C2%B048'41.0%22W/@48.3125452,-88.8294942,5580m/data=!3m1!1e3!4m2!3m1!1s0x0:0x0

Eagle River Michigan is due south across the other side of Lake Superior.  Silver Islet is definitely Canadian.

The islet itself is/was tiny as you'll see in the aerial.  If you zoom in on the islet there are a couple of photos that show the islet now.  Clearly it is not 25 miles long.  That part of the story seems erroneous. As the article states they built a coffer dam to enlarge the islet enough to accommodate mining operations - there's a picture here.

http://images.ourontario.ca/gateway/56085/data

Or, if you've got a half hour you could watch this documentary on the mine.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c0qGobP1guY

Re the golf course, my guess is that it was on the mainland where there is still a village called Silver Islet.  It appears that this was where the summer resorters would come to.  Here's a link to a picture of a summer picnic at Silver Islet around 1910.

http://images.ourontario.ca/gateway/56089/data

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Sven Nilsen

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Re: History's Mysteries
« Reply #131 on: April 28, 2015, 09:24:07 PM »
Mystery #30 - Southern Wisconsin Resort?

At the bottom of the following Oct. 1921 Golf Illustrated article is a quick report on a proposed project just over the Wisconsin border from Illinois. 

Any thoughts on whether or not this project ever materialized?

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"As much as we have learned about the history of golf architecture in the last ten plus years, I'm convinced we have only scratched the surface."  A GCA Poster

"There's the golf hole; play it any way you please." Donald Ross

Jim_Kennedy

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Re: History's Mysteries
« Reply #132 on: April 29, 2015, 03:05:34 PM »
Might be Nippersink which is just over the Wisc. border in Genoa - James Foulis - 1922 - adjacent to two lakes - 60 or so miles from Evanston.
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"I never beat a well man in my life" - Harry Vardon

Sven Nilsen

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Re: History's Mysteries
« Reply #133 on: April 30, 2015, 11:35:32 AM »
Jim:

I think you're right on Nippersink.  It was known as Nippersink Lodge and Nippersink Manor early on and the timing is right.

Thanks,

Sven
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"As much as we have learned about the history of golf architecture in the last ten plus years, I'm convinced we have only scratched the surface."  A GCA Poster

"There's the golf hole; play it any way you please." Donald Ross

Sven Nilsen

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Re: History's Mysteries
« Reply #134 on: April 30, 2015, 02:07:57 PM »
Mystery #31 - Terminal Island's Golf Course

The following article appeared in the July 24, 1898 edition of the Los Angeles Herald.

Anyone have any more information on this course, or on Mr. Grindley?

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"As much as we have learned about the history of golf architecture in the last ten plus years, I'm convinced we have only scratched the surface."  A GCA Poster

"There's the golf hole; play it any way you please." Donald Ross

Sven Nilsen

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Re: History's Mysteries
« Reply #135 on: May 08, 2015, 06:33:09 PM »
Mystery #32 - Chicago's Masonic Courses

The June 1916 edition of Golf Illustrated reported on plans to build four courses around Chicago for the Masons.

Were any of these courses built?

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"As much as we have learned about the history of golf architecture in the last ten plus years, I'm convinced we have only scratched the surface."  A GCA Poster

"There's the golf hole; play it any way you please." Donald Ross

Sven Nilsen

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Re: History's Mysteries
« Reply #136 on: May 08, 2015, 06:58:14 PM »
Mystery #33 - Massapequa's Missing Courses?

The same June 1916 Golf Illustrated reported on a massive project just starting up on the South Shore of Long Island.

So what happened to Massapequa Golf, Inc. and all of its plans?

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"As much as we have learned about the history of golf architecture in the last ten plus years, I'm convinced we have only scratched the surface."  A GCA Poster

"There's the golf hole; play it any way you please." Donald Ross

DMoriarty

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Re: History's Mysteries
« Reply #137 on: May 08, 2015, 07:42:45 PM »
Some of it doesn't quite line up (city vs. state, location a little off but not much off) but is there any chance this eventually morphed into Bethpage? Probably not, I guess, as the dates aren't close, but it had to be in the same area.
« Last Edit: May 08, 2015, 07:48:06 PM by DMoriarty »
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Golf history can be quite interesting if you just let your favorite legends go and allow the truth to take you where it will.
--Tom MacWood (1958-2012)

Sven Nilsen

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Re: History's Mysteries
« Reply #138 on: May 08, 2015, 07:46:46 PM »
David:

I don't think so, other than the perhaps borrowing the idea (which was already done at Salisbury).

Sven
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"As much as we have learned about the history of golf architecture in the last ten plus years, I'm convinced we have only scratched the surface."  A GCA Poster

"There's the golf hole; play it any way you please." Donald Ross

DMoriarty

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Re: History's Mysteries
« Reply #139 on: May 08, 2015, 07:48:42 PM »
You're right, I think
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Golf history can be quite interesting if you just let your favorite legends go and allow the truth to take you where it will.
--Tom MacWood (1958-2012)

Jim_Kennedy

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Re: History's Mysteries
« Reply #140 on: May 08, 2015, 08:08:27 PM »
Looking through the BDE - nothing past 1916 - MGL.Inc., was a stock company offering shares to build the project, to be known as the "New York Golf Park".


Casualty of WW1, or just overly ambitious?  

There was a Massapequa Golf Course. but it went over to housing by the early fifties.

A blurb about William C. Freeman, Chairman
http://bklyn.newspapers.com/image/?spot=2376728#spot=2376728
« Last Edit: May 08, 2015, 08:30:06 PM by Jim_Kennedy »
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"I never beat a well man in my life" - Harry Vardon

DMoriarty

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Re: History's Mysteries
« Reply #141 on: May 08, 2015, 08:09:19 PM »
I can't post articles right now, but the January 24, 1916 Boston Herald mentions the project with William C. Freeman as the driving force.  Plan was for four semi-public courses on a property straddling the LIRR, with possible development of four more courses on a large adjacent property used as a buffer for a reservoir.   (This might help pinpoint where it was to be.)  Article mentions the desire to hold tournaments like Pinehurst.

There are also a number of other articles in various papers that spring, but then the project seems to disappear before anything was done.  Seems like he was trying to drum up interest.  

From the description one can figure out about where the planned course was supposed to be located, but there is no course there.
« Last Edit: May 08, 2015, 08:12:19 PM by DMoriarty »
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Golf history can be quite interesting if you just let your favorite legends go and allow the truth to take you where it will.
--Tom MacWood (1958-2012)

Sven Nilsen

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Re: History's Mysteries
« Reply #142 on: May 08, 2015, 08:27:46 PM »
Here's a longer piece on the project from the April 1916 edition of Golf Illustrated.



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"As much as we have learned about the history of golf architecture in the last ten plus years, I'm convinced we have only scratched the surface."  A GCA Poster

"There's the golf hole; play it any way you please." Donald Ross

Jim_Kennedy

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Re: History's Mysteries
« Reply #143 on: May 08, 2015, 08:31:03 PM »
Basically the same copy in the BDE that's used in the above.
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"I never beat a well man in my life" - Harry Vardon

DMoriarty

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Re: History's Mysteries
« Reply #144 on: May 08, 2015, 08:32:33 PM »
As for Grindley of LACC, I think he was a professional.  In one article he is referred to as "Coach Grindley" and is playing an exhibition match against another local pro.  Other than than I know nothing about him.   LACC back then was in a different location much closer to downtown.
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Golf history can be quite interesting if you just let your favorite legends go and allow the truth to take you where it will.
--Tom MacWood (1958-2012)

Phil Young

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Re: History's Mysteries
« Reply #145 on: May 08, 2015, 09:20:58 PM »
Sven,

The proposed Massapequa project was far from where Bethpage State Park would be created. There are a number of ways to show this, but the easiest one is to realize that there are three main lines of the LIRR that run from NYC through the Island. The one that Massapequa straddles is the south line  whereas the two stations serving the Bethpage State Park area (Bethpage and Farmingdale) are on the central line.

In addition, more than 95% of the land that would make up Bethpage State Park was not for sale at that time as it was the property of Benjamin Yoakum. It was his heirs who would sell to the state to create Bethpage.

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Sven Nilsen

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Re: History's Mysteries
« Reply #146 on: May 08, 2015, 11:38:14 PM »
Jim Kennedy forwarded the following May 10, 1916 The Pittsburgh Gazette Times article on the Chicago Masons courses:

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"As much as we have learned about the history of golf architecture in the last ten plus years, I'm convinced we have only scratched the surface."  A GCA Poster

"There's the golf hole; play it any way you please." Donald Ross

Sven Nilsen

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Re: History's Mysteries
« Reply #147 on: May 13, 2015, 05:29:54 PM »
Mystery #34 - Pemberbrook

The May 1923 edition of Golf Illustrated reported on Willie Park's latest activities, including work for a Pemberbrook CC in Hartford, CT.

Has anyone ever heard of a course by this name?  Was it possibly a different course, built around 1923-24?

« Last Edit: May 13, 2015, 06:28:06 PM by Sven Nilsen »
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"As much as we have learned about the history of golf architecture in the last ten plus years, I'm convinced we have only scratched the surface."  A GCA Poster

"There's the golf hole; play it any way you please." Donald Ross

JC Jones

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Re: History's Mysteries
« Reply #148 on: May 13, 2015, 05:56:04 PM »
Quote from: Bryan Izatt on April 25, 2015, 04:11:14 AM
Sven,

A brief search indicates to me they are really talking about Silver Islet Mine which appears to have been a very small islet in Lake Superior at the tip of what is now Sleeping Giant Provincial Park near Thunder Bay Ontario.  Here's a link to Google maps and the islet location.

https://www.google.ca/maps/place/48%C2%B019'19.0%22N+88%C2%B048'41.0%22W/@48.3125452,-88.8294942,5580m/data=!3m1!1e3!4m2!3m1!1s0x0:0x0

Eagle River Michigan is due south across the other side of Lake Superior.  Silver Islet is definitely Canadian.

The islet itself is/was tiny as you'll see in the aerial.  If you zoom in on the islet there are a couple of photos that show the islet now.  Clearly it is not 25 miles long.  That part of the story seems erroneous. As the article states they built a coffer dam to enlarge the islet enough to accommodate mining operations - there's a picture here.

http://images.ourontario.ca/gateway/56085/data

Or, if you've got a half hour you could watch this documentary on the mine.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c0qGobP1guY

Re the golf course, my guess is that it was on the mainland where there is still a village called Silver Islet.  It appears that this was where the summer resorters would come to.  Here's a link to a picture of a summer picnic at Silver Islet around 1910.

http://images.ourontario.ca/gateway/56089/data



Bryan,

This is interesting.  So, the article says the course was "on the island" but clearly the pictures show that's not possible.  Take a look at this link:

http://images.ourontario.ca/gateway/56096/data?n=4

The description is as follows:

Quote
Stunning black and white photo of the buildings on Silver Islet and their reflection in the water of Lake Superior. In 1868, silver was first discovered there and by 1871 more than 175 men were employed at the mine, located on a 90-square-foot rock island three-quarters of a mile offshore in Lake Superior.

I wonder if the "Silver Islet" on google maps is the actual rock island (as it appears to be about .75 miles off shore) and the "Burnt Island" is the old "Silver Island"?
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I get it, you are mad at the world because you are an adult caddie and few people take you seriously.

Excellent spellers usually lack any vision or common sense.

I know plenty of courses that are in the red, and they are killing it.

Sven Nilsen

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Re: History's Mysteries
« Reply #149 on: May 13, 2015, 06:07:03 PM »
Following up on the Masonic courses, Acacia CC (Langford & Moreau) was noted as being organized by Masons in a May 1923 Golf Illustrated article, suggesting the plan may have been partially fulfilled.
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"As much as we have learned about the history of golf architecture in the last ten plus years, I'm convinced we have only scratched the surface."  A GCA Poster

"There's the golf hole; play it any way you please." Donald Ross
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