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Sean_A

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Another Colonial's Top 100 GBI
« Reply #25 on: January 27, 2015, 08:19:40 PM »
Rihc

If I only look at CBs par 5s I will see better holes than all of Leven.  The terrain too is miles better at CB, but there are some dubious holes...not suprising given the terrain.  We are well apart on this one so there isn't much point in a discussion.  To me, Leven makes your list because it is heavily Scottish oriented...far too heavily Scottish oriented considering the sheer volume of English courses compared to Scotland.  That said, you live in Scotland so it is to be expected. 

Ciao
New plays planned for 2024: Fraserburgh, Turnberry, Isle of Harris, Benbecula, Askernish, Traigh, St Medan, Hankley Common, Ashridge, Gog Magog Old & Cruden Bay St Olaf

Rich Goodale

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Another Colonial's Top 100 GBI
« Reply #26 on: January 27, 2015, 08:34:53 PM »
Rich --

If only I were in any position to argue with you!

Dan

Of course you can argue with me, compadre!  All of us in these Top XXX thread discussions just are smoking our own exhaust!

Rich
Life is good.

Any afterlife is unlikely and/or dodgy.

Jean-Paul Parodi

Mark Pearce

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Another Colonial's Top 100 GBI
« Reply #27 on: January 29, 2015, 10:23:25 AM »
Sean,

There's no doubt in my mind that the highs at CB are higher than those at Leven (indeed, the best holes at Lundin are, I think, superior to the best at Leven).  It's also true that both CB and Leven have weaker holes.  However, CB has more very ordinary holes than Leven.  You 're right that much of CB is on excellent land (though why some of that best land was used for the St Olaf course whilst the main course has the very dull 9-13 stretch of land and a dull couple of closing holes is a mystery) but the dunes on the holes nearer the sea at Leven are good land and really well used.  For me, CB is more attractive, mainly because of the brilliance of 3-8 but Leven is, quite possibly, the better course.

It's interesting that Rich's list coincides far more with my own opinion on courses like Muirfield and Dornoch, perhaps we share some sort of puritanical desire to be tested which you don't?

Niall C

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Another Colonial's Top 100 GBI
« Reply #28 on: January 29, 2015, 01:44:48 PM »
Mark

Let me advise you on the mystery of the St Olaf course. Some of that land was indeed used for an earlier iteration of the main course as well as an earlier iteration of the ladies or nine hole course laid out by Weir. However over the winter of 1920/1921 Tom Simpson revamped the course to produce a new 18 hole routing for the main course that incorporated what is essentially the St Olaf course. However it would appear this course wasn't to the liking of the members or perhaps was part of some Simpson masterplan to redevelop the course in stages as the following winter the existing 4th was built (MacAndrew, the CB professional was given design credit) and at that point the old starting holes were reincorporated into the routing and what is now the St Olafs holes were taken out of main course and formed the nine hole course.

Off the top of my head todays 11th was built then, again credited to MacAndrew.

That routing is more or less what is there today as far as I can tell.

Niall 

Rich Goodale

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Another Colonial's Top 100 GBI
« Reply #29 on: January 29, 2015, 02:14:21 PM »
Mark

Let me advise you on the mystery of the St Olaf course. Some of that land was indeed used for an earlier iteration of the main course as well as an earlier iteration of the ladies or nine hole course laid out by Weir. However over the winter of 1920/1921 Tom Simpson revamped the course to produce a new 18 hole routing for the main course that incorporated what is essentially the St Olaf course. However it would appear this course wasn't to the liking of the members or perhaps was part of some Simpson masterplan to redevelop the course in stages as the following winter the existing 4th was built (MacAndrew, the CB professional was given design credit) and at that point the old starting holes were reincorporated into the routing and what is now the St Olafs holes were taken out of main course and formed the nine hole course.

Off the top of my head todays 11th was built then, again credited to MacAndrew.

That routing is more or less what is there today as far as I can tell.

Niall 

Very interesting, Niall, I'm 5000 miles away from my copy of the CB history book, but your account doesn't fit with my memory.  Do you have another newer source?

Cheers

Rich
Life is good.

Any afterlife is unlikely and/or dodgy.

Jean-Paul Parodi

Sean_A

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Another Colonial's Top 100 GBI
« Reply #30 on: January 29, 2015, 08:48:34 PM »
Sean,

There's no doubt in my mind that the highs at CB are higher than those at Leven (indeed, the best holes at Lundin are, I think, superior to the best at Leven).  It's also true that both CB and Leven have weaker holes.  However, CB has more very ordinary holes than Leven.  You 're right that much of CB is on excellent land (though why some of that best land was used for the St Olaf course whilst the main course has the very dull 9-13 stretch of land and a dull couple of closing holes is a mystery) but the dunes on the holes nearer the sea at Leven are good land and really well used.  For me, CB is more attractive, mainly because of the brilliance of 3-8 but Leven is, quite possibly, the better course.

It's interesting that Rich's list coincides far more with my own opinion on courses like Muirfield and Dornoch, perhaps we share some sort of puritanical desire to be tested which you don't?

Mark

I disagree completely.  I can barely think of a few holes at Leven which aren't bog standard design.  Sure, the holes in and of themselves are good enough I spose, but the course offers next to nothing in terms of inspirational design.  CB has a small handful of quite unusual holes and others which are very bit as good as at at Leven.  I don't know of the mundane holes you speak of between 9-13 (I think 11-13 are very good and 13 in particular excellent...this stretch of three holes is as good as anything at Leven), though I can think of a few I am not keen on.  In any case, I will take the highs of CB over the so called steady consistency of Leven 7 days a week.  Maybe you should see the course again. I recall after your last visit to North Berwick that you were much more impressed with the lesser holes than previously. 

Ciao
New plays planned for 2024: Fraserburgh, Turnberry, Isle of Harris, Benbecula, Askernish, Traigh, St Medan, Hankley Common, Ashridge, Gog Magog Old & Cruden Bay St Olaf

Marty Bonnar

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Another Colonial's Top 100 GBI
« Reply #31 on: January 30, 2015, 04:12:43 PM »
As the only(?) GCAer who's also a member of a Leven club, I'm only too painfully aware of its shortcomings! However, it's also my belief that the original pre-split layout would today be considered to be top ten Scotland easy. It's that good. Getting to play it once a year is beyond fabulous. What we have nowadays of course are two seriously flawed golf courses instead.
Leven, as a golf course on publicly owned land, suffers from a severe lack of investment and it's testament to the greenkeepers just how good it can be. Of course, that's also due to being built on pure, deep sand. There been some minor reshaping recently to improve visibility and playing qualities, so I've been observing very intently!
I also reckon it wouldn't take much to elevate it from its current Doak 4 to an easy 5, maybe even 6. That might involve a bit too much change for the membership who are lovely old reactionary Fifers in the main!
Leven is what it is. A simple, fun seaside course which caters for its market perfectly. Sure, there's room for improvement, but would it be worth the time/money/pain?
Come play it! Several GCA Folks have tried it and, I think, enjoyed it hugely. I doubt that was solely down to the scintillating company of their host..!
Love,
F.
« Last Edit: January 30, 2015, 04:21:50 PM by Martin Bonnar »
The White River runs dark through the heart of the Town,
Washed the people coal-black from the hole in the ground.

Jon Wiggett

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Another Colonial's Top 100 GBI
« Reply #32 on: January 30, 2015, 05:06:26 PM »
Martin,

its a shame the two clubs do not come to agreement to create a joint 36 hole club with the original course and a second made up of the 'newer' holes. Having said that I suspect this might be one of those quirks that make so many of our clubs so interesting and colourful.

Jon

Marty Bonnar

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Another Colonial's Top 100 GBI
« Reply #33 on: January 30, 2015, 05:12:45 PM »
Martin,

its a shame the two clubs do not come to agreement to create a joint 36 hole club with the original course and a second made up of the 'newer' holes. Having said that I suspect this might be one of those quirks that make so many of our clubs so interesting and colourful.

Jon

Jon,
THREE clubs! Which of course is part of the issue...
Lundin being a bit of a mini St Andrews, also charges about twice what the Leven clubs do. None of which would be insurmountable. I might force Doak into writing a strongly worded letter!!!
Hmmmmmm......

Cheers,
M.
The White River runs dark through the heart of the Town,
Washed the people coal-black from the hole in the ground.

Mark Pearce

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Another Colonial's Top 100 GBI
« Reply #34 on: February 02, 2015, 04:05:57 AM »
Sean,

You're a hard judge if you think the use of the dunes on the first two holes at Leven is "bog standard" or if you think the greens on the older holes are "bog standard".  Perhaps I was a bit hard on CB 13 (on the three occasions I have played it it has been into very strong wind, making it little more than a slog in which the burn needed to be avoided) but I'm struggling still to see much at CB outside of the brilliant 3-8.

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