[Charlie Ray]

so a 'hard' hole is undefinable,  but saying #14 at PV is hard answers the question.  Why is #14 at PV hard?  is it an easy double, but a hard triple? 

[archie_struthers]

 

#18 at Stone Harbor GC


Yikes and its windy

[Patrick_Mucci]

so a 'hard' hole is undefinable,  but saying #14 at PV is hard answers the question.  

Why is #14 at PV hard?  is it an easy double, but a hard triple?

Charlie,

No, it's an easy double and an easier triple or higher.  

[Brian Hilko]

Number 3 at pasa. I love the hole but if I had to play it in a stroke play event no way.

[Tim_Weiman]

so a 'hard' hole is undefinable,  but saying #14 at PV is hard answers the question.  Why is #14 at PV hard?  is it an easy double, but a hard triple? 

Charlie,

I don't think a "too hard" hole is undefinable, but as Pat suggests, you have to ask several questions before reaching a consensus.

For example, I really can't consider #5 at Pinehurst too hard because I found making bogey wasn't that difficult.

[Charlie Ray]

"you have to ask several questions before reaching a consensus.
For example, I really can't consider #5 at Pinehurst too hard because I found making bogey wasn't that difficult."  - Tim

that's not a question, that is a example of you experience.

This seems like a good topic, but providing this or that hole as an example of a 'too hard' hole doesn't begin to quantify what exactly makes a hole 'too hard.'   Without having to engage the hole's relation to par, it would seem to me that a 'too hard' hole requires a specific shot to be played and presents no other options.   

I will just sit back and read a bunch of submits of 'too hard' holes without an explanations.  Guys, what makes a hole too hard?  And if the only answers are tied to its relationship to par, then aren't we missing the point?

[Chris Wirthwein]

#2 at Kingsley. Doesn't matter which tee you play...it's just hard. The times I've played there my hcp has been anywhere from 1 to 3. Have never hit the green, nor parred it. Miss the green in a green side bunker right or left and good luck getting it anywhere on the green. Hard hole.

[John Kirk]

The 10th hole at Old Macdonald is very difficult for a couple of reasons.  There's a big difference between the back tee and regular tee.  It plays between 380 and 465 yards long, downwind in the summer and into the wind in winter.  It has a wide fairway, but there are bunkers left, right and center in the fairway, and for me, carrying the bunkers to have a mid-to-short iron approach is impossible most of the time.  The percentage play is to aim at the right bunker, and hope for a 200-225 yard, blind uphill shot over a ridge to a green perched on a dune, where virtually all balls short of the green fall right into a deep depression 10-12 feet below the green surface.

Then you have a steeply uphill short shot off a tight lie.  If you are tentative at all with a putter, or stub a chip shot, the ball comes back to your feet.  Almost impossible to par, bogey is solid, double bogey is common, but triple bogey is a rarity.

The 14th hole at Bandon Trails has been discussed many times here.  It is 325 yards long and way downhill.  It often plays a bit downwind, so it's tempting to try and drive the green.  But the green is quite small, and once again perched 4-6 feet above the surrounding short grass areas.  Also, there is a deep bunker guarding the green on the right.  Here's a picture, which I pulled from the BreakingEighty.com website:



It's much harder than it looks.  The green is so exacting; you make a little mistake, or get a little greedy, and before you know it, you've made a 7 or 8.  It's easy to pull your drive into the woods left.  Your best hope is to have a full, uphill wedge into the green for your second shot.  It just kills me.

[JESII]

JK - what happenes on that hole if you hit a 225 shot at the left free side bunker?

[John Kirk]

Well, a 200-220 yard shot aimed at the bunker would stay up on the high shelf, and leave a reasonably easy, about level, wedge shot.  It's so far downhill that a 220 yard shot will travel 240-250, if there's no wind.  But if you push it right a bit, it falls way down the hill and leaves a frightening 80-100 yard shot that plays about one club uphill.

I've played the hole maybe 25 times, usually with just one other person, and you almost never see anybody laid up at wedge distance on the high shelf.  It's hard to keep it up there.  Also, pull your tee shot 10 yards on that line and you might lose your ball.  20 yards left and it's gone.

With that said, when I played there with my friend Dustin Schmidt, a former pro, he just kills the hole.  He drove it close and got up and down both times for a 3.

The hole yields a very wide range of scores.  Birdie is possible, but even good players have trouble just finishing the hole sometimes.  A real oddball.

[John Kirk]

Tim,

Good subject.

# 14 at PV from the back tee is really, really, really hard because it's a pass/fail shot.

The other holes mentioned are challenging to difficult, but not "hard" in the sense that # 14 at PV is hard.

The consequences for not executing the tee shot are dire, whereas, on the other holes mentioned, failure to execute is marginally punished.

You may make bogey, or even double, but you won't be making triples, quads and higher, routinely, like you will at # 14.

I agree with you, Patrick, and I generally dislike holes of this type. I've seen photos of the 14th hole at Pine Valley, and it would be hard to dislike something so beautiful.

[Tim_Weiman]

Tim,

Good subject.

# 14 at PV from the back tee is really, really, really hard because it's a pass/fail shot.

The other holes mentioned are challenging to difficult, but not "hard" in the sense that # 14 at PV is hard.

The consequences for not executing the tee shot are dire, whereas, on the other holes mentioned, failure to execute is marginally punished.

You may make bogey, or even double, but you won't be making triples, quads and higher, routinely, like you will at # 14.

I agree with you, Patrick, and I generally dislike holes of this type. I've seen photos of the 14th hole at Pine Valley, and it would be hard to dislike something so beautiful.

John,

Yes, PV #14 is beautiful but it is also very clear you better find the green with your tee shot. Pass/fail as Patrick said. Keep in mind that the shot comes immediately after the approach to #13, which is very different - one has a conservative option.

[Adam Lawrence]

Like Mike N, I struggle with the concept of a hole being too hard, except, as Tim suggests, if it has hazards that makes it near or actually impossible for a proportion of golfers to finish it. It's only the dominance of the concept of par that makes us think in these terms. But in reality, golf is played in a number of ways - against one or more other players, whether at stroke play, matchplay or some other format, on one's own in an attempt to shoot the lowest possible score (i.e., effectively 'playing yourself' over a period of time) or just for the fun of it with no focus on score.

If the game is competitive in any sense of the word, then the hole is the same for everyone who plays it, changes in weather and ground conditions apart. How can something be too difficult if it is the same for everyone? If it's a hard four, most will make five, and my five will not lose me much ground against the field, while your four will gain you ground. And if you are genuinely only playing for shits and giggles then you don't care about score.

So really I think the only holes that can possibly be called too hard are those that have ball eating hazards and effectively guarantee that a large proportion of those who play it will lose numerous balls. Which I think we can also largely dismiss as bad holes!

[Matt MacIver]

Isn't everyone's definition of "hard" different, based on handicaps and strengths/weaknesses in each' game (length, straight, short game, etc.)?

For me if I can't make an 8 or better on a hole most of the time I'd say it's too hard. But I can't think of many where I couldn't do that; I'd be bored out of my mind but I bet I could do it.

Note at my course I make as many 8s on par 3s as the par 5s...water water everywhere.

[Sean_A]

"...I struggle with the concept of a hole being too hard, except, as Tim suggests, if it has hazards that makes it near or actually impossible for a proportion of golfers to finish it."

Si.

More often it is the case where holes are hard, but dull...this is probably the worst sort of hole.

Ciao

[John McCarthy]

10 at Butler.  Water just off the left side of the landing zone.  Bunker on the right.  Ravine all the way across the front. 

I played the course over a hundred times as a kid and never parred the hole.  Butler is filled with tough holes but it is really hard not to lose a ball there.  That is my definition of too hard.

[Carl Rogers]

See the various Ballyhack threads a couple of months back.  Holes 1, 3, 4, 5, 11, 12 & 14 are total brutes.

[Tim_Weiman]

Like Mike N, I struggle with the concept of a hole being too hard, except, as Tim suggests, if it has hazards that makes it near or actually impossible for a proportion of golfers to finish it. It's only the dominance of the concept of par that makes us think in these terms. But in reality, golf is played in a number of ways - against one or more other players, whether at stroke play, matchplay or some other format, on one's own in an attempt to shoot the lowest possible score (i.e., effectively 'playing yourself' over a period of time) or just for the fun of it with no focus on score.

If the game is competitive in any sense of the word, then the hole is the same for everyone who plays it, changes in weather and ground conditions apart. How can something be too difficult if it is the same for everyone? If it's a hard four, most will make five, and my five will not lose me much ground against the field, while your four will gain you ground. And if you are genuinely only playing for shits and giggles then you don't care about score.

So really I think the only holes that can possibly be called too hard are those that have ball eating hazards and effectively guarantee that a large proportion of those who play it will lose numerous balls. Which I think we can also largely dismiss as bad holes!

Adam,

As Sean suggests, I think your definition is a good one. Don't think I ever lost a ball on #9 at Ballybunion, but it was always difficult for me to par.

Difficult to par, but not "too hard".

[Sean_A]

Tim

I think its more of a problem having too many difficult holes on a course rather than holes which are too hard.

Ciao

[Jim Sherma]

Tim,

Good subject.

# 14 at PV from the back tee is really, really, really hard because it's a pass/fail shot.

The other holes mentioned are challenging to difficult, but not "hard" in the sense that # 14 at PV is hard.

The consequences for not executing the tee shot are dire, whereas, on the other holes mentioned, failure to execute is marginally punished.

You may make bogey, or even double, but you won't be making triples, quads and higher, routinely, like you will at # 14.

Pat nailed it here. As I was reading through the thread I was thinking along these lines prior to getting down to this entry. The pass-fail type of hole where it is just hit and hope with no options can make a hole play too hard and generally not be fun over multiple rounds.

[Rich Goodale]

Tim

I've never played or seen Pine Valley, but from what I know, all the 14th requires from the back tees is to be able to carry ~200 yards over water, fairly straight, and then (if you miss the green, which 95+% of all golfers, including Mucci, will do most of the time) hit a decent sand wedge from the fronting and surrounding bunker and then get a 3 or 4 or 5, depending on how well you are wedging and putting on the day.  That sounds like a hard hole, but not in any way "too" hard.

My guess is that even a reasonably competent golfer (single figures) will be happy with a bogey on such a hole (just as a reasonably competent golfer will be happy with a 5 on the 14th at Dornoch).  I know a lot about the latter, having played it hundreds of times, over 37 years, and a 4 is a gift and a 3 a once every decade result on that hole.  A 6 is possible, even for the best of players, but anything above that is just the result of several poor shots and or mental breakdown.

The only example of "too hard" for me would be a hole where at some point it was impossible to make a carry without a bailout option, short or to the right or to the left.  I cant think of any hole on any course I have played that meets that definition.

Rich

[Josh Tarble]

Someone else mentioned it but #10 at Butler National is very,very difficult.  Water on the inside of the dogleg on the drive - carry over water to an elevated, shallow green on the approach.  I know I nearly lost two balls on the hole.

#7 at Butler is really hard as well. Come to think of it, #18 is also extremely difficult.  Those are probably the 3 holes that stand out to me on a really difficult course.

[BCrosby]

If the game is competitive in any sense of the word, then the hole is the same for everyone who plays it, changes in weather and ground conditions apart. How can something be too difficult if it is the same for everyone? If it's a hard four, most will make five, and my five will not lose me much ground against the field, while your four will gain you ground. And if you are genuinely only playing for shits and giggles then you don't care about score.

So really I think the only holes that can possibly be called too hard are those that have ball eating hazards and effectively guarantee that a large proportion of those who play it will lose numerous balls. Which I think we can also largely dismiss as bad holes!

Peter says something similar above. A hole is "hard" compared to what? If you are playing solely against par, then some holes can be too hard, in the sense that the scorecard par is not realistic. You post a big number, frustration and unhappiness ensue, etc. (But I thought par didn't matter!? )

If you are playing against a field or in a match, everyone is dealing with the same problems. In those cases, a hole's difficulty becomes irrelevant. The issue is whether you can deal with its difficulties better than your competitors can.

The problem with holes that are too hard is less about the high scores they often generate. The problem is that they are usually less fun and interesting to play. Which is why, for example, I always found the 14th at PV to be such an anomaly.  

Bob  

[Ian Andrew]

And yet many are considered among the very best in golf.
I think perspective on these holes is very important when you play them.

Half of them offer an alternative way to play for par that many strong players won't take.

Perseverance is part of the game too.

[Jeff_Brauer]

I agree with Mike N, often saying there is nothing wrong with a hard hole once in a while.  Too often, and a course would be no fun to play, but once per course, or per nine, I think most golfers like challenging the difficult hole.  And, they like one or two holes to talk about in the bar afterwards......and they usually talk about their birdies, and when about holes, its either hard, beautiful or unusual they talk about, depending on their golf personality.

To me, conceptually, a shot can be too hard, like, BT 14, if the target zones just can't be hit with a slightly above average shot from a good player, there is no real bail out (or as Ian says, alternate strategy for par) to offer a reasonable chance at bogey, and the penalty is typically repetitive strokes, which is the case from way below the hole at BT 14. (from my one play and others experience)

A hole can be too hard if it contains hard tee shot, hard approach, and hard putting.  It seems as if conceptually, there should be some reward for a tee shot that hits a narrow fw, or the right part of a wide one, if it has a great hazard. Otherwise, where is the strategy?

And, if you have a hole with hard tee shot and approach (say to a small green) then there surely ought to be an easier putt as some kind of reward, rather than just another beat down.

A lot of things affect "too hard" but a lot of it is target size, relative to length, wind, etc.  As to one hole that I recall thinking was way too tough, PV No. 5 came quickly too mind - FW wood or ling iron to a perched green with fall away to slice side and bunker right where you might land short to get on green?  I know I didn't have a shot to play it.....

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