[Anthony Gholz]

hopefully the correct thread. 

Regarding the impossible 14th at PV.  It wasn't designed to play at 200 plus yards.  The card from the late 20s lists it at 164.  The 10th btw is at 134.

Even if the big boys hit the same number club, the height, time in the air, etc. does that make a difference?  Today I would play a downhill 164 with a 6 iron for comparison.  At plus 200 yards I've got a hybrid or more depending on wind. (11.2 index)

[Michael Wharton-Palmer]

#11 at Austin Country club would be very high on my list Peye Dye to the extreme,terrifying hole with a card in your back pocket from the back tee, and certainly will not argue with 14 at PV from the silly tee and Merions 18 th with a hard green from any tee!!!

[jeffwarne]

I know that the objective is to look at individual holes, but I do really feel like context matters here. Take the par-3 3rd at Myopia. Brutally long in the neighborhood of 260. Small green, especially relative to its length. Long is dead. Right is likely dead. Left is bunkered. And short is in the deep crossbunker, making the carry over 200 yards. Tough, tough hole. Birdie is virtually impossible without chipping in or making a long putt. Par is difficult. Bogey isn't guaranteed. And others are very much in play.

Too hard? Arguably, but it didn't feel that way after playing the short par 4 1st and the short par 5 second. Rather, it felt fair. But put that same hole at the end of a stretch of 470 yard par 4s and 600 yard par 5s and maybe it feels a little different.

Great point

+1
and a good reason why NO hole on a balanced course can be considered too hard, as long as there are others that are considered by some to "too easy"
Evaluating and adjusting holes separately to be fair, or the "right" amount of hard ,is a surefire sprint in the race to homogonization and mediocrity.
1/2 par holes are almost always going to fall into the too hard, or too easy category, especially those without a lot of risk in going for the lower number/reward-still a great category of hole IMHO.
One man's risk reward is another man's penal (that sounds a bit dirty)

[John Percival]

As bad as water and OB are, this is even worse...
...#2 at the Outlaw course at Desert Mountain.
A short 5 par with a longish hourglass green that falls away with tight turf some 10-15 feet ON BOTH SIDES.

When I played there about 10 years ago, our caddie said that members would simply hit balls back and forth down those slopes with no hope of stopping shots anywhere but on the green. And since the turf was so tight, it would be difficult for many to elevate a shot and have it stop softly and quickly enough to stay on the putting surface. And since the slopes are so severe, putting up them was almost impossible.

Would like to think that the club has either grown grass higher or modified the slopes. Was told that the club contacted Nicklaus
(the designer), but he gave them the forearm shiver.

[Tim_Weiman]

Well my good man I have only played PV five times, three pars and two bogeys on that hole.
I have birdied every hole at Merion except for five.

Must be in my head, maybe it's later in the round  and I am thinking more clearly by then .

Ed,

I see Anthony Gholz make the same point I would make about #14 at  PV. It wasn't designed to play at 215. At some point back tees can be kind of crazy and I struggle to determine the hole itself is "too hard" rather than just that particular tee.

Pete Dye built some crazy back tees on the Ocean Course it Kiawah. Same thing Whistling Straits. He just didn't want technology to evolve and make thing too easy for the expert player. But, to me that was a response to mismanagement of technology rather than Dye building hole that were "too hard".

As for #5 at Merion, I can't imagine there are many birdies there at all, but like Pat suggests, I think even the handicap guy can, smartly, play for bogey without too much difficulty.

[Bill_McBride]

As bad as water and OB are, this is even worse...
...#2 at the Outlaw course at Desert Mountain.
A short 5 par with a longish hourglass green that falls away with tight turf some 10-15 feet ON BOTH SIDES.

When I played there about 10 years ago, our caddie said that members would simply hit balls back and forth down those slopes with no hope of stopping shots anywhere but on the green. And since the turf was so tight, it would be difficult for many to elevate a shot and have it stop softly and quickly enough to stay on the putting surface. And since the slopes are so severe, putting up them was almost impossible.

Would like to think that the club has either grown grass higher or modified the slopes. Was told that the club contacted Nicklaus
(the designer), but he gave them the forearm shiver.

It wasn't too hard for Jack!

[Patrick_Mucci]

Well my good man I have only played PV five times, three pars and two bogeys on that hole.
I have birdied every hole at Merion except for five.

Must be in my head, maybe it's later in the round  and I am thinking more clearly by then .

Ed,

What yardage did you play # 14 from ?

I happen to believe that there are holes that get in our head, holes that present a uniquely difficult challenge to the golfer.

# 5 at Merion is a difficult hole by any standard.

I believe that the arrangement of architectural features, in the context of the individual golfer's game/mind, can conspire to make the hole unusually difficult for them.

Consider a golfer, whose natural ball flight is a draw, a draw that fights a hook, then trouble on the left has to prey on the golfer's mind and resultant play.  That would make # 5 more difficult since the creek comes into play for the entire play of the hole.

Some golfers have an exaggerated fear of bunkers, others an exaggerated fear of water.

So imagine the golfer who fights a hook, who has an exaggerated fear of water as he steps up to the tee on # 5.

Now add in the golfer's ego, an ego that says that he's better than he is, an ego that won't allow him to compensate for his inadequacies by playing far right of the trouble that looms left.

This is what architects dream of.
But their dreams must not favor any one particular game over 18 holes.
They must formulate a balanced tactical challenge over 18 holes.

While # 5 may disfavor the golfer who draws/hooks the ball, fears water and has an ego that plays into that, perhaps the 7th, 8th and 9th hole favors that golfer.

It's hard to find a golfer where the arrangement of the features and hazards favors a golfer on # 14 at PV.

On # 14 the architect has created a pass/fail test with enormous penalties meted out to those who fail the test.
The one golfer who will suffer excessively on # 14 is the golfer with the distance ego, the golfer who's typically short, who underclubs routinely.

If I sat on the 5th green at Merion and the 14th green at PV, and tallied the play over par on both holes, without allowing pick-ups, # 14 would play significantly more difficult, ergo harder.

P.S.  The play in the post above does not represent any individual, living or dead 

[JESII]

Pat, any chance the double digit score you posted on 14 has something to do with your feelings that this might be the only hole in the world that is actually "too hard"?

By the way, over my last 6 or 8 rounds at each, my average score on 14 at PV is about 2.9 versus 4.9 on #13 at Merion...

[Patrick_Mucci]

Pat, any chance the double digit score you posted on 14 has something to do with your feelings that this might be the only hole in the world that is actually "too hard"?

By the way, over my last 6 or 8 rounds at each, my average score on 14 at PV is about 2.9 versus 4.9 on #13 at Merion...



That's an aberration.
# 13 at Merion is exponentially easier

What distance did you play # 14 at PV from ?

Did you use the drop area on any of your plays ?

Using the drop area is an admission that the hole is too hard for the golfer from the tee he's playing from.

[JESII]

Using the drop area is an admission that the hole is too hard for the golfer from the tee he's playing from.[/color]

Okay Roy!?!

[archie_struthers]

 


Was playing 18 at Stone Harbor in a skins game back after it was first renovated. 16 guys all decent players.
Cold windy day  ! When they started divvying up the skins they said I got one on 18.  Raised my hand and said no, I made bogey there .

Looked around the grill room and  nobody offered . Bogey got the cash. 

[Patrick_Mucci]

Using the drop area is an admission that the hole is too hard for the golfer from the tee he's playing from.[/color]

Okay Roy!?!

That wasn't Roy's critical choice.

His choice was to lay up or go for it.
He chose to go for it...repeatedly

And there was no drop area.

I'll bet you on par at # 13 at Merion versus par on # 14 at PV all day long, with every foursome that plays the hole.
and I'll bet you on the average score on both holes all day long.

Opting for the drop area is a concession that the hole is too hard for the golfer.

[V. Kmetz]

Opting for the drop area is a concession that the hole is too hard for the golfer.

And providing a drop area at all is admission that the club fathers know it too!

cheers

vk

[Patrick_Mucci]

VK,

AGREED

[Garland Bayley]

That hole at Princeville with the lave tube waterfall behind the green...12?

430ish, requiring a layup off the tee, then a 200-220 shot over jungle to basically an island green.

I shudder to think how a 20 plays this hole without putting down cartpaths...

Tsk, tsk, tsk! Stereotypes, stereotypes, stereotypes. There are bazillions of golfers with handicaps over 30 that have no problem with that carry.

I shudder to think how short hitting single digit handicap golfers play that how without putting down cartpaths...

Fine, I should have added "without losing a ball."  Or, "without having better than a 1/4 chance of pulling off the shot."

I didn't know the 20-handicap was a protected class!

Well those short hitting single digit handicaps have zero percent of pulling off the shot, so your continued underestimation of the 20 handicapper continues to make me shudder.

[Rich Goodale]

My average at #5 Merion is 4.0000.  What's so hard about that hole?

[JESII]

Sorry boys...but providing a drop area amongst otherwise unplayable ground is hardly an admission that this is the singularly most "too hard" hole in golf.

In addition, to use it after hitting a ball in the water is not a concession that the hole is too hard...rather, to not use it would emulate Roy 'Tin Cup' McEvoy...

The hole is extremely hard...but not the most difficult on the course for any caliber player, whether you measure average score or frequency of 'others'.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Sorry boys...but providing a drop area amongst otherwise unplayable ground is hardly an admission that this is the singularly most "too hard" hole in golf.

Jim, you've contradicted yourself, but that's not unusual😀

You've admitted that the body of the hole resides on "unplayable ground"

I'd say that qualifies a hole as being too hard.

In addition is not a concession that the hole is too hard...rather, to not use it would emulate Roy 'Tin Cup' McEvoy...

Obviously you don't understand "cause and effect"

And again, youneed to familiarize yourself with the plot in "Tin Cup"
There was NO drop area in "Tin Cup"
Roy's choice was to either lay up or go for it.
There is NOWHERE to lay up on # 14 at PV.
It's one of the ultimate pass/fail holes, like 17 at TPC

The only hole that resembles it, sans water, was the original 17th at Sand Hills.

The hole is extremely hard...but not the most difficult on the course for any caliber player, whether you measure average score or frequency of 'others'.

Yard for yard it's easiest the hardest hole on the course.

Would # 5 replicate it's difficulty from the same yardages ?
Not even close.

[JESII]

Pat,

Pine Valley is 600 acres of unplayable terrain and about 50 of the best golf imaginable...you need to rethink your angle here. Why would anyone consider #5 from the distance of #14? They'd be ass deep in the lake...

[Patrick_Mucci]

Pat,

Pine Valley is 600 acres of unplayable terrain and about 50 of the best golf imaginable...you need to rethink your angle here.

Jim, rather, I think you need to understand the pass/fail nature of the hole and the island nature of the green.

Or, as "Rocky" the supreme yardage and wind consultant, states, when golfer's are on the 14th tee, when he picks up their ball off the tee, holds it high up, looks at it and says, "you better take a deep breath now"

Why would anyone consider #5 from the distance of #14? They'd be ass deep in the lake...

Jim, have someone explain the concept to you as you're obviously sleep deprived and unable to comprehend my analogy.

[JESII]

And you may need to have someone loosen your chinstrap...

I know the hole quite well and agree that it's difficult, extremely difficult even. What you fail to accept is that the consequences for failing the initial test are generally pretty mundane. There are certainly times when a ball gets into a Pine Valley spot but most often the ball is fairly clean in a bunker or dropped about 75 yards from the flattest green on the course.

[Patrick_Mucci]

And you may need to have someone loosen your chinstrap...

I know the hole quite well and agree that it's difficult, extremely difficult even.

What you fail to accept is that the consequences for failing the initial test are generally pretty mundane.

"Mundane" ?  Shirley you jest.

Fail the initial test and you have to play the same shot, with failure on your first shot and the consequences for failing on your next shot, fresh on your mind.   It's one of the most daunting shots in all of golf.   And, it gets more difficult with each required/repeated attempt.


There are certainly times when a ball gets into a Pine Valley spot but most often the ball is fairly clean in a bunker or dropped about 75 yards from the flattest green on the course.

The moment you introduce a drop area, you're conceding that the hole is too hard and can't be replayed from the original tee.

[V. Kmetz]

Fail the initial test and you have to play the same shot, with failure on your first shot and the consequences for failing on your next shot, fresh on your mind.   It's one of the most daunting shots in all of golf.   And, it gets more difficult with each required/repeated attempt.


The moment you introduce a drop area, you're conceding that the hole is too hard and can't be replayed from the original tee.

Absolutely...it's an admission of excessive difficulty when an adjunct rules allowance, outside the normal procedures, must be instituted...just imagine the hole without that allowance of a drop area...and its why, as matter of basic principle, the more that water and islands are introduced to a hole, the more difficult that hole is likely to become.

Another candidate (though on a ridiculous course to begin with)

13th at (the first) Trump National -  Briarcliff...back tee makes an uphill shot of about 208...blind...to an island green...set in a waterfall basin swear to god, you'll get more bogeys if you just flair it out into the 11th fairway and tack on sideways.

cheers

vk

[Ed Brzezowski]

My average at #5 Merion is 4.0000.  What's so hard about that hole?

Good lord I must be a total hack. I hit two of my best shots there last June with the approach landing twenty feet to the right of a middle hole location, and ended up in the left rough by the creek. A four putt/chip ensued.

I see Pats points about 14 at PV but I just believe 5 is more difficult, but I am a moron.

It is quite possible it now resides in my head that I cannot play the hole well .

[JESII]

I've never heard that about formal drop areas...strange POV!

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