[Patrick_Mucci]

Pat,

When did we stray from being an architectural discussion group to being a marketing and entrepreneurial website?

Probably when the discussions centered on the Bandon and Kohler courses.

You haven't yet said whether you think Trump LA is good, bad or indifferent...


I have absolutely NO opinion on the quality of the course as I've never set foot on it.

and you know what you truly think.

I do ?
Then please enlighten me and tell me what it is.

It's time to quit the side show and take a stand.

I'm not about to comment on the merits or the shortcomings of a course I've never played.

The fact is that the course existed prior to Trump's purchase.
Originally a Pete Dye course, I'm now informed, contrary to your claim, that design restrictions were imposed on the site AFTER Pete Dye was commissioned, and that Pete subsequently ceded the design responsibilities to PB.
Trump bought it and subsequently a portion of it slid into the ocean.
Rather than abandon it, he poured millions in to try to salvage the golf course.
Why is that perceived as a bad thing ?

And, why haven't you been actively critical of the OT threads that still pop up ?

The discussion of marketing and entepreurial aspects of this course remains relevant and on topic.

Focus your critiques on OT threads as opposed to topics related and tangential to architectural discussions
 

[Ryan McLaughlin]

David,

How was the course before the cave in ?

It wasn't really open yet.  Word is the SCGA ratings crew had just finished when the slide happened.  I wonder how many actually played as the original layout.

Trump was always very respectful and friendly when he came by and he was nice even to bring his wife by!!

[Jim Nugent]

All to many people want to blame Trump for a bad course when he had nothing to do with the original and inherited what's been deemed a poor course.

That's because Trump himself claims co-design credit.  He calls it a Pete Dye/Donald Trump design.  A few years ago, on his Trump LA website, he used to drop the Dye part.  He strictly called it a Donald Trump design, i.e. he was the sole architect.  Apparently even now the 'Pete' part is not right.  Perry designed the original.  So Perry Dye/Donald Trump is probably more accurate.  

I just picked up this Trump quote, from Southland Golf Magazine, on who designed the course:

“Pete Dye built a good golf course, but what we’ve done is build a great course,” Trump said. “This really has nothing to do with Ocean Trails. It’s completely new. We ripped down that course and built a new one. We used much of the routing they had but it’s wider, nearly 1,000 yards longer and everything is new, from the tees and fairways to the traps and the sand. It’s the first Donald J. Trump signature golf course.”

Garland,

What you don't seem to understand is that only a handful of people/golfers know that the course isn't better than Pebble Beach.

Golf Mag does not rank it among the top 100 US courses.  Neither does Golf Digest.  Neither does GolfWeek.  All of them rank Pebble much, much higher.  

So I think more than a handful of people/players know Pebble is better.  Just about everyone who reads those three magazines, for starters.  

If you are right, though, thousands of times more golfers believe Trump LA is better than Pebble.  How is that good for the game?  

[DMoriarty]

Patrick,

You wrote, "Trump bought it and subsequently a portion of it slid into the ocean."   This isn't quite correct.  As Ryan mentioned, the slide took place before "Ocean Trails" (the original name) was even officially opened, and this was years before Trump was involved. Ryan would know best, but my recollection is that the course operated for years as a 15 hole layout before Trump purchased the property.  When Trump purchased the property the damage had already been done.

David,

You and others also seem to forget that the acquisition of this property gave Trump an L.A. presence, a west coast course that would be accessible to all of the members of his east coast based clubs.

That's a significant selling point

Herein lies the disconnect between my posts and your posts.  I'm not interested in Trump's "LA presence" or how this course fits in his master plans.  I was just commenting on the golf course, and whether or not the marketing and hype accurately portray the quality of the course.  In my opinion they not.  But the views are great and the people are very nice.  

[Tommy Naccarato]

FWIW, I've played the course as a 15 holer (with GCA's David Kelly, and several times after the fix, which BTW, I believe was handled by insurance, not Donald Trump, who bought it while it was being fixed.  Lost was the actually pretty good opening first hole, which was replaced by the monstrosity of a green, waterfall and rock structure that looked like something out of a ride at Disneyland.  Another similar structure had also been built behind the 17th green, as well as the famed "Volcano" back tee for the 18th.  As absurd as it looks, the view from it is pretty spectacular. But then again, you have to really love the Palos Verdes Peninsula as I do, going back to the days of Marineland, when I was a kid!

Pat, Both David and Matt are right on the mark in description of the course. It's dreadful golf architecture. Simply horrible,   However, where your correct is the assumption of Trump. I think both he and his staff have a winner here because--and I say this as someone that thinks the personal emmenities are buzz kill for us archiphiles, in actuality, Mr Trump is no different then a golf P.T. Barnum.

Step inside hello, we've the most amazing show! Come inside! Come inside! (Lyric courtesy of Peter Sinfield )

And the celebrities and other people that can afford golf on a seaside course, do come. They're treated to high end service and privacy by a name they know that he knows how to offer and treat them, and they're willing to pay for it.  We can all sit back and call it the worst, but in actuality, especially here in LA, you build that, they will come, simply because of the service and privacy  and view this daily fee has to offer.  Don't get me wrong, guys like David can afford to play Trump LA, but, choose great golf over service and privacy, for the intimacy of a public Rustic Canyon.  Same thing, just different ends of the spectrum!

One more thing in Trump the man, and I've said this to a certain architect who has done work for him: "There are three people building golf courses right now.  Mike Keiser, Donald Trump and Everyone Else!"  You don't throw the baby out with the bath water on this one folks, you do and you might not find another golf course being built for quite sometime, simply because the loans and trust don't think Golf is a very nice word.

Trump, for better or worse, is a guy that has figured out how to build and manage golf courses successfully, despite the craziness and animosity many have for him.  In the same breath--and I say this from experience--the people that work for him are driven to succeed.  How are we, lovers of this sport going to fault that?!?!  Especially in this place and time?

[Ryan McLaughlin]

The Zuckerman Bros originally developed the course until the slide.  They went BK and the bank, Credit Suisse, came in and took it over.  When I came on they were talking about linking it with a resort at the former Marine Land site which is now Terranea (they were actually filming the first Pirates of The Carribean movie there so it was a parking lot with a big pirate ship set built).  The Lowe Group (Destination Resorts) was in talks to buy it but it fell through and then Trump flew in and apparently got it dirt cheap, literally a 200 foot mound of dirt stacked on 3 holes.  We had no driving range and a nice short game practice hole.  The range is near where the old 12th hole was and where the housing was supposed to be.  Then the final holes 9,12,18 I believe were finished.   It is way overpriced but they do have a loyalty program that is more "reasonable".  The South Bay is so golf starved that it is the only viable option for many die hard golfers.  Los Verdes is just not an option unless 6 hour rounds are your cup of tea and Victoria Links would be better served as the Rams new stadium than a golf course. 

[Patrick_Mucci]

Tommy, Ryan & David,

Did the original site dictate the terraced routing or were their alternatives that were missed

What's the acreage ?

What does a round cost ?

[DMoriarty]

Patrick,  Unlike Tommy I was not familiar with the site before it was a golf course so it is tough for me to speculate what the other options might have been.  Not sure the acreage they had to work with originally either.   To me it seems like a tough site for any course, though, because it is basically a sidehill.  As I said above, great potential for views, not so much for golf.   Tommy disagrees, and because he has seen the raw product I'll defer to him on this. 

As for the green fee, I think it varies significantly with time of day and year, but Ryan is your best source on that.   

[astavrides]

Click to their website and you can see the fees: $215 to $280 this time of year to play before 1230. After 1230, $160.
I played Ocean Trails a few times when it was 15 holes open, unlimited play, summer weekday afternoons for $35 circa 2001.
I remember shooting +8 on the front 8, and followed by -2 on the back 7 one time.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Click to their website and you can see the fees: $215 to $280 this time of year to play before 1230. After 1230, $160.
I played Ocean Trails a few times when it was 15 holes open, unlimited play, summer weekday afternoons for $35 circa 2001.
I remember shooting +8 on the front 8, and followed by -2 on the back 7 one time.

Astravides,

How do those costs compare to the other available courses in the area ?

[astavrides]

I don't really know, Pat. I moved away in 2003.

[Carl Nichols]

Pat--
There aren't a lot of other 18-hole courses very close to Trump LA.  One is Los Verdes; peak rate there is $36.50 (not including cart). 

[Alex Miller]

Click to their website and you can see the fees: $215 to $280 this time of year to play before 1230. After 1230, $160.
I played Ocean Trails a few times when it was 15 holes open, unlimited play, summer weekday afternoons for $35 circa 2001.
I remember shooting +8 on the front 8, and followed by -2 on the back 7 one time.

Astravides,

How do those costs compare to the other available courses in the area ?

I can answer that. Substantially more expensive than the lone 18 hole public course, Los Verdes ($49 peak rate I think) but as has been mentioned it is plagued by 6 hour rounds.

Terrenea is a 9 hole par 3 course, but similarly high end at $40. The architecture is much much better and I would rather play there 4 times than Trump once...

The next closest public course is 20 miles away, crowded, and not spectacular (whether it be in Long Beach or Torrance).

There are a couple private courses in Palos Verdes.

Palos Verdes Country Club is approaching hidden gem status with some very good recent work to restore bunkers, expand greens, and remove trees. It is available for outside play at $220 I think. It has some amazing views of the ocean and the LA basin, however not on every single hole like Trump has. It is a much better golf course though.

Rolling Hills CC is (seemingly constantly) about to engage in a land swap and completely rebuild their club and course. The new design is supposedly a DMK effort and there is potential for a very good course to emerge. Currently, Rolling Hills is a tight, slightly overgrown Ted Robinson design.

[DMoriarty]

Thanks Alex.  I'll add that at daily fee courses in the greater Los Angeles area, Trump LA has to be at or near the highest green fee.  For example Pelican Hill in Orange County considers itself high end/luxury and it is at $290.

[Tommy Naccarato]

Pat, Here is an image that I took from the course one glorious day in 2012 where I more or less had the entire course to myself and the hospitality of Trump LA and staff was off the charts fantastic. I think you of all people know how much I detest "extra" service! However, on that particular day it was important to me and I'm still grateful for it--grateful for any day to be swinging a golf club on any course. Some of you are aware of my personal struggles. The staff there that day literally welcomed me with open arms!  I will never forget that. EVER!



So maybe I might not be the best critique for really taking the course to task to the point that I'd like to demo it and rebuild again--and trust me, that's what I would love to do. But that would mean putting some pretty special people out of work for a period of time and I'm not for that at all.  Still, I hope that I can talk about what I would have done, visualize what the property could be--the type of course that would be fun, not necessarily long, but demand on thinking your way around the golf course of the great strategic merits that could have been on this property.

I do this with complete respect of what they have there now and how a certain faction of customer thats manages to keep the course busy with play.


So here goes!

Little attention was paid to utilizing the positive, sometimes seemingly over the top factors of this property with the initial routing; QUIRK.  There were several opportunities to create wild downhill holes with a backdrop of nothing but Pacific Ocean. The downhill nature of the holes could have been offset by prevailing winds further making long downhill holes even longer; short down hill holes even further and vice versus going uphill. The site is a very easy one to create something very non-memorable, but also creating something unforgettable. With exception to the closing holes, none of the holes should have ever been aimed back to back in the same direction while at the same time, great care to utilize the several drainage ravines for side and crossing hazards.  There should have been some sort of routing style utilizing triangular routing patterns, because thats the best way to go out and get back while changing directions.  The amount of earth moved--and I say this having sat out there one day seeing massive earth moving scrappers rip apart this beautiful piece of property. I don't have an exact routing in mind at this present time, but I've got a pretty good vision of it because I've used Trump LA as my own personal model for understanding how to route a golf course. This should make me an open target for hunting season, so be it!

The idea would be to create corridors capable of containing/utilizing existing strategic elements that provide quirky, fun, yet challenging Sportsman golf: The guy that wants to be challenged time and time again.

The site in 1994:(There were many routing concepts with this land. You pick one, ask for more from the environmentalists taking it into absurd areas you know they'll never go for and you'll eventually get the routing you really want!)

[Lynn_Shackelford]

Great picture Tommy of the land before it became a golf course.  I think I prefer the land bare and without a course.

Remember this was built by some guys who decided that Perry Dye was right, he could build great courses on a small parcel of land.  It was never going to be world class.  The site yes, but the amount of land dictated a shorter course, something neither Perry Dye nor the developers  would accept.

[Peter Kelly]

The focus on this piece of land has always been on the real estate development value (i.e. McMansions with a view) with the golf only there as a marketing aid to sell the houses and to offer the Coastal Commission something more attractive for the coastline than rows of houses lining the cliffs. I think the Zuckermans probably wanted to squeeze the course in closest to the cliffs because they figured (or even knew) that it was more unstable than further up the property and would be tougher for spec homes to get loans than if the homes were further away from the  edge.

I don't know the acreage of the course, but I suspect the idea was to squeeze it into a small footprint so as to leave more room for the housing lots. They wanted a "name" architect for marketing but I doubt they cared whether it was an architecturally significant course as long as it was pretty to look at. Also the course would provide a more pleasing view from the terraces of mansions that would traverse the hill as it descended from PV drive to the water than if a series of homes hung on the edge of the cliff. Presumably the coastal commission would prefer that as well.

I think Trump feels the same way about the course. He's a smart guy and a pretty good player. He knows damn well the course is nothing close to a world class venue, but he can say whatever he wants and then buyer beware (if the buyer really cares about that sort of thing). It's worked for him before and if it ain't broke.......

I think the Z's rolled the dice on things remaining stable long enough for them to sell enough houses to make a profit. They lost when the landslide occurred. They are lucky that nobody was seriously hurt or killed as might have happened if the 'dozers had been on the edge at the time.

I don't remember the details, but Trump ended up getting a great "bargain" when he bought the course and developable land. As I recall the insurance company was picking up the lions share of the repair of the golf course, which has been estimated at from $60 to $200 million (the latter being the number Trump uses). Trump's cost was something like $25 million and I think Textron lent him most of that money which was used to redo the course and complete the monstrous(ity) clubhouse. He basically got the lots for free when all was said and done....and that's the land he really wanted.

I have no idea if he's made money on the lots (probably is doing well with those now), but the golf course is only there to compliment the lots and  I would bet that the majority of those McMansion owners probably believe his line about "better than Pebble...etc." because of the incredible views.

The course is awful and i agree with Alex that I would rather play the 9 hole Terranea pitch/putt than Trump any day. I think there are often rates there much lower than the $40 Alex mentioned, especially for local PV residents, twilight, etc. I paid $25 for a twilight (4pm) rate a few years ago and had a blast playing the course with friends followed by a cocktail watching the sunset over Catalina. Los Verdes, though in much better shape than it used to be, is a 6 hour round if you tee off later than 7:30 a.m. I'm told (by my son-in-law to be) that they actually sell pre-dawn tee times...which he and buddies have done!

As for other daily fee options, unless you live in PV, it takes 20-30 minutes driving on the peninsula to get to Trump. From my house in Manhattan Beach I can get to Rustic in about 45-50 minutes on a Saturday morning (about 50 miles-all freeway). It takes 35-40 minutes to travel the winding streets of PV to get the 20 miles to Trump. Guess where I'd rather drive for my golf...and MB is considered "close" to PV by L.A. standards.

My friends living in PV area say that the best part of the Trump course is the Sunday buffet...which is supposed to be fantastic. He also does a roaring wedding and catering business...and does it very very well by all accounts.

It is what it is.

[Tommy Naccarato]

Here is an image overlaid inn Gogle Earth of at the Royal Palms:

[Patrick_Mucci]

Tommy,

I'm shocked that as of 1994, that this property wasn't already populated with large homes.

We're there restrictions on the land vis a vis the CCC

[Tommy Naccarato]

Pat, if anything, the city of Pslos Verdes is in much more difficult to work with then the CCC. (From what I've heard). They're very bullish on development, but then oddly, the property they should have protected more was utilized for single-family dwellings.  LARGE UPSCALE single-family dwellings!

[Patrick_Mucci]

Tommy,

Look at that site.

How is it possible that a bad golf course landed on it.

And, look at how they cut into the mountain in the upper left

[Mark Bourgeois]

 There were several opportunities to create wild downhill holes with a backdrop of nothing but Pacific Ocean. The downhill nature of the holes could have been offset by prevailing winds further making long downhill holes even longer; short down hill holes even further and vice versus going uphill.

Like this? One of the funnerest shots in golf.

[Steve_ Shaffer]

PGA Grand Slam event relocating from Bermuda to the "spectacular" Trump National LA

http://www.geoffshackelford.com/homepage/2015/3/10/pgas-grand-slam-moving-to-trump-national-la.html

[Wade Whitehead]

PGA Grand Slam event relocating from Bermuda to the "spectacular" Trump National LA

http://www.geoffshackelford.com/homepage/2015/3/10/pgas-grand-slam-moving-to-trump-national-la.html

How will Mr. Trump have time for this AND his Presidential campaign?!?

WW

[Howard Riefs]

Business is down at Trump National GC LA. Bigly.


https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/is-the-presidency-good-for-trumps-business-not-necessarily-at-this-golf-course/2017/07/17/bda894be-670a-11e7-a1d7-9a32c91c6f40_story.html

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