[Tommy Naccarato]

Pat, Sorry for the delay in getting back, although Jordan summed it up pretty good.  I'll add that Pete pretty much had nothing to do with this course other then the initial routing.  When the city took away the western- most part of the course, it affected greatly holes number 10 and 11, which originall were going to be the 17th and 18th holes. Current 18th was actually going to be the 16th and it was a rather strong and good finish.  When that happened, Pete walked away, leaving the project to his son Perry.  I'm told that if the loss of property hadn't happened, then Pete would have actually been out there to do shaping and building of the golf course himself.  The only times he's been back was to survey 18 after it had collapsed down below and come up with a plan if what to do.

The repetiveness of every hole I've never quite ever seen as bad just as Jordan suggests. Further, there is simple not one memorable hole or feature that was built on the course, given how much land was moved to create these terraced fairways on the main body of golf holes which one would find in a Pete Dye design..  The site itself is set on a West-Northwest to East-Southeast section of the Palos Verdes Peninsula. Every hole going North-Northwest features a green going right to left and every hole going East-Southeast, a green that goes left to right. It's monotonous at best.

To make this property work considering the cost of it required housing and as we all know, once you invite that vampire into the picture, it sucks the life out of great golf.

[Tommy Naccarato]

Tommy,
I agree it it a wonderful place, the Pacific vistas are great and the staff is friendly.

The topography is too severe for any architect to have even considered it for golf.

As for the Doak scale, the course is contrived and unnatural.

John,  There are a lot of great classic golf courses where the topography was severe,  but something magnificent put on it.  One of them for example, The Ojai Valley Inn, who's back nine, now front is very severe. This didn't prevent Captain Thomas from creating a magnificent golf course with Billy Bell constructing.  Back in the day, they called these "Sporty Courses" and they most certainly were!  Unfortunately, Golf has lost its sporting nature.

The reason I bring up William Park "Billy" Bell is because, obviously, he routed, designed and constructed the once magnificent neighbor that existed right next door to Trump's property, The Royal Palms.

As I had said earlier in my initial post, the routing was that of genius because Bell took that severe topography, much the same as Trump's and routed a walkable, sporty course on it and which featured a spectacular close with its 16th, 17th and 18th holes.  The 16th being a roller coaster of a down hill par 5 which was fun and quirky to a fall away green that would have produced a backdrop of nothing but ocean looking downhill.  Something the Trump property could have easily replicated or produced, and just the features of embracing on sites as such when routing for a "natural" sporty golf course.  The next hole, Bell injected a short uphill par 3 to a green guarded by bunkers. Anything right was off of the cliff and into the ocean, and was much the same as the long and demanding two-shot 18th.  You played this hole with your back to the prevailing wind and with a panorama of Catalina on your right side view!

This is why, I look at Trump for what it could have been, what it could possibly be if given to someone wanting to think outside of the "modern" box and bring back the sporting nature of playing. (Golf is a Sport by definition)

With respect to Tom's rating of golf courses, the one thing it can't do is rate what isn't there anymore. But we have seen Tom route courses in propert just as severe, complex and topographic. It's called Stone Eagle.  If given the chance, I'm sure Tom would look at Trump, then compare it to plans of Royal Palms and come up with a routing that gently crawled up the hills on angles, only to fall back down to the lower resources and gently crawl back up again.

[John Crowley]

Tommy,
I agree it it a wonderful place, the Pacific vistas are great and the staff is friendly.

The topography is too severe for any architect to have even considered it for golf.

As for the Doak scale, the course is contrived and unnatural.

John,  There are a lot of great classic golf courses where the topography was severe,  but something magnificent put on it.  One of them for example, The Ojai Valley Inn, who's back nine, now front is very severe. This didn't prevent Captain Thomas from creating a magnificent golf course with Billy Bell constructing.  Back in the day, they called these "Sporty Courses" and they most certainly were!  Unfortunately, Golf has lost its sporting nature.

The reason I bring up William Park "Billy" Bell is because, obviously, he routed, designed and constructed the once magnificent neighbor that existed right next door to Trump's property, The Royal Palms.

As I had said earlier in my initial post, the routing was that of genius because Bell took that severe topography, much the same as Trump's and routed a walkable, sporty course on it and which featured a spectacular close with its 16th, 17th and 18th holes.  The 16th being a roller coaster of a down hill par 5 which was fun and quirky to a fall away green that would have produced a backdrop of nothing but ocean looking downhill.  Something the Trump property could have easily replicated or produced, and just the features of embracing on sites as such when routing for a "natural" sporty golf course.  The next hole, Bell injected a short uphill par 3 to a green guarded by bunkers. Anything right was off of the cliff and into the ocean, and was much the same as the long and demanding two-shot 18th.  You played this hole with your back to the prevailing wind and with a panorama of Catalina on your right side view!

This is why, I look at Trump for what it could have been, what it could possibly be if given to someone wanting to think outside of the "modern" box and bring back the sporting nature of playing. (Golf is a Sport by definition)

With respect to Tom's rating of golf courses, the one thing it can't do is rate what isn't there anymore. But we have seen Tom route courses in propert just as severe, complex and topographic. It's called Stone Eagle.  If given the chance, I'm sure Tom would look at Trump, then compare it to plans of Royal Palms and come up with a routing that gently crawled up the hills on angles, only to fall back down to the lower resources and gently crawl back up again.

Tommy,
I agree, topographical severity does not necessarily preclude good design. I can think of many fine courses that are on difficult ground but are architectural gems. Two that quickly come to mind are Pasatiempo and Shoreacres. The hand (and vision) of the architect make the difference.

Stone Eagle Is a great piece of work. I live 3 minutes away.

Yes, a talented architect could have made something much better of that land on the Pacific.

[John Crowley]

Revision, OK Shoreacres land may not qualify as severe, but it certainly was challenging for Raynor.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Tommy,

In all fairness, Bell didn't have the limitations that Dye had.

It appears that Bell's design was unrestricted whereas Dye's was handicapped from the get go.

Absent restrictions could Dye have created a good course on the site ?

[Joe Hancock]

Pat,

Limitations and restrictions are neither fair nor unfair. They exist in some places and the architect would know about them before designing the course. So, I don't think anyone can answer your question as to whether PD could have created a good course on that site. All we can do is discuss whether it is, or it isn't, a good course.

Joe

[Patrick_Mucci]

Joe,

In many cases the restrictions are imposed after the project is undertaken, hence the architect wouldn't be aware of them when he took the commission.

[Carl Nichols]

How much of what's there now is really Pete Dye's work?

[Tommy Naccarato]

Tommy,

In all fairness, Bell didn't have the limitations that Dye had.

It appears that Bell's design was unrestricted whereas Dye's was handicapped from the get go.

Absent restrictions could Dye have created a good course on the site ?

Pat,
Pete Dye had a course in his mind that was going to go on to that site. He had two areas that had to create public access. One to the coastline which was protected, and the other to a small park-like area below the clubhouse and right on the coastal side.  It was during the initial construction clearing that he was told he could not go further West-Northwest where he had more holes laid out. This is the hole you will see many on TV shows and commercials, a short dogleg left to a green surrounded by a mass of bunkers.  The original planned hole was much longer and you can see the great land that was there for it.  Even then, it's the main body of holes which fail to be memorable, and in my opinion, it's because of the routing of them; their back and forth nature.  This same routing also produced the abomination of a golf hole, the par 5, 14th.  For those of you that have played Trump LA, please explain to Pat how bad the hole is, and which there is simply nothing they can do about it.

When Pete was told he could not use that Kane, it was then he pushed it off to Perry Dye and Dye Designs.

[Matt Kardash]

I find it funny that people keep calling this a Dye design on this thread, even after Tommy and I have clearly stated that Pete Dye did not design this course. The course was designed by Perry Dye and then completely reworked by Trump's team when they purchased it. The Medalist of 2015 is closer to a Pete Dye then Trump LA, and we all know how Greg Norman removed all the Dye from The Medalist. I hope that offers some perspective.

[Alex Miller]

"completely reworked by Trump's team" is an overstatement though

Some corridors were widened and native pushed back, waterfalls were added and a few holes completed (though similar to the original design I believe). The course is mostly the same as it was before Trump came in, although that's not what he would have you believe.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Tommy & Alex,

Thanks for the clarification.

All to many people want to blame Trump for a bad course when he had nothing to do with the original and inherited what's been deemed a poor course.

Out of curiosity, could this site have produced an outstanding 9 or 12 hole course ?

[Garland Bayley]

...
All to many people want to blame Trump for a bad course when he had nothing to do with the original and inherited what's been deemed a poor course.
...

I think people want to blame Trump for statements like "the best course in California", "better than Pebble Beach". He has a bad course, but seems to have no ability to recognize that.

[Patrick_Mucci]

...
All to many people want to blame Trump for a bad course when he had nothing to do with the original and inherited what's been deemed a poor course.
...

I think people want to blame Trump for statements like "the best course in California", "better than Pebble Beach". He has a bad course, but seems to have no ability to recognize that.

Garland,

What you don't seem to understand is that only a handful of people/golfers know that the course isn't better than Pebble Beach.

There are thousands, if not hundreds of thousands who accept Trump's accolades as credible and therefore are interested in playing the course.

So, Donald knows what he's doing, even though you don't think he does.

[Garland Bayley]

...
All to many people want to blame Trump for a bad course when he had nothing to do with the original and inherited what's been deemed a poor course.
...

I think people want to blame Trump for statements like "the best course in California", "better than Pebble Beach". He has a bad course, but seems to have no ability to recognize that.

Garland,

What you don't seem to understand is that only a handful of people/golfers know that the course isn't better than Pebble Beach.

There are thousands, if not hundreds of thousands who accept Trump's accolades as credible and therefore are interested in playing the course.

So, Donald knows what he's doing, even though you don't think he does.

Well, I guess most know what the major religions of the world say will happen to The Donald when he passes away then.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Garland,

I don't think that Trump stated that if you like your doctor, you can keep your doctor.

Or, if you like your insurance policy, you can keep your insurance  policy.

Trump is merely promoting his club.

One thing I will say about him, he runs a very good operation and he's been very good for golf over the last few years, rescuing and enhancing clubs that would have gone under.

[Norbert P]

  . . .  by 1934, was vacated by the bank who owned the notes on her.  This didnt stop the Golf-starved former members from wanting to play the course, as they would continue to take one day a week on Friday to come out and mow it with the club's equipment which had been left to rust away and die.  They would then spend the weekend playing golf there up until the new owners of the property eventually forbade them from doing so several years later. 

  The original West Coast Sheep Ranch? 


(Thanks Tommy - great story.)

(Actually, Gearhsrt Links may be the original WCSR)



Would somebody please Photoshop Donald's hair in flames?  Please.

[DMoriarty]

I am not as familiar with the pre-course site as Tommy, and honestly don't know if anything better could have been done there, but what they did there isn't very good golf.  As many have said, the golf holes are tiered into rows the side of hil,l one above the other.  For the most part the golf holes feel artificial, repetitious and not at all memorable.  But the views are nice.  It is almost as if the goal behind the course was to maximize the views from as many holes as possible, and the actual golf be damned.   

If there is something to be learned it may be that it takes more than great views to create a great golf course.

As for Trump, I'll stay out the good for golf or not good for golf battle, except to say that whatever he is selling at this particular course, it is not a high quality golf course, and it is somewhat disheartening when he and others try to present it as if it is.

[Patrick_Mucci]

David Moriarty, et.al.,

How many of you are aware of people who sell their product by telling the public and potential buyers how mediocre to inferior it is ?

Are you all such morons that you would tell prospective members how terrible the course is ?

Do you know of any course that advises prospective members that the course/product is vastly inferior and that they shouldn't join ?

What's the total acreage of the property ?

What's the useable acreage ?

What was the property before it was a golf course ?

[DMoriarty]

Patrick, You seem to think that since he is trying to make money we ought not have an opinion on the content of his message, or care whether it is accurate or not.  I acknowledge he is just trying to make money and will say what it takes to do so, but nonetheless I'd prefer it if he put his money and his hype machine behind a better product.   I am not holding my breath, though.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Patrick, You seem to think that since he is trying to make money we ought not have an opinion on the content of his message, or care whether it is accurate or not. 

David,

Not at all, I'm just trying to nudge you off of your one dimensional, myopic view of the situation at Trump L. a.

I acknowledge he is just trying to make money and will say what it takes to do so, but nonetheless I'd prefer it if he put his money and his hype machine behind a better product.   I am not holding my breath, though.

David, he's just doing what anyone trying to sell a product does.
How much money did he put into fixing the 18th hole ?
Millions ?  ?  ?

Trump has a clear demonstrated record of investing money into his golf projects.

Since you're a local guy, tell us, what would have happened to the course/property if Trump hadn't bought it ?

[DMoriarty]

I'm unlikely to move off of my "one dimensional, myopic" view that Trump National LA is not a very good golf course. This isn't directed at Trump.  I thought the same before Trump ever got involved.

As for your question . . . my guess is that, had Trump not bought it, the land would have gone back to not being a golf course. That would have been fine with me.

You and I probably differ on whether pumping tens (hundreds?) of millions of dollars into a crappy golf course is laudable, and doubt this discussion it will change that..  Besides, it is his money, not mine.

[Patrick_Mucci]

David,

How was the course before the cave in ?

[Patrick_Mucci]

David,

You and others also seem to forget that the acquisition of this property gave Trump an L.A. presence, a west coast course that would be accessible to all of the members of his east coast based clubs.

That's a significant selling point

[Joe Hancock]

Pat,

When did we stray from being an architectural discussion group to being a marketing and entrepreneurial website?

You haven't yet said whether you think Trump LA is good, bad or indifferent...and you know what you truly think. It's time to quit the side show and take a stand.

Joe

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