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Steve_ Shaffer

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RANCHO PALOS VERDES, Calif. (AP) - Donald Trump said Thursday that he is abandoning plans to build luxury homes on the driving range of the 18-hole seaside golf course he owns in Los Angeles County.
Read more at http://www.philly.com/philly/business/20150115_ap_3fe147295b154e9ab836f2ad6d04ea82.html#pXHygg22WgOcpOb0.99



« Last Edit: March 10, 2015, 06:04:19 PM by Steve_ Shaffer »
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Martin Toal

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Re: Trump National GC Los Angeles news...
« Reply #1 on: January 18, 2015, 04:10:45 AM »
That's too bad. He should build luxury homes, or any homes really, on the range and all 18 holes.

Patrick_Mucci

Re: Trump National GC Los Angeles news...
« Reply #2 on: January 18, 2015, 06:00:55 PM »
Martin,

Why would you say that about a Pete Dye golf course ?

Alex Miller

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Re: Trump National GC Los Angeles news...
« Reply #3 on: January 19, 2015, 12:40:44 AM »
Martin,

Why would you say that about a Pete Dye golf course ?

Hey Pat,

Have you played there?  ;)

Matt Kardash

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Re: Trump National GC Los Angeles news...
« Reply #4 on: January 19, 2015, 08:53:47 AM »
I wouldn,t call this a Pete Dye golf course. To begin with I believe it was mostly designed by Perry, and secondly, it changed significantly after Trump redesigned it. To call this a Dye course is a real stretch.
the interviewer asked beck how he felt "being the bob dylan of the 90's" and beck quitely responded "i actually feel more like the bon jovi of the 60's"

Martin Toal

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Re: Trump National GC Los Angeles news...
« Reply #5 on: January 19, 2015, 09:13:37 AM »
Martin,

Why would you say that about a Pete Dye golf course ?

I have no issues with Dye, nor care less who designed it. Dye may well have done the best job he could with the material available. I liked his work at Bulle Rock, the only other Dye I have played.

Trump National just isn't very good, a quart in a pint pot, to start, then it has a few bits which are rather tarted up, such as the fountastic first hole.

I am sure you would judge it objectively without having regard to designed it.
« Last Edit: January 19, 2015, 02:59:01 PM by Martin Toal »

RJ_Daley

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Re: Trump National GC Los Angeles news...
« Reply #6 on: January 19, 2015, 12:26:40 PM »
What are the going insurance rates to build on a fault ridden parcel?  Perhaps there are current or recent geology re-evaluations that indicate it is more or less as stable as anywhere else in that area.  But, that wasn't the information about the land that I remember reading back in the day when the 18th slid into the ocean...
No actual golf rounds were ruined or delayed, nor golf rules broken, in the taking of any photographs that may be displayed by the above forum user.

Peter Kelly

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Re: Trump National GC Los Angeles news...
« Reply #7 on: January 19, 2015, 02:41:12 PM »
The original developers, the Zuckerman brothers (and the insurers), must have hired the 3 Stooges for their geology and soils reports on the original course. I was living in the area at the time and everyone knows how unstable that area of the peninsula (known as Portuguese Bend) has been for years. The road that leads to the course has to be repaved a couple of times a year as the land shifts around. I'm not sure it is a earthquake fault as much as it is just an unstable land mass.

After the slide, insurance (Prudentail?) paid for rebuilding the holes at a cost of something like $40 million. (I know Trump says $260+ million but I've never seen a credible source for that number). That said, I think they poured enough concrete pilings in that cliff to build the Empire State Building. I found this old article: http://archive.lib.msu.edu/tic/gcnew/article/2001aug14b.pdf

It includes this excerpt: Some 115 shear pins - pipes three feet thick - descend 20 feet down below the slide layer and rise 20 feet above it to provide additional support.

I don't think anything short of "the Big One" is going to move any of that ground at this point.

Bill Seitz

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Re: Trump National GC Los Angeles news...
« Reply #8 on: January 19, 2015, 03:45:08 PM »
The original developers, the Zuckerman brothers (and the insurers), must have hired the 3 Stooges for their geology and soils reports on the original course. I was living in the area at the time and everyone knows how unstable that area of the peninsula (known as Portuguese Bend) has been for years. The road that leads to the course has to be repaved a couple of times a year as the land shifts around. I'm not sure it is a earthquake fault as much as it is just an unstable land mass.

Peter appears to be correct.  Not so much an earthquake issue as it is an ancient landslide issue.  From the Wikipedia article about the course:

"The golf course is on a peninsula known for its landslides. The height of the peninsula of 370 meters above sea level and the action of the waves are two main contributing factors for the landslides. The stratification of the sedimentary rock below the course is visible in the high cliffs of the area as it gradually slopes seaward. The sloping and stratification create favorable conditions for the generation of landslides. As a result, homes and roads have been lost to the ocean in that area.  In the area occupied by the golf course and its vicinity, there are three ancient landslides which have been named by geologists as A, B and C respectively. The green of the Ocean Trails golf course 18th hole and half of its fairway were on top of ancient landslide C."
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trump_National_Golf_Club_%28Los_Angeles%29


Garland Bayley

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Re: Trump National GC Los Angeles news...
« Reply #9 on: January 19, 2015, 03:53:53 PM »
Martin,

Why would you say that about a Pete Dye golf course ?

Hey Pat,

Have you played there?  ;)


The LPGA Tour has played there, and it was really funny seeing The Donald trying coax compliments about the course out of the ladies. What he got was "The views are fantastic." over and over and over again. Not one of the players said anything about the design or playability of any of the holes.
"I enjoy a course where the challenges are contained WITHIN it, and recovery is part of the game  not a course where the challenge is to stay ON it." Jeff Warne

David Ober

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Re: Trump National GC Los Angeles news...
« Reply #10 on: January 19, 2015, 10:41:53 PM »
Martin,

Why would you say that about a Pete Dye golf course ?

Hey Pat,

Have you played there?  ;)


The LPGA Tour has played there, and it was really funny seeing The Donald trying coax compliments about the course out of the ladies. What he got was "The views are fantastic." over and over and over again. Not one of the players said anything about the design or playability of any of the holes.


It is one of the worst values, dollar for dollar, that I have ever played. Tight, contrived, mushy, poorly conditioned for the money, artificial, and just ... BAD.

And here's the interesting part: I have nothing against Donald Trump, and I really like Pete Dye, so in no way does either of their involvement color my judgement.

Ryan McLaughlin

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Re: Trump National GC Los Angeles news...
« Reply #11 on: January 20, 2015, 09:34:59 PM »
I worked there as a pro when it was 15 holes and Trump had just bought it from Credit Suisse.  Interesting times to say the least.  The location of the course is just on the other side of the Portugese Bend slide so it is, all things being equal, extremely stable compared to the slide zone.  The course is very much a Pete Dye course (cant say much for the Donald's "design add ons).  It is a very good course completely ill suited for the demographic and clientele that seems to play there.   

John Crowley

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Re: Trump National GC Los Angeles news...
« Reply #12 on: January 21, 2015, 01:43:13 AM »
That's too bad. He should build luxury homes, or any homes really, on the range and all 18 holes.

The land it is on is ill-suited for golf. Being Trumpified adds another reason to avoid it.  I walked off after nine holes.

Jim Nugent

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Re: Trump National GC Los Angeles news...
« Reply #13 on: January 21, 2015, 07:03:46 AM »
Ryan, have you played it after Trump made the changes?  If so, how do you think it compares to the course, pre-Trump? 

btw, Trump used to claim on his website that the course is a Donald Trump design.  No mention of Dye back then.  He later changed that, and now calls it a Dye/Trump design. 

Ryan McLaughlin

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Re: Trump National GC Los Angeles news...
« Reply #14 on: January 21, 2015, 10:24:28 AM »
I have played there.  The most obvious changes are the first hole and the completion which was 9,12, and 18 i believe.  I can't say I like the waterfall and infinity pools on 1 but that was a marginal opening hole to begin with.  The bones of the course, as they were designed, blend pretty well into the terraced hillsides and one could argue that the setting is as impressive as any course along the coast.  I would never go out of my way to play there especially paying full boat. 

Tommy Naccarato

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Re: Trump National GC Los Angeles news...
« Reply #15 on: January 21, 2015, 11:23:28 AM »
That's too bad. He should build luxury homes, or any homes really, on the range and all 18 holes.

The land it is on is ill-suited for golf. Being Trumpified adds another reason to avoid it.  I walked off after nine holes.

I completely disagree with this, or at least not entirely agree with the majority of it.

I used to drive by that land,and think to myself that it screamed golf course.  The existing land was much more rolling and had fescue/stypa like grasses blowing on it mixed between the California Coastal scrub and it ALWAYS warranted stopping, getting out of the car and looking, thinking, drewming.  If only I had my iPhone back then to take pictures!

When the golf course was planned, whether it be the powers that be or THE DYE'S (meaning Pete and Perry) the course ran into the most  dreadful curse of the Palos Verdes local authorities who deem what can and cannot be done out there. Given the great land that should have been far more protected and has since become houses, there should have been more welcoming arms into making it a most natural and fun golf course as its next door predecessor, "The Royal Palms."

Situated just due South of Trump National-Los Angeles was a course designed, built and routed by William Park Bell, which basically eliminated the thought of having to walk the terrain because you literally played your way through the steeper parts of it. From accounts, it was fun, quirky and glamorous, as it and the oceanside palazzo below it were going to be the celebration of life in Southern California in the roaring 1920's.  Sadly, the course died rather quickly due to the Great Depression and by 1934, was vacated by the bank who owned the notes on her.  This didnt stop the Golf-starved former members from wanting to play the course, as they would continue to take one day a week on Friday to come out and mow it with the club's equipment which had been left to rust away and die.  They would then spend the weekend playing golf there up until the new owners of the property eventually forbade them from doing so several years later.  The double-structured clubhouse would eventually be burnt down by kids playing with matches and the site was razed for housing and a trailer park. The only surviving piece of it-- the once welcoming "Gate House" and the actual entry gate for the club.  The work of it, seriously of some great craftsmanship and has to be seen to be appreciated!

The course was on a similar nature of land as the current Trump-LA, and not to suggest Pete didn't know what he was doing, Billy Bell didn't have the regulations thrown at him like Pete did for that property. Pete left without nearly the involvement he intended, leaving it to Perry, well we know can imagine what happened from there.

As far as Trump-LA for us lovers of great architecture, I can certainly say this: beyond the lack of defining architecture, I can certainly say it's an absolutely glorious day to be out there with a slight to medium breeze, Catalina sitting out there where you feel you can literally reach out and touch Avalon and its famed Casino.  It's the perfect golf setting, and frankly, being as snobby as they come when it concerns great architecture, I love the day out there!  Frankly, that's what it's all about!  Of course, I have every idea set in my mind how to make the place better, which holes to completely analyze and dream if someday getting the opportunity to blow them up and put in something far better.  But I could never come close to the love of the wonderful atmosphere and humble staff that work there. Many of them have been there since the day the Zuckerman's opened it with great dreams, only to hit one speed bump after another till they could do no more.  These same staff, Mr. Trump, the guy we all love to hate, still employs there, knowing how much they love the place, from club manager, course superintendent, first tee/cart guy, food servers and other staff. Director of Golf, Joe Lewis is a champ!



Martin Toal

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Re: Trump National GC Los Angeles news...
« Reply #16 on: January 21, 2015, 02:30:28 PM »
That's too bad. He should build luxury homes, or any homes really, on the range and all 18 holes.

The land it is on is ill-suited for golf. Being Trumpified adds another reason to avoid it.  I walked off after nine holes.

I completely disagree with this, or at least not entirely agree with the majority of it.

I used to drive by that land,and think to myself that it screamed golf course.  The existing land was much more rolling and had fescue/stypa like grasses blowing on it mixed between the California Coastal scrub and it ALWAYS warranted stopping, getting out of the car and looking, thinking, drewming.  If only I had my iPhone back then to take pictures!

When the golf course was planned, whether it be the powers that be or THE DYE'S (meaning Pete and Perry) the course ran into the most  dreadful curse of the Palos Verdes local authorities who deem what can and cannot be done out there. Given the great land that should have been far more protected and has since become houses, there should have been more welcoming arms into making it a most natural and fun golf course as its next door predecessor, "The Royal Palms."

Situated just due South of Trump National-Los Angeles was a course designed, built and routed by William Park Bell, which basically eliminated the thought of having to walk the terrain because you literally played your way through the steeper parts of it. From accounts, it was fun, quirky and glamorous, as it and the oceanside palazzo below it were going to be the celebration of life in Southern California in the roaring 1920's.  Sadly, the course died rather quickly due to the Great Depression and by 1934, was vacated by the bank who owned the notes on her.  This didnt stop the Golf-starved former members from wanting to play the course, as they would continue to take one day a week on Friday to come out and mow it with the club's equipment which had been left to rust away and die.  They would then spend the weekend playing golf there up until the new owners of the property eventually forbade them from doing so several years later.  The double-structured clubhouse would eventually be burnt down by kids playing with matches and the site was razed for housing and a trailer park. The only surviving piece of it-- the once welcoming "Gate House" and the actual entry gate for the club.  The work of it, seriously of some great craftsmanship and has to be seen to be appreciated!

The course was on a similar nature of land as the current Trump-LA, and not to suggest Pete didn't know what he was doing, Billy Bell didn't have the regulations thrown at him like Pete did for that property. Pete left without nearly the involvement he intended, leaving it to Perry, well we know can imagine what happened from there.

As far as Trump-LA for us lovers of great architecture, I can certainly say this: beyond the lack of defining architecture, I can certainly say it's an absolutely glorious day to be out there with a slight to medium breeze, Catalina sitting out there where you feel you can literally reach out and touch Avalon and its famed Casino.  It's the perfect golf setting, and frankly, being as snobby as they come when it concerns great architecture, I love the day out there!  Frankly, that's what it's all about!  Of course, I have every idea set in my mind how to make the place better, which holes to completely analyze and dream if someday getting the opportunity to blow them up and put in something far better.  But I could never come close to the love of the wonderful atmosphere and humble staff that work there. Many of them have been there since the day the Zuckerman's opened it with great dreams, only to hit one speed bump after another till they could do no more.  These same staff, Mr. Trump, the guy we all love to hate, still employs there, knowing how much they love the place, from club manager, course superintendent, first tee/cart guy, food servers and other staff. Director of Golf, Joe Lewis is a champ!




The staff may be great, Donald may treat them like family (in a good way), it may be better than anyone had a right to expect given the land, local planners etc etc.

But in absolute terms, most players who like classic and great golf courses and goes to Trump LA will come away underwhelmed.

Like others, I went to it wanting to, and assuming I would, like it and it would be a fun, scenic track. But I really really didn't.

Tommy Naccarato

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Re: Trump National GC Los Angeles news...
« Reply #17 on: January 21, 2015, 03:35:55 PM »
Quote
The staff may be great, Donald may treat them like family (in a good way), it may be better than anyone had a right to expect given the land, local planners etc etc.

But in absolute terms, most players who like classic and great golf courses and goes to Trump LA will come away underwhelmed.

Like others, I went to it wanting to, and assuming I would, like it and it would be a fun, scenic track. But I really really didn't.

I could have swore I was saying exactly that, with exception to be out there in a beautiful day? If in fact you didn't think it was scenic, then I think you're incapable of defining any sort of architecture, good or bad.

Fact: the architecture is horrible there.  The site itself is beautiful and I would gladly spend another day out there, thinking of what, or devising a plan of how to make it far better.  That's constructive.

Patrick_Mucci

Re: Trump National GC Los Angeles news...
« Reply #18 on: January 21, 2015, 05:17:31 PM »
Tommy,

Where did Pete Dye go wrong ?

He's not prone to bad design.

DMoriarty

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Re: Trump National GC Los Angeles news...
« Reply #19 on: January 21, 2015, 05:38:40 PM »
Patrick. 

It is beautiful place.  Just not a beautiful place for golf.
Golf history can be quite interesting if you just let your favorite legends go and allow the truth to take you where it will.
--Tom MacWood (1958-2012)

Patrick_Mucci

Re: Trump National GC Los Angeles news...
« Reply #20 on: January 21, 2015, 07:34:42 PM »
David,

When you combine a beautiful oceanside place and Pete Dye, how could you go wrong ?

Jordan Standefer

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Re: Trump National GC Los Angeles news...
« Reply #21 on: January 21, 2015, 08:50:05 PM »
Pat,

Trump LA suffers architecturally from a sense of repetitiveness.  There are a few holes and many shots out there where you stand over your ball and say to yourself, "Haven't I already played this shot?"

First off, with the exception of hole #1, every other hole plays essentially east/west.  The routing is very back and forth with little variety in regards to the wind direction.

There are five par 3s on the course, yet two of them feel too similar to others on the course.  #4 and #15 are drop shots that have almost the exact same yardages from all tee boxes and play in the same direction.  #8 and #17-- long par 3s with trouble short left and long-- are also near exact yardages and also play in the same direction.  It is very likely on these respective sets of holes you will be playing the same club with the same shot in mind.  #11 is the only one of the par 3s that feels different from the others and I think that it benefits from the land west of the clubhouse.

Similarly, three of the par 5s (#2, #7, and #12) play in the same direction and can feel repetitive as well.  (Although #12 has a cool green.)

#16 suffers from being too similar to #10, a short par 4 with trouble short left and again facing the same direction.  (Though #10 has sand short left, and #16 water.)

There are very tight spots on the course, forcing very narrow playing corridors, such as #3, #5, and #14.  Since most areas off the playing surfaces are environmentally protected areas, recovery is impossible.  This can be a huge issue if you find yourself just a little wayward, especially off the tee, and especially for the mid-handicapper.

That's not to say there aren't good holes out there.  #10, #13, and #18 hop to mind.  I have had some wonderful days out there with friends and the service is great.  But architecturally, I feel like there is a better course out there somewhere.
« Last Edit: January 23, 2015, 02:25:05 PM by Jordan Standefer »

Patrick_Mucci

Re: Trump National GC Los Angeles news...
« Reply #22 on: January 21, 2015, 10:29:08 PM »
Jordan,

Where would you place/evaluate this course in terms of Pete Dye's body of work ?

And, what would you give it on the Doak scale ?

Jordan Standefer

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Re: Trump National GC Los Angeles news...
« Reply #23 on: January 21, 2015, 11:27:19 PM »
Going by the Doak scale, you could argue a 4.

If I had to group the Pete Dye courses I've played it would look like this:

Kiawah (Ocean)
Harbour Town

PGA West (Stadium)
La Quinta (Mountain)

Trump National Los Angeles

La Quinta (Dunes)
Lost Canyons (Sky & Shadow)

Although I can only make an educated guess with regards to the rest of his work, I'd say it probably falls in the bottom third.

John Crowley

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Re: Trump National GC Los Angeles news...
« Reply #24 on: January 22, 2015, 12:47:40 AM »
That's too bad. He should build luxury homes, or any homes really, on the range and all 18 holes.

The land it is on is ill-suited for golf. Being Trumpified adds another reason to avoid it.  I walked off after nine holes.

I completely disagree with this, or at least not entirely agree with the majority of it.

I used to drive by that land,and think to myself that it screamed golf course.  The existing land was much more rolling and had fescue/stypa like grasses blowing on it mixed between the California Coastal scrub and it ALWAYS warranted stopping, getting out of the car and looking, thinking, drewming.  If only I had my iPhone back then to take pictures!

When the golf course was planned, whether it be the powers that be or THE DYE'S (meaning Pete and Perry) the course ran into the most  dreadful curse of the Palos Verdes local authorities who deem what can and cannot be done out there. Given the great land that should have been far more protected and has since become houses, there should have been more welcoming arms into making it a most natural and fun golf course as its next door predecessor, "The Royal Palms."

Situated just due South of Trump National-Los Angeles was a course designed, built and routed by William Park Bell, which basically eliminated the thought of having to walk the terrain because you literally played your way through the steeper parts of it. From accounts, it was fun, quirky and glamorous, as it and the oceanside palazzo below it were going to be the celebration of life in Southern California in the roaring 1920's.  Sadly, the course died rather quickly due to the Great Depression and by 1934, was vacated by the bank who owned the notes on her.  This didnt stop the Golf-starved former members from wanting to play the course, as they would continue to take one day a week on Friday to come out and mow it with the club's equipment which had been left to rust away and die.  They would then spend the weekend playing golf there up until the new owners of the property eventually forbade them from doing so several years later.  The double-structured clubhouse would eventually be burnt down by kids playing with matches and the site was razed for housing and a trailer park. The only surviving piece of it-- the once welcoming "Gate House" and the actual entry gate for the club.  The work of it, seriously of some great craftsmanship and has to be seen to be appreciated!

The course was on a similar nature of land as the current Trump-LA, and not to suggest Pete didn't know what he was doing, Billy Bell didn't have the regulations thrown at him like Pete did for that property. Pete left without nearly the involvement he intended, leaving it to Perry, well we know can imagine what happened from there.

As far as Trump-LA for us lovers of great architecture, I can certainly say this: beyond the lack of defining architecture, I can certainly say it's an absolutely glorious day to be out there with a slight to medium breeze, Catalina sitting out there where you feel you can literally reach out and touch Avalon and its famed Casino.  It's the perfect golf setting, and frankly, being as snobby as they come when it concerns great architecture, I love the day out there!  Frankly, that's what it's all about!  Of course, I have every idea set in my mind how to make the place better, which holes to completely analyze and dream if someday getting the opportunity to blow them up and put in something far better.  But I could never come close to the love of the wonderful atmosphere and humble staff that work there. Many of them have been there since the day the Zuckerman's opened it with great dreams, only to hit one speed bump after another till they could do no more.  These same staff, Mr. Trump, the guy we all love to hate, still employs there, knowing how much they love the place, from club manager, course superintendent, first tee/cart guy, food servers and other staff. Director of Golf, Joe Lewis is a champ!

Tommy,
I agree it it a wonderful place, the Pacific vistas are great and the staff is friendly.

The topography is too severe for any architect to have even considered it for golf.

As for the Doak scale, the course is contrived and unnatural.




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