[Bill_McBride]

Out of curiosity, is there any way to guess at the "lure" Bandon Trails and Old Macdonald have delivered? I'm not asking if people like/prefer them, or what the breakdown in rounds are. I'm asking if more people put Bandon on their destination list once they added a third and fourth course.

Anecdotally, just based on people I know who have been there or want to go there, I'm inclined to say no. It sure seemed to me that Bandon with 2 courses was 99% as attractive to 99% as many golfers as Bandon with many courses.

Even if that were true however, the extra courses make it possible to handle a lot more rounds of golf at peak times and I wouldn't doubt it adds to the allure of return visits. I certainly have heard people make comments about having enjoyed their trip and their only regret was only having played one round at [fill in the blank] course there.

I think the the additional courses have made regular return visits more appealing.  For initial and second visits they are likely of next to no effect.

I went to Bandon a few times when it was two courses. Since Trails I have been about 12 more times. The depth and variety of the courses make a 4 day 8 round trip ideal.

I can hear that Canadian dollar getting stronger!

[John Kavanaugh]

Omg. Doedceveribechsbecforvdgsvirvis just be. Fuchs in dung. I need help. 

[John Kavanaugh]

I'm along I ca y find my family. Helps !!!

[John Kavanaugh]

Nicety wants to bourse Gluck my ass.   

[Tom_Doak]

Which site didn't you find as cool as Streamsong?

1. Barnbougle
2. Pac Dunes
3. Cape Kidnappers
4. Ballyneal
5. Rock Creek
6. Tara iti
7. Renaissance.
8.  Dismal

I am probably neglecting some other cool places you have been able to work.  For me, Streamsong, as a site, isn't remotely as cool as any of the 8 above.

Bart:

No doubt, I've had a chance to work on a lot of cool sites.  But I think your list gives a lot of points for being proximate to the ocean. 

Cape Kidnappers, for example, doesn't have nearly as many cool ground features to use for golf as Streamsong does ... but it does have a lot more "edges" going down into canyons and out to Hawke's Bay.  [On second thought, Cape Kidnappers DID have a lot of cool features, but we couldn't figure out how to use them for golf unless people were using jet packs to get from one hole to the next.]

Tara iti was covered with trees; the only really exciting ground features that we identified in the beginning were the clubhouse ridge that is a feature of the 7th, 9th, 10th and 18th holes, the saddle in the dunes for the 4th, the green site for the 5th and the fairway of the 6th.  I didn't even know a lot of the views of the islands and of Mangawhai Heads would be a feature of the golf until after the clearing was well advanced. 

The Renaissance Club had its stone walls, and the ridge in front of the 7th green.

Ballyneal is better TERRAIN for golf than Streamsong, but a lot of the cool features there are built [bunkers and greens], rather than found.  A few of the green sites [3, 4, 5, part of 6] were mostly there, as was the cool hourglass pinch point in the fairway on #8.

Streamsong had a ton of cool little features to utilize for golf.  The mound next to the green on #7 Red, for instance, was an existing feature which was the making of a great golf hole, as was the deep fairway pit to the left of #15.  On the Blue course, nearly half the holes had some cool feature like that to sink our teeth into -- for example the little ridge at the back right of #11 green, or the ridge running through the green on #12, or the little trough in the green on #15 [and the ridge 75 yards short that blinds it], or the abrupt rise where the cross-bunkers sit on #17 [we barely had to dig to make those].

Pacific Dunes and Barnbougle and Rock Creek had features like that on almost every hole.


Hope that helps back up what I wrote earlier.  I hated to distract from John's posts though.

[JR Potts]

I hated to distract from John's posts though.

I laughed out loud at this one.  Might be the funniest thing I've read on GCA in a long time.

Anyone know what bourse glucking is?

[Patrick_Mucci]

Tom Doak,

Interesting that you mention those features as they, along with the entire site, were discussed at length.

We were fascinated by the land and how you wove golf courses through it, using elevation changes, etc.,etc.

I'm a big fan of both courses at Streamsong, but partial to the Blue.

I'm curious about the crossovers and if there was any discussion on not crossing over.

Thanks

[Bill Brightly]

From Pat Mucci

[Stephen Davis]

Omg. Doedceveribechsbecforvdgsvirvis just be. Fuchs in dung. I need help. 

Has anyone checked on John? Apparently he needed help.

[Eric Smith]

Omg. Doedceveribechsbecforvdgsvirvis just be. Fuchs in dung. I need help. 

Has anyone checked on John? Apparently he needed help.

Doc - Every few years John takes a trip to DisneyWorld. As I understand he was just really enjoying Pirates of the Caribbean and was typing in the dark.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Bill,

Those critters serve a valueable function at Streamsong.

They place an emphasis on hitting fairways and greens to the exclusion of other areas.

[Bill Vogeney]

Played the Red in January, along with both courses three weeks ago. Met the director of golf, talked to the marketing manager, dined in all of the dining facilities. I can say that Streamsong is what golf should be about. First of all, the courses are very walkable. You can ride, but only later in the day, I think after 11AM, so walkers get priority. Secondly, they are FUN to play. There is plenty of width off the tee, but you can't get stupid or sloppy, especially on the Blue. The one par 4, it might be the 9th at the Blue, has a simple little bunker in the middle of the fairway, but it really forces you to pick a very specific line even on a 60 yard wide fairway. 3. The green complexes are amazing. You have to think your way into the greens, you can use slopes to shape your shot in, and you can't automatically grab your 60 degree around the green. I am a national member at Prairie Dunes, and while the turf around the greens is not quite a tight as it is around Streamsong, many of my guests struggle for a couple of days until they realize that a hybrid or 7 iron works just as well in firm conditions as anything.  While you can use a lofted wedge around the greens as long as you understand how to use the bounce, you really have a lot of options at Streamsong.

Which is my favorite? After playing the Blue, I would have to give it the narrowest of margins over the Red, I think solely because of the green complexes. I think Tom got the best of the potential green sites. I can't even name them all without a scorecard, my pictures, and some notes. Doesn't matter to me they aren't on the ocean....of course I have not been to Bandon.

Too many courses, too little time...

[Patrick_Mucci]

Bill,

It's # 11, and that centerline bunker can give you fits, especially into the wind.

I have my doubts about the cart restriction

For Streamsong to prosper, it can't be a one and done experience.

Ideally, you want golfers to play 36 a day and stay a day or two or more.

36 a day over two or three days without a cart can be too much for older golfers or golfers with physical issues.
And, it's your older golfer who can afford a two and three day stay.

I know of a 65 year old golfer who spent 3 days at Streamsong, said he loved it, but wouldn't return for a multi-day stay and play without being able to use a cart on all rounds.

Guys who walk and carry/buggy don't help the caddy program and chances are don't stay over for a night or two.

And, even when using a cart, the restrictions on where carts can go, makes for a long walking round.

So, I'm not a walking only or walking priority supporter.

I think cart restrictions will hurt Streamsong's bottom line.

I think the addition of a third, and a fourth course and the easing of cart restrictions will dramatically boost occupancy rates at theHotel

[Joe Zucker]

I agree with a lot of what you said about the future or Stramsong, Patrick.  I just played 36 there this week and it was a great day.  I'll have more to say on the course once I think it over some more.

As for the future, I hate to say it but I agree that easing cart rules would probably help.  My dad (who is 66) and I walked 36 and it is a very tiring day.  No way he could do that again without 2 weeks of rest and he walks most of his rounds.  Adding another course would increase it's appeal as a destination for a 3 day stay.  While I really loved the walking priority and would love for it to stay that way, Streamsong would probably do better allowing ore carts.  The courses are very walkable, but I wouldn't call it an easy walk as there is more elevation there than a lot of Florida courses.

[Daniel Jones]

Although I wouldn't suggest anyone take a cart, I agree that the walk, especially if doing 36 a day, can be tough at best. My brother and I were planning an upcoming outing with our dad for his birthday and we decided against Streamsong because we weren't sure he'd enjoy the 2nd day, likely still exhausted from the first.

I'm not too keen on easing the cart restrictions, but I'm not sure what else they could do to overcome this.

And Bill...you pretty much summed up everything I love about Streamsong!

[Patrick_Mucci]

Joe & Daniel,

We have an aging population, a remote "destination" resort, 36 terrific and possibly 54+ holes, a 218 room hotel plus a12 room Clubhouse, 3.5 restaurants and occupancy rates hovering around 33 % or lower.

As an owner you want multi-round play each day and you want multi-day stays.

Driving away or eliminating golfers who prefer or require a cart is not a practical business plan if you want to increase play and occupancy rates.

Traveling from Philadelphia, Chicago, Detroit, Boston, New York and other northern cities in the winter isn't cheap.

Chances are, those traveling in the winter, during the week, are older, more affluent golfers, and as such, playing 36 a day for 3 days in a row may be too taxing for them.

In a letter I wrote to the USGA years ago, about cart use for the Senior Am and Open, I wrote that when I played in the USGA Amateur, I didn't notice many golfers with hip & knee Replacements, heart By-Passes and Angioplasties, Cancer survivors, diabetics, chronic arthritis and other physical conditions that would impede and preclude their ability to play 36 a day, day after day.

The same applies to Streamsong.

Not long ago I played 72 holes in a day and would have played 90.
But, I couldn't have done it without a cart.

There seems to be an emerging subculture that deifies walking or perhaps demonizes riding, while seeming to ignore that golfing segment comprised of an aging population that has physical limitations and needs carts in order to play 18 or 36 holes, in one day or over several consecutive days.

On a visit, my foursome was comprised of golfers aged 72, 71, 65 and 58 and the 58 year old had a double by-pass not long ago.
So, are they going to walk and play 36 a day for three straight days ?   NO

Would they play 36 a day for three straight days with carts ?     YES

[Daniel Jones]

All solid points, Patrick. On the one hand, I don't want to see the "Walking Philosophy" as they call it lost. But on the other, as a Floridian I enjoy having Streamsong in my backyard. The last thing I'd want to see is it evolve into a "one and done" destination.

[Cliff Hamm]

As a compromise wouldn't it make sense to allow carts for those over 60?  Yes, that changes the ambiance but it would seem to work for all.  I would not require a 'forecaddie' for taking a cart, but would have excellent signage and equip the carts with gps.  If they go where they don't belong they would be disabled as some courses do when it is cart path only.

[Joe Zucker]

I agree, Patrick.  It does seem like carts are necessary in some regard.  Bandon is obviously doing just fine as a walking facility (I've never been, so hard for me to compare), so it appears a similar facility at Streamsong is possible.  But I have no idea if it will be as successful or need to add more carts for the reason Patrick suggests.

On a personal note, as long as they keep paved cart paths off of the property, allowing more carts wouldn't bother me too much as a walker.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Cliff,

Those carts can slow play significantly and they're prone to coverage zone errors.

In an ideal golf world at Streamsong you'd like to see two and three night stays with 36 hole per day where practical.

You don't have to be 60 to experience health issues that make 36 a day for two or three days in a row a difficult to impossible task.

What I don't understand is the following:

Why is anyone concerned about how other foursomes get about the golf course ?

As long as every foursome plays in less than 4 hours, why should you care whether they carry, walk with caddies, ride carts with caddies.

Other than turf concerns, what's the objection to carts ?

[Cliff Hamm]

Pat...agreed.  If under 60 exemptions for disabilities without having to jump thru hoops. 

The answer, I suspect, for why would anyone care about how others get around the golf course, would be ambiance.  Yet, what does it really matter?  Not unlike cargo shorts.   Why should you really care how others dress as long as it is within reason.  We would all be better off going about our business and not being so quick to "judge" others.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Pat...agreed.  If under 60 exemptions for disabilities without having to jump thru hoops. 

The answer, I suspect, for why would anyone care about how others get around the golf course, would be ambiance. 

Yet, what does it really matter?  Not unlike cargo shorts.   

Why should you really care how others dress as long as it is within reason. 
We would all be better off going about our business and not being so quick to "judge" others.

Cliff,

Why have any standards at all ?

Why require clothes, especially in that hot Florida sun where you could get a good tan without any clothes while playing golf.

To equate a dress code with cart use tells me all I need to know.

[Mark Chaplin]

A 33% or lower occupancy rate suggests their price point is miles out.

[K Rafkin]

A 33% or lower occupancy rate suggests their price point is miles out.

Not only that, but Streamsong has chosen to go with the non transparent and inconsistent pricing model.  In Streamsongs attempts to copy Bandon they have failed in providing the clear and conscience pricing information that bandon has to offer.  The only way to figure out how much a round of golf at Streamsong costs is to go ahead and start the booking process, and the same applies for the rooms.  Does Streamsong offer replays?  If so how much?  Is your third round free?  Most people I've encountered are completely unaware of the six hole rates existence let alone the cost.  The answers to these questions are nowhere to be found on the website.  When people are considering Streamsong for their next adventure they want to budget things out and know the costs.  When this information isn't made clear through the website a potential visitor may be steered in the direction of another destination. 

I went to book a single room and 36 holes to find out that it was considerably cheaper to do so a la carte instead of selecting a package! 

Anyway...what Streamsong needs more than changing its cart restrictions is more golf hole.  Although Streamsong is fairly accessible we all can agree its in the middle of nowhere.  Despite how awesome the courses are 36 holes isn't enough to draw the masses in especially when it comes down to lengthier stays, especially when considering it isn't on the ocean.  Streamsong is a 1-3 day maximum adventure right now, which unfortunately is non sustainable.  Groups will continue to flock towards bandon, kohler, and pinehurst simply because of the number of holes.

[JMEvensky]

A 33% or lower occupancy rate suggests their price point is miles out.

Not only that, but Streamsong has chosen to go with the non transparent and inconsistent pricing model.  In Streamsongs attempts to copy Bandon they have failed in providing the clear and conscience pricing information that bandon has to offer.  The only way to figure out how much a round of golf at Streamsong costs is to go ahead and start the booking process, and the same applies for the rooms.  Does Streamsong offer replays?  If so how much?  Is your third round free?  Most people I've encountered are completely unaware of the six hole rates existence let alone the cost.  The answers to these questions are nowhere to be found on the website.  When people are considering Streamsong for their next adventure they want to budget things out and know the costs.  When this information isn't made clear through the website a potential visitor may be steered in the direction of another destination. 

I went to book a single room and 36 holes to find out that it was considerably cheaper to do so a la carte instead of selecting a package! 

Anyway...what Streamsong needs more than changing its cart restrictions is more golf hole.  Although Streamsong is fairly accessible we all can agree its in the middle of nowhere.  Despite how awesome the courses are 36 holes isn't enough to draw the masses in especially when it comes down to lengthier stays, especially when considering it isn't on the ocean.  Streamsong is a 1-3 day maximum adventure right now, which unfortunately is non sustainable.  Groups will continue to flock towards bandon, kohler, and pinehurst simply because of the number of holes.

This must be a generational thing. I planned an 8 man trip with 2 phone calls to the resort. It never would've dawned on me to book it through their website-- I prefer a real human to contact with questions.

And I agree with those who think carts should be available. For most,walking 36 isn't playing golf so much as a survival test. Resorts aren't usually in the business of survival tests.

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