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Mark Jackson

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Re: Piqua CC (Ohio) - closing
« Reply #50 on: December 19, 2014, 08:32:52 AM »
Thanks for the photos, Richard. I played Piqua Country Club a few times during high school in the late 90s. Since it has been so long, I didn't remember many of the holes.

It's a shame that the membership put the course/club in jeopardy by building the new clubhouse.

Richard Hetzel

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Piqua CC (Ohio) - closing
« Reply #51 on: December 19, 2014, 11:41:02 AM »
I think that the last thing a good "golf club" needs is a $2 Million Dollar clubhouse. It sounds like the "golf club" may have been banking on weddings and event rentals for pay for the new clubhouse. I guess that it did not pan out as expected.  It will be interesting to see what happens to the golf course.
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Lou_Duran

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Piqua CC (Ohio) - closing
« Reply #52 on: December 19, 2014, 01:05:00 PM »

I'll pass Lou.  You are the 14th freest state in the US.  I'd move to a top 5.  http://freedominthe50states.org/overall/texas
Piqua was running just fine before progressives Keynesians took over.  ''Spending creates prosperity''.   It is funny how you are into visiting low key private clubs in the UK.  You also should never put your roots down. 

Great post Mr Farron.  Findlay is a gem. 

I am confused.  I would never suggest that you move to Texas- we already have more than our quota of Yankees!  My impression was that you live in MI or northern OH, thus the suggestion that you move south to convert the mythical debt-free (via foreclosure and gifting by the bank) Piqua CC to a daily-fee golf club  (you seem to be among those who believe golf-only is the way to go).  As to Lord Keynes, I wasn't aware that he offered opinions on CC economics.  And what does my occasional visits to the UK have anything to do with putting down roots?  But for a brief, but very long three year period starting in 2006, I've been in Texas since 1978.  If my roots aren't deep yet, I guess I'll be toppled over by the next big wind.

That's more interesting and more practical than the reality of Weibull(1.5,1), standard normal, Beta(9,3).

Why? (are you taking the class?)  You didn't come across as the Quant type.

DFarron,

Lived in Findlay for five summers while in college.  I am eternally thankful to the Whirlpool plant there for paying me to work 50+ hour weeks and to Ed Kotlartczyk for letting me buy a summer pass at his Hillcrest GC (where I worked on my game and made my first Ace as he was jogging by the green).  Findlay was a very prosperous town anchored by Marathon Oil, Cooper Tire, Whirlpool, Dow, and a sugar refinery whose name escapes me.  I suspect that a demographic analysis would show that Findlay has far superior characteristics in terms of supporting a full service CC than Lima and probably Piqua (which I really don't know much about).

Looking at Richard's pictures, it appears that Piqua has the superior course of the three.  I hope it can be saved. 

 

BHoover

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Piqua CC (Ohio) - closing
« Reply #53 on: December 19, 2014, 01:19:19 PM »
So is anyone going to try to play here before it shuts down? If I was still in Columbus, I'd do it. Unfortunately, I'm not and the weather where I am is decidedly not conducive to golf any time soon.

JLahrman

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Piqua CC (Ohio) - closing
« Reply #54 on: December 19, 2014, 02:23:26 PM »

That's more interesting and more practical than the reality of Weibull(1.5,1), standard normal, Beta(9,3).

Why? (are you taking the class?)  You didn't come across as the Quant type.

I was an actuary for four years once upon a time. Then got an MBA. Then worked at a branding consultancy for nine years doing market research (small data - Excel and SPSS were sufficient).

Now I'm at a predictive analytics company working with bigger data. Working on learning R and Python, and trying to brush up on SQL. I'm not much of a programmer but I'm picking it up. It's hard work keeping up with these kids!

Lou_Duran

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Piqua CC (Ohio) - closing
« Reply #55 on: December 19, 2014, 02:46:34 PM »
Oh, I thought you were a brand manager (marketing).  Well then, can you tell me why when I left click on a character and drag down to the end of say, a paragraph to copy or delete, it doesn't lock on the highlighted area when I release the button?  Is my mouse going bad or is it a malware issue?  I've put fresh batteries in, tried to keep the path to the transmitter thing (plugged to the computer) by raising my hand to ensure I am not blocking the signal, but nothing solves the problem.  Thoughts?

BCowan

Re: Piqua CC (Ohio) - closing
« Reply #56 on: December 19, 2014, 03:12:42 PM »

I'll pass Lou.  You are the 14th freest state in the US.  I'd move to a top 5.  http://freedominthe50states.org/overall/texas
Piqua was running just fine before progressives Keynesians took over.  ''Spending creates prosperity''.   It is funny how you are into visiting low key private clubs in the UK.  You also should never put your roots down.  

Great post Mr Farron.  Findlay is a gem.  

I am confused.  I would never suggest that you move to Texas- we already have more than our quota of Yankees!  My impression was that you live in MI or northern OH, thus the suggestion that you move south to convert the mythical debt-free (via foreclosure and gifting by the bank) Piqua CC to a daily-fee golf club  (you seem to be among those who believe golf-only is the way to go).  As to Lord Keynes, I wasn't aware that he offered opinions on CC economics.  And what does my occasional visits to the UK have anything to do with putting down roots?  But for a brief, but very long three year period starting in 2006, I've been in Texas since 1978.  If my roots aren't deep yet, I guess I'll be toppled over by the next big wind.

That's more interesting and more practical than the reality of Weibull(1.5,1), standard normal, Beta(9,3).

Why? (are you taking the class?)  You didn't come across as the Quant type.

DFarron,

Lived in Findlay for five summers while in college.  I am eternally thankful to the Whirlpool plant there for paying me to work 50+ hour weeks and to Ed Kotlartczyk for letting me buy a summer pass at his Hillcrest GC (where I worked on my game and made my first Ace as he was jogging by the green).  Findlay was a very prosperous town anchored by Marathon Oil, Cooper Tire, Whirlpool, Dow, and a sugar refinery whose name escapes me.  I suspect that a demographic analysis would show that Findlay has far superior characteristics in terms of supporting a full service CC than Lima and probably Piqua (which I really don't know much about).

Looking at Richard's pictures, it appears that Piqua has the superior course of the three.  I hope it can be saved.  

 

''suggestion that you move south to convert the mythical debt-free (via foreclosure and gifting by the bank) Piqua CC to a daily-fee golf club  (you seem to be among those who believe golf-only is the way to go).''

What does convert the mythical debt-free Piqua CC mean?  Are you confused on how the debt was incurred?  Please provide some sort of quote where i said it should be converted into a daily fee golf club?  I know you don't like your words twisted and taken out of context, but you love to do it with others.  ''Golf-only'', what does that mean?  You are inferring that what is good for Dallas National is good for Piqua, which is beyond absurd.  I believe in not incurring debt, especially for beautification, repairs are different.   You may have too many Yanks in Texas, you also have too many NeoCons.  Hillcrest is up for sale.  One of the Kotlartczyk brothers wanted to sell and the other didn't.  They missed out on making some good money.  There is an upscale public Art Hills track in Findlay that put Hillcrest to pasture is my guess.
« Last Edit: December 20, 2014, 12:19:36 PM by BCowan »

Greg Tallman

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Piqua CC (Ohio) - closing
« Reply #57 on: December 19, 2014, 03:15:59 PM »

I'll pass Lou.  You are the 14th freest state in the US.  I'd move to a top 5.  http://freedominthe50states.org/overall/texas
Piqua was running just fine before progressives Keynesians took over.  ''Spending creates prosperity''.   It is funny how you are into visiting low key private clubs in the UK.  You also should never put your roots down. 

Great post Mr Farron.  Findlay is a gem. 

I am confused.  I would never suggest that you move to Texas- we already have more than our quota of Yankees!  My impression was that you live in MI or northern OH, thus the suggestion that you move south to convert the mythical debt-free (via foreclosure and gifting by the bank) Piqua CC to a daily-fee golf club  (you seem to be among those who believe golf-only is the way to go).  As to Lord Keynes, I wasn't aware that he offered opinions on CC economics.  And what does my occasional visits to the UK have anything to do with putting down roots?  But for a brief, but very long three year period starting in 2006, I've been in Texas since 1978.  If my roots aren't deep yet, I guess I'll be toppled over by the next big wind.


Deep, infrequent watering may help your root growth.

Steve Lang

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Piqua CC (Ohio) - closing
« Reply #58 on: December 19, 2014, 04:37:38 PM »
 8)  Richard H.   thanks for the pics...  brought back better memories than looking at the satellite view...

In regards to Lima & Shawnee CC.. when I lived there in 81-91 last century, we asked one day how much to join? ...The response was, "if you have to ask, its too much!"  The regular people belonged to Lost Creek or Hawthorne Hills (Bo Contini was a force) and you could play Tamarac for next to nothing and get in 9 before work... and didn't mind some 90 degree dog leg holes...  Always nice to have friends in the various towns,,, like Fostoria, it had a nice CC, or play in dead of winter at Sun Rise, OH and walk on water..

We used to have business dinners at the Shawnee CC because our plant manager belonged there.. there was some big business there, Sohio/StdOhio/BP legacy refinery  & chem plants, The Chrysler M-1 tank plant (really cool to see them build tanks,test climb 45 degree hills and race around  at 60 mph!), Ford engine plant, P&G soap plant, what was left of Clark Equipment (big excavators digging giant holes in their back yard),  the pipeline companies, and the medical complex as mentioned.  Very important to note that pipe-fitters in Lima could approach 6-figure salaries!

So distance is one thing, disposable $ probably more important... no big deal to drive to next county, or several away to play golf with friends.  While we might play a dozen rounds each spring in 5 days at Southern Pines, one would only play perhaps 3 dozen more times spring to fall, as weather permits.  No real reason to belong to a club when wanderlust prevails or you just can't trust the weather... When in TX I've played 4x as much golf and enjoy it.

From Lima, never much reason to stop in Piqua other than the turtles and to get gas... on way to eat in Dayton! 
Inverness (Toledo, OH) cathedral clock inscription: "God measures men by what they are. Not what they in wealth possess.  That vibrant message chimes afar.
The voice of Inverness"

Will Lozier

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Piqua CC (Ohio) - closing
« Reply #59 on: December 19, 2014, 05:02:01 PM »
Not to support. Just to outline. They say that those who can't do, teach, so I figured you might need the concept of a "normal distribution" spelled out a bit.

Thanks for the tutorial.  Thankfully, my engineering degree gives me just enough background to understand your "fake normal distribution".  And yes, having taught AP Stats reinforces the fact that your fabricated data makes your "study" inherently flawed.  You did do a good job of demonstrating how stats can be presented to seemingly support just about any theory a wordy psuedo-statistician-golfer could come up with.

Is that what they say?  I guess what drove me away from the golf profession and into teaching math and coaching soccer was having to teach know-it-alls who can't apply basic concepts of rhythm and timing to their unathletic nonrepetitive swing because they're too worried about their face angle at the top; overly concerned about what type of shot they should play when hitting the clubface should be their main goal as it happens all too infrequently.  Does that describe you?  And what is your profession professor?

Lou_Duran

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Piqua CC (Ohio) - closing
« Reply #60 on: December 19, 2014, 05:05:03 PM »

''suggestion that you move south to convert the mythical debt-free (via foreclosure and gifting by the bank) Piqua CC to a daily-fee golf club  (you seem to be among those who believe golf-only is the way to go).''

What does convert the mythical debt-free Piqua CC mean?  Are you confused on how the debt was incurred?  Please provide some sort of quote where i said it should be converted into a daily fee golf club?  I know you don't like your words twisted and taken out of context, but you love to do it with others.  ''Golf-only'', what does that mean?  You are inferring that what is good for Dallas National is good for Piqua, which is beyond absurd.  I believe in not incurring debt, especially for beautification, repairs are different.   You may have to many Yanks in Texas, you also have too many NeoCons.  Hillcrest is up for sale.  One of the Kotlartczyk brothers wanted to sell and the other didn't.  This missed out on making some good money.  There is an upscale public Art Hills track in Findlay that put Hillcrest to pasture is my guess.

I should have know better than to engage you, but I will give it one last try.

In an earlier post on this thread, Jerry Kessler provided a link to an article about a Dayton area CC whose principals were trying to donate it to the community.  In a later post, I suggested that a potential solution to the Piqua CC debt problem would be for Chase to foreclose on the club thus eliminating all junior debt.  It could then donate the facility to the community.  "Mythical", "debt-free", "golf-only", "daily-fee" were my words, which I don't think I was trying to twist.  The new structure I proposed is mythical because it is nearly a sure thing that Chase would not just walk away from $2Million (though it is just a drop in the bucket corporately); daily-fee because if it was donated to the community (debt-free), it would be for the benefit of the public and not just the former members whose rights were extinguished in foreclosure; and golf-only because there seems to be a strong opinion here that clubhouses, dining rooms, and pools are big money losers.

As to Dallas National and whatever inferences you thought I was making, I have absolutely no idea what you are talking about.  It is my belief that we have an abundance of very knowledgeable back seat drivers on this site who possess incredible vision in hindsight.  Decisions made in 1999 may have been quite correct given the information available at the time.  Expecting club leaders to anticipate the tragedy of 9/11 and the meltdown of the housing industry in '08 is unreasonable.  I know a few things about these matters and wouldn't think of pointing a finger at these decision makers.  Sometimes one can make all the right choices and still get run over by a truck.

There is no one club model that works everywhere and every time.  There are CCs where the clubhouse and the social activities (read: NOT the golf course) are what drives membership.  Dallas CC is one of these.  The golf-only model works well for Dallas National probably only 15 miles away.  Knowing the type of people that usually rise to positions of authority at private clubs, I give them the benefit of the doubt long before I do some folks on this DG.

You are right about one thing. Texas also has no shortage of "NeoCons".  I find these folks rather refreshing as they don't whine like the left or the right, and still have some hope that government can be a force for good.  I'd go hunting with Dick Cheney in a heartbeat.  

Steve Lang,

My father-in-law was a member at HH.  He was a Sheller Globe/Superior Coach distributor so he drove a new Cadillac for two years which Bo Contini would then buy directly like clockwork.  Over the years I probably played more than 20 rounds there and bought a couple sets of clubs from Bo.  I never played Shawnee, not because we didn't have access, but my F-I-L just preferred HH.  Tim Ries was the HP at Shawnee the last time I was there (maybe for dinner) and we had a nice chat about our time at OSU.  I never got the impression that the club was snobby, particularly expensive, or all that exclusive.  Ditto for Findlay CC.
« Last Edit: December 19, 2014, 05:08:55 PM by Lou_Duran »

Steve Lang

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Piqua CC (Ohio) - closing
« Reply #61 on: December 19, 2014, 05:31:31 PM »
 8)  Lou,

I have some memories of Bo C too, first met him in April 1979 when I investigated the fish kill in his pond after a big big rain... even the crayfish were walking out of the pond after it turned over!  He wanted to blame it on P&G... years later he still had fish in the freezer hoping to still pin it on P&G..  and I think I may remember him still driving a Caddy.. it just fit him!

Shawnee CC in those days was pretty well taken care of.. it routinely hosted high school level and regional events.  I remember it as tight and good greens.. as we lived at 1616 Fairway Dr on its west side i have some fond memories of walking around there in the evenings with a 7 iron and hawking for balls in some of the woods..  only played it a couple of times in 10 years...

Have a great 2015
Inverness (Toledo, OH) cathedral clock inscription: "God measures men by what they are. Not what they in wealth possess.  That vibrant message chimes afar.
The voice of Inverness"

BCowan

Re: Piqua CC (Ohio) - closing
« Reply #62 on: December 19, 2014, 05:41:07 PM »
...

« Last Edit: December 21, 2014, 10:40:05 PM by BCowan »

Jason Thurman

  • Karma: +1/-0
Re: Piqua CC (Ohio) - closing
« Reply #63 on: December 19, 2014, 08:52:20 PM »
...my engineering degree gives me just enough background to... teach math

Like they were saying.
"There will always be haters. That’s just the way it is. Hating dudes marry hating women and have hating ass kids." - Evan Turner

Some of y'all have never been called out in bold green font and it really shows.

BHoover

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Piqua CC (Ohio) - closing
« Reply #64 on: December 19, 2014, 09:03:58 PM »
Why does seemingly every thread turn out the same? Who gives a sh!t about politics when discussing golf and course architecture? I view golf as an escape from everyday life and concerns. In my professional life I get to discuss and debate and deal with law, tax policy and the political concerns that come along with that. But rarely, if ever does golf have anything to do with that, at least for me.

Piqua is closing. I don't see how Dick Chaney has anything to do with that...maybe I'm missing something?

Will Lozier

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Piqua CC (Ohio) - closing
« Reply #65 on: December 19, 2014, 11:00:04 PM »
...my engineering degree gives me just enough background to... teach math

Like they were saying.

Jason, I'll ask again...what do you do other wax poetic on this website?  Watch South Park?

noonan

Re: Piqua CC (Ohio) - closing
« Reply #66 on: December 20, 2014, 01:19:24 AM »
I received a call from my insurance man today who is a member at Troy. He had lunch today with a member at Piqua who is on the board. Chase is not willing to accept anything less and as of 1/1/15 all employees are being let go according to the source on Piqua's board. The members still want to purchase but not at top dollar.

It boils down to location. Piqua has a much better course than Troy. But Troy has a better location.

noonan

Re: Piqua CC (Ohio) - closing
« Reply #67 on: December 20, 2014, 01:24:50 AM »
The city of Clayton approved the acceptance of Meadowbrook CC.

noonan

Re: Piqua CC (Ohio) - closing
« Reply #68 on: December 20, 2014, 01:33:31 AM »

Richard Hetzel

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Piqua CC (Ohio) - closing
« Reply #69 on: December 20, 2014, 07:50:18 AM »

I'll pass Lou.  You are the 14th freest state in the US.  I'd move to a top 5.  http://freedominthe50states.org/overall/texas
Piqua was running just fine before progressives Keynesians took over.  ''Spending creates prosperity''.   It is funny how you are into visiting low key private clubs in the UK.  You also should never put your roots down. 

Great post Mr Farron.  Findlay is a gem. 

I am confused.  I would never suggest that you move to Texas- we already have more than our quota of Yankees!  My impression was that you live in MI or northern OH, thus the suggestion that you move south to convert the mythical debt-free (via foreclosure and gifting by the bank) Piqua CC to a daily-fee golf club  (you seem to be among those who believe golf-only is the way to go).  As to Lord Keynes, I wasn't aware that he offered opinions on CC economics.  And what does my occasional visits to the UK have anything to do with putting down roots?  But for a brief, but very long three year period starting in 2006, I've been in Texas since 1978.  If my roots aren't deep yet, I guess I'll be toppled over by the next big wind.

That's more interesting and more practical than the reality of Weibull(1.5,1), standard normal, Beta(9,3).

Why? (are you taking the class?)  You didn't come across as the Quant type.

DFarron,

Lived in Findlay for five summers while in college.  I am eternally thankful to the Whirlpool plant there for paying me to work 50+ hour weeks and to Ed Kotlartczyk for letting me buy a summer pass at his Hillcrest GC (where I worked on my game and made my first Ace as he was jogging by the green).  Findlay was a very prosperous town anchored by Marathon Oil, Cooper Tire, Whirlpool, Dow, and a sugar refinery whose name escapes me.  I suspect that a demographic analysis would show that Findlay has far superior characteristics in terms of supporting a full service CC than Lima and probably Piqua (which I really don't know much about).

Looking at Richard's pictures, it appears that Piqua has the superior course of the three.  I hope it can be saved. 

 

PIONEER Sugar!
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Chris_Blakely

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Piqua CC (Ohio) - closing
« Reply #70 on: December 20, 2014, 11:22:02 AM »
Yes, it is pioneer sugar the two silos are still there.


I know on a recent trip by Piqua cc the flags were still out.

Chris

Lou_Duran

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Piqua CC (Ohio) - closing
« Reply #71 on: December 20, 2014, 12:39:05 PM »
Thanks for posting the link to the city council meeting Jerry.  Viewed the relevant parts of it including the owners comments after the city agreed to accept the donation.  Very impressive proceedings with the proper questions asked and a reasonable approach mapped out to determine the future of the course.  Seems like a nice windfall for the city provided they can have it managed professionally. Don't know anything about the golf course though the aerial appears to show that it has promise for its intended use as a municipal course.  I am surprised how low the # of rounds were under the current ownership.  Best of luck to Meadowbrook and Clayton.

Richard, I can still remember driving from Columbus that when I could get a whiff from the Pioneer operations, I was close to home.

Steve, I recall the fish kill at HH.  I think Bo was still pissed for years after it.  That damned 18th hole often ate my lunch, but I always thought it was a good risk/reward hole.  Don't remember the P&G plant having a discharge that could get to the lake.  I wonder how HH is doing financially.  Bo and his family sure ran a tight ship back then.

BCowan

Re: Piqua CC (Ohio) - closing
« Reply #72 on: December 21, 2014, 10:39:08 PM »


It was great to get 8 guys together on a winters day! Especially from long distances away!  It shows how great of a community GCA really is!  Piqua was a good track, it was better than I initially thought.  The Ross holes encompassed the land with the best movement.  The openers on each side were very solid.  Each 9 finished strongly.  The short par 3 9th was a great hole.  Had a blast today guys

Nigel Islam

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Piqua CC (Ohio) - closing
« Reply #73 on: December 22, 2014, 12:17:38 AM »
Congrats to the guys who made the trek. Sounded interesting. Wish I could have made it.

Richard Hetzel

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Piqua CC (Ohio) - closing
« Reply #74 on: December 22, 2014, 09:02:03 AM »
Ben, Glad you guys squeezed in a round, just in case Piqua CC goes "NLE". How cold was it???
Last 5:
Bobby Jones (FL) Arcadia Municipal (FL) Eisenhower Lakes (GA) Augusta Municipal (GA) Foresthills GC (GA)

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