[Carl Rogers]

Of course it works and works well.  It was in our MP plan and in Doak's MP plan for Cherry Hills (it was Flynn's original design concept for Cherry Hills taken from #7 at Pine Valley).  Tom's team restored it and it worked well in the BMW Championship!  We have a "Hell's Half Acre" concept at my home club (Lehigh CC), an old Flynn design and it is my (and many others) favorite hole on the golf course.  

FYI, the membership has asked to soften that feature.

Just putting in a cross bunker on a par-5 hole is hard enough to justify nowadays.  The ones on the 17th at Streamsong (Blue) attracted a lot of attention and praise, I think just because you so seldom see such features anymore.  But building a feature that requires 75 yards of carry just kills the average woman golfer.  Pine Valley doesn't have to care about that, but most clubs do!

Tom, please remember the 18th at Riverfront .... more than a 75 yard carry. (for those of you not familiar, it is a wetland - hazard all the way across the fairway at the +/-350 yard mark)

[jeffwarne]

I am not saying the HHAs should be built, but if found and used, I am having a hard time seeing the issue.  Sometimes, the greater percentage of golfers has to be ignored if greatness is staring the archie in the face.  This is why forward tees should exist.  Think of Calamity Corner.  It would be a calamity if an archie decided that hole shouldn't be included because some people can't make the carry.  There are many examples of fine holes of this nature.  Again, sometimes it makes sense to make weaker players walk forward to a shorter tee.  All holes can't be all things to all golfers.

Ciao

Sean,

How would a shorter tee help a lower clubhead speed player on HHA?
The hazard exists from the 285 mark to the 380 mark.(according to Ran review on this site)
There are many regular golfers who do not carry the ball 95 yards and that's not a driver (which =s about 125-145 total yards)
Are you going to walk 385 yards up and play a 190 par 5?

Calamatity is a fine hole as you say because a shorter tee can be located where the carry can be made and the lower speed player can experience the same type of thrill.

HHA is a 95 yard carry according to Ran and that assumes an absolutely perfect layup and that isn't going to happen so the carry is effectively 10-15 yards more than the actual carry.

[Ally Mcintosh]

I like the idea of throwing in a big fairway cross bunker now and again but a Hell's Half Acre feature is certainly near the bottom of my favourite's list, even more so if the wings and rest of the site isn't native, sandy vegetation and scrub.

[Sean_A]

I am not saying the HHAs should be built, but if found and used, I am having a hard time seeing the issue.  Sometimes, the greater percentage of golfers has to be ignored if greatness is staring the archie in the face.  This is why forward tees should exist.  Think of Calamity Corner.  It would be a calamity if an archie decided that hole shouldn't be included because some people can't make the carry.  There are many examples of fine holes of this nature.  Again, sometimes it makes sense to make weaker players walk forward to a shorter tee.  All holes can't be all things to all golfers.

Ciao

Sean,

How would a shorter tee help a lower clubhead speed player on HHA?
The hazard exists from the 285 mark to the 380 mark.(according to Ran review on this site)
There are many regular golfers who do not carry the ball 95 yards (which =s about 125-145 total yards)
Are you going to walk 385 yards up and play a 190 par 5?

Calamatity is a fine hole as you say because a shorter tee can be located where the carry can be made and the lower speed player can experience the same type of thrill.

HHA is a 95 yard carry according to Ran and that assumes an absolutely perfect layup and that isn't going to happen so the carry is effectively 10-15 yards more than the actual carry.



Jeff

Yes, I know what you mean.  A carry shot in the fairway doesn't allow alternatives for poor golfers.  HHAs are on the extreme end of penal architecture, but I still think there may be a place for this sort of feature if the area isn't too rough.  It wouldn't be my favourite feature and in general I think bold carries are better from the tee, but I would be very hesitant to eliminate the idea of the odd very penal fairway shot because a large percentage of golfers will have to rely on luck to cope with it.  Of course, I think the idea is better if an avenue exists to skirt the trouble, but sometimes archies don't have that luxury of width.  As I say, all courses can't be all things to all people.  

Ciao

[Keith Phillips]

Bayonne has an interesting modern version on the par 5 4th hole - HHA comes into play on the 2nd shot and then another large bunker complex guards the front/front left of the green - not a long hole, and can be comfortably played my most in three shots, but a poor 2nd or 3rd will end up in the bunker complexes.  I think it's well done and adds to the variety of the course - despite the features, the biggest issue on this hole is OB along the entire left side.

[John McCarthy]

I would point out that the fridge full of Half Acre Brewery's Daisy Cutter makes the stupid wait at my barber shop worth it.

Yeah, off topic....

[Jeff_Brauer]

http://i178.photobucket.com/albums/w252/pwarms/pcc14-692x432_zpsae57d66f.jpg

Not sure how to post photos, but this is the link from the linked thread to Mark Salzman's recent thread (post 17 here) and photos shown by Powell Arms in his post no. 10 there, of the Tillinghast Wissahickon course.  It perfectly illustrates the strategic nature of the hole on the left of the HHA.  There is a carry, but you accomplish something better than if you don't. On the HHA hole, you must carry something just to advance the ball.  Further, the worse the shot you hit off the tee, the more impossible the second.  If you top a tee shot, that distance loss is enough punishment (Hard to reach in regulation) without the forced penalty of a long sand shot.

IMHO, the only reason for the HHA is for something different, but conceptually, its a weak feature that doesn't promote strategy and isn't hard for decent players, but does punish the hack far too disproportionally.

Some other interesting thoughts, but I wonder if Tillie cut back the sand amount in this one vs. a naturally sandy PV after seeing how hard it is, because a sandy waste wouldn't fit a Parkland course, or just because the client couldn't afford a half acre of bunker sand shipped in from somewhere.  My guess its a bit of all three, with the last being the biggest factor and the first being the smallest.

[Jason Thurman]

How would a shorter tee help a lower clubhead speed player on HHA?
The hazard exists from the 285 mark to the 380 mark.(according to Ran review on this site)
There are many regular golfers who do not carry the ball 95 yards (which =s about 125-145 total yards)

Pine Valley's Hell's Half Acre is 95 yards long. I don't think Tillinghast took a tape measure with him and measured the ones he created to the same size...

There are plenty of "Hell's Half Acre template" hazards that require a shorter carry. Pine Valley was specifically designed to be a very difficult course that made few attempts to coddle weak players, thus the severe carry. If a course built for the average market features a 50 or 60 yard Hell's Half Acre hazard in the right spot, I think that's perfectly reasonable. There will always be a small percentage of players who can't make the carry, but in order to have truly interesting and compelling holes, an architect has to accept a certain tradeoff in playability in order to foster challenge. Every great course has to decide to choose a level of feebleness beyond which it won't accommodate.

[Josh Bills]

Keith Phillips, here is my photo of that HHA at Bayonne from April of 2007, still growing in back then.  I don't think it is very deep, but it does go across the entire fairway.  In addition the uphill nature of the HHA to a mostly blind landing area, makes that feature a great one on that course.    

View from fairway


View from Rough mounds on the right

[Ally Mcintosh]

I like the idea of throwing in a big fairway cross bunker now and again but a Hell's Half Acre feature is certainly near the bottom of my favourite's list, even more so if the wings and rest of the site isn't native, sandy vegetation and scrub.

That said, When I played Boston GC, the Par-5 15th was perhaps my favourite hole and it had this feature which added to the aesthetic for sure. The hole is made great by the second shot landing area and green site though.

[Mark_Fine]

Jason,
Your aerial version of Lehigh’s #11 is correct!  You were just expecting to see “sand” in the area of “Hells’ Half Acre”.  At Lehigh, the sand is replaced by a steeply sloped hill that is cut at rough height.  Trust me, it is a great “hazard” and serves the purpose well.  It also allows for a recovery shot which is nice as well.  The beauty of architectural design concepts is that the same concept can be articulated (presented) many different ways! 

The same goes for the 17th hole at Cherry Hills. That hole was designed by Flynn to model the design concept of #7 at Pine Valley.  At Cherry Hills, Flynn “softened” his version here of the “Hell’s Half Acre” feature.  And at the green he surrounded it with a water hazard rather than sand as it is at Pine Valley.  Still the same design concept holds at both holes - you need to cross a hazard in the fairway and you need to cross a hazard that surrounds the green. 

To Tom Doak, if you look at our MP version for Cherry Hills for the #17 hole, we had the fairway cross bunkers shifted slightly to the right so there was some fairway all along the left (If I wasn’t traveling I would post the plan).  A higher handicap golfer (any golfer for that matter) could actually play along the left side of the cross bunkers with a putter if they wanted to and avoid the hazards.  We also wanted the entire hole corridor to be wider (we wanted to remove both Cottonwoods on the right to open up that area and allow more width to place the bunkering and mounds).  If the membership wants to soften this hazard  , maybe you should propose this approach?  I would hate to see them revert to what was there before    At least the trees were removed from the around the island!!

The Hell’s Half Acre design concept is used MANY MANY places on MANY MANY holes.  I could literally list hundreds (Carl cites just one example where Tom Doak used a cross hazard that requires a long forced carry at Riverwalk on the 18th hole).  Doak used one like that at the 18th at Stonewall New as well. 

The secret is not to use the same design concepts over and over again on the same golf course.  If for example, every hole at Cypress Point was like the #16 hole there or even the #15 hole (both require forced carries of more than 75 yards to get to the green), the course would be considered terrible by most and totally unfair (I actually hate the word unfair).  I would instead just call it poorly designed as there is no such thing as fair or unfair in golf. 

By the way, the early version of Pine Valley’s Hell’s Half Acre was mostly sand.  They have started to clear out some of the clutter that has grown up in it over the years (I would post a photo if I was at my office).  If you can't carry the acre at PV, you just played your next shot out of the sand, so be it, it’s golf and there is often sand on golf courses! 

Too many people are hung up on “fairness” and that is sad.  The best golf architecture comment anyone ever gave to me was from Gil Hanse.  When I was working with Forrest on our book Bunkers, Pits & Other Hazards, Gil told me, “Mark if you can accomplish one thing with your book, I would like to see the word “fair” fall out of use in association with hazards”!

If you read the interview we did with Gil for our book, his thoughts on hazards are quite interesting.  He loves centerline hazards of which Hell’s Half Acre certainly qualifies 

Mark

[Mark Bourgeois]

The Bayonne HHA calls to mind that on the 5th at Royal New Kent. To answer the thread title question: the HHA at RNK definitely works.

[Jason Topp]

Jason,
Your aerial version of Lehigh’s #11 is correct!  You were just expecting to see “sand” in the area of “Hells’ Half Acre”.  At Lehigh, the sand is replaced by a steeply sloped hill that is cut at rough height.  Trust me, it is a great “hazard” and serves the purpose well.  It also allows for a recovery shot which is nice as well.  The beauty of architectural design concepts is that the same concept can be articulated (presented) many different ways! 

The same goes for the 17th hole at Cherry Hills. That hole was designed by Flynn to model the design concept of #7 at Pine Valley.  At Cherry Hills, Flynn “softened” his version here of the “Hell’s Half Acre” feature.  And at the green he surrounded it with a water hazard rather than sand as it is at Pine Valley.  Still the same design concept holds at both holes - you need to cross a hazard in the fairway and you need to cross a hazard that surrounds the green. 

To Tom Doak, if you look at our MP version for Cherry Hills for the #17 hole, we had the fairway cross bunkers shifted slightly to the right so there was some fairway all along the left (If I wasn’t traveling I would post the plan).  A higher handicap golfer (any golfer for that matter) could actually play along the left side of the cross bunkers with a putter if they wanted to and avoid the hazards.  We also wanted the entire hole corridor to be wider (we wanted to remove both Cottonwoods on the right to open up that area and allow more width to place the bunkering and mounds).  If the membership wants to soften this hazard  , maybe you should propose this approach?  I would hate to see them revert to what was there before    At least the trees were removed from the around the island!!

The Hell’s Half Acre design concept is used MANY MANY places on MANY MANY holes.  I could literally list hundreds (Carl cites just one example where Tom Doak used a cross hazard that requires a long forced carry at Riverwalk on the 18th hole).  Doak used one like that at the 18th at Stonewall New as well. 

The secret is not to use the same design concepts over and over again on the same golf course.  If for example, every hole at Cypress Point was like the #16 hole there or even the #15 hole (both require forced carries of more than 75 yards to get to the green), the course would be considered terrible by most and totally unfair (I actually hate the word unfair).  I would instead just call it poorly designed as there is no such thing as fair or unfair in golf. 

By the way, the early version of Pine Valley’s Hell’s Half Acre was mostly sand.  They have started to clear out some of the clutter that has grown up in it over the years (I would post a photo if I was at my office).  If you can't carry the acre at PV, you just played your next shot out of the sand, so be it, it’s golf and there is often sand on golf courses! 

Too many people are hung up on “fairness” and that is sad.  The best golf architecture comment anyone ever gave to me was from Gil Hanse.  When I was working with Forrest on our book Bunkers, Pits & Other Hazards, Gil told me, “Mark if you can accomplish one thing with your book, I would like to see the word “fair” fall out of use in association with hazards”!

If you read the interview we did with Gil for our book, his thoughts on hazards are quite interesting.  He loves centerline hazards of which Hell’s Half Acre certainly qualifies 

Mark

Thanks Mark:  I like both of your eaxmples because there are a number of options that prevent the HHA hazard from imposing a strong likelihood of an X.  The Cherry Hills version gives a big area in the middle that would be an option (although it would leave an extraordinarily difficult 3rd) and the Leghigh hole is short enough (and I assume downhill) so that, while the player would clearly want to get over the rough, there would be some hope if she fails to make the carry.  For the long hitter, it appears that reaching the hole in two is a real temptation.

I have always thought of the hazard in terms of a death carry - where a huge number becomes a possibility due to bunkers, scrub and other nasty things in the carry area.  To me it is not a question of fairness but rather whether the hazard presents interesting golf for most people that play the course.   A death carry that one has no chance of making or one can easily make does not seem that interesting to me.  Forcing people that cannot make the carry to venture among the wilds is similarly not that interesting.

Softening the hazard from the original is one way to make the hole more pleasurable for a higher percentage of rounds while maintaining the challenge if one wants to reach the green in regulation.     

[Mark_Fine]

When you boil it down, Hell's Half Acre is simply a design feature that requires a "forced carry" and that design concept is used zillions of times (to different extremes) throughout golf course design!  Again the secret is not to overuse any single concept on the same course. 

[Jeff_Brauer]

Mark,

Haven't seen your CH master plan in a while, but if you left a sliver of FW down one side, it is slightly better than a full forced carry.  

I think a forced (vs. optional) carry is especially not great when its a fairway wood in the golfers hand.  Par 3s are best - on the tee with an iron, and other tee shots (ball on tee with driver) are probably the most frequently used forced carries these days.

it does seem as if ESA's are forcing our hands to create more forced carries now than in the Golden Age.......

[Doug Wright]

A couple questions:

I'm not clear how #17 at Cherry Hills is (or was) a Hell's Half Acre Hole in the sense that Pine Valley's is. Yes there is a forced carry (3 in fact, 2 cross bunkers and a moat green) but do those really make it a "Hell's Half Acre Hole"? Seems to me a very different concept when there's grass in the 100+ yards vs. sand and other stuff as at Pine Valley. The demands and decision making of Cherry Hills #17 are in many respects better and more interesting than #7 at Pine Valley, where one has no choice but to hit it over the hazard.


Mark Fine, how did #17 "work well" in the BMW Championship?  

[Chris Roselle]

By the way, the early version of Pine Valley’s Hell’s Half Acre was mostly sand.  They have started to clear out some of the clutter that has grown up in it over the years (I would post a photo if I was at my office).  If you can't carry the acre at PV, you just played your next shot out of the sand, so be it, it’s golf and there is often sand on golf courses! 

Mark

I believe this is what HHA used to look like back in the day and this is far less intimidating compared to what one faces today IMO.

[Ed Brzezowski]

Lord I hope so since we are looking at restoring/adding the Hells Half Acre Flynn put in and Tillie took out.

Does it work as a part of modern architecture, I think so.

Ed:  I view restoration as a slightly different question but I am interested in whether you think restoring the feature will make for a more interesting golf hole.  If so, why?

Fair question Jason,

I think it will be better because it puts thinking back into the golf hole that is not there now. It also will introduce a blind landing area for those who wish to fly it over the bunkers. Personally I like the idea but fully understand I may be in the minority.

It takes away that there really is no punishment for a poorly hit shot. If you thin one or top it you now have no real consequence other than a longer third shot. Add in the crossing hazard and now there are real consequences to a mis hit shot.

[Ed Brzezowski]

Eddie B. - Which course?

Concord   a ring around the collar club outside of Philly. One of GCAs ex members has the original plans and wow is it neat looking.

ed

[Mark_Fine]

Jeff,
My Master Plan for Cherry Hills (at least the rendering for #17) is posted on this site somewhere.  A copy is also in my Bunkers, Pits, & Other Hazards book.  Also in the book is a copy of Flynn’s original design plans for the hole as well as an aerial of what he actually built.  As I said, in our MP plan, we allowed some room on the left to create an option of no forced carry. 

Doug,
Flynn patterned #17 at Cherry Hills very much after #7 at Pine Valley all the way from tee to green.  If you saw side by side aerials of the two holes (which I have posted on this site and is also in my book) you would see an eerie comparison.  There are two other holes at Cherry Hills that were patterned after Pine Valley as well. 

Chris,
Great photo but that actually looks scarier than what is there today.   

[Chris Roselle]

Chris,
Great photo but that actually looks scarier than what is there today.   

Mark I guess the reason it looks scarier to me today is because of the foliage and vegetation that has encroached on both the left and the right sides of the entire length of the hole but I think we can both agree that you don't want to be in there in either 1930 or 2014.

[Mark McKeever]

An interesting point Chris.

I think the depth of the HHA sand pits in 1930 look far worse.  Something that I would have to bring a wedge in with me.  Today I think its more likely to have a longer advancing shot if you get a good swing without any brush in the way.

It's almost as if the challenge of the PV HHA has shifted.

Mark

[archie_struthers]

 

The "half acre"at PVGC is  closer to an acre , approximately 100 yards by 50 yards.  It's still a a great feature today with new equipment and bigger people.lol. It doesn't work everywhere , but thats ok too. Not all golf course are championship courses , despite their length.


It's a great feature , but doesn't need to be replicated too,often . Most clubs don't need features that can slow play and  discourage players. Pine Valley Is a unique place that works on many levels as a championship course , but wouldn't be my choice for daily play.  I love it as many know but there are no carts , no women , and it takes no prisoners .

[Doug Wright]

Doug,
Flynn patterned #17 at Cherry Hills very much after #7 at Pine Valley all the way from tee to green.  If you saw side by side aerials of the two holes (which I have posted on this site and is also in my book) you would see an eerie comparison.  There are two other holes at Cherry Hills that were patterned after Pine Valley as well. 

Thanks Mark I will look at it in your book, though I don't get it unless Flynn planned something ugly and not green grass between the cross bunkers.

Also, you didn't answer this question:  how did #17 "work well" in the BMW Championship? 

 

[Jason Topp]

I found Mark's Cherry Hills drawing from a 2012 thread.  A very cool history of the hole although I agree with Doug that this is a softened version from the original and, even then, someone must not have liked the original at some point.

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