[Jason Topp]

I know Tillie built a number of par fives with a hell's half acre type bunker complex similar number 7 at Pine Valley.  I(t seems as though many of those designs were softened over the years - presumably due to complaints from shorter hitting members.

Does such an approach work in a modern design on a private golf course?  I can see some novelty and thrill associated with such a hole but any sort of substantial carry is going to kill short hitters or high handicaps.  Also, unless the complex is placed at precisely the right distance, I see it more as a penal distraction than an interesting strategic hazard.

Should such a design be included in a modern golf course?  

[Ed Brzezowski]

Lord I hope so since we are looking at restoring/adding the Hells Half Acre Flynn put in and Tillie took out.

Does it work as a part of modern architecture, I think so.

[Jason Topp]

Lord I hope so since we are looking at restoring/adding the Hells Half Acre Flynn put in and Tillie took out.

Does it work as a part of modern architecture, I think so.

Ed:  I view restoration as a slightly different question but I am interested in whether you think restoring the feature will make for a more interesting golf hole.  If so, why?

[Thomas Dai]

Pro-rata in comparison to yee olde days when such hazards were built and given the distance the modern ball carries after being hit by a modern club swung by a 2014 size person, how many yards wider would an equivalent hazard need to be these days? And should such a hazard be equally increased pro-rata in depth or face height?
Atb

[Jeff_Brauer]

Years ago Tommy Naccarato had a similar thread.  At the time, I said not. Not even sure it worked back then in the days of lesser carry.  Yes, scary. But the angled fairway with a safe way around still makes more sense to me than any sort of forced carry.

That is more true, especially if not natural (i.e., Cypress 16, which does have a safer way) but specifically built.  I sure wouldn't go out of my way to build an artificial one, but might accept it on a sandy site where it occurred naturally.

I think even Tillie called it one of his pet ideas, implying he knew it was out of the norm (well, he had to, I guess)  Yeah, he is famous, yeah he is great, but it doesn't mean that every pet idea he had was great.  Maybe worth restoring, but that is about it.

[Mark Bourgeois]

I know Tillie built a number of par fives with a hell's half acre type bunker complex similar number 7 at Pine Valley.  I(t seems as though many of those designs were softened over the years - presumably due to complaints from shorter hitting members.

Does such an approach work in a modern design on a private golf course?  I can see some novelty and thrill associated with such a hole but any sort of substantial carry is going to kill short hitters or high handicaps.  Also, unless the complex is placed at precisely the right distance, I see it more as a penal distraction than an interesting strategic hazard.

Should such a design be included in a modern golf course?  

By the #s:
Pine Valley HHA in 1930 ≈ 1.5 acres
Pine Valley HHA in 2011 ≈ 1 acre

The way they apparently shrunk it actually may have made it harder: it appears to have been narrowed (but not shortened) via tree encroachment.

[Ronald Montesano]

Eddie B. - Which course?

[Mark_Fine]

Of course it works and works well.  It was in our MP plan and in Doak's MP plan for Cherry Hills (it was Flynn's original design concept for Cherry Hills taken from #7 at Pine Valley).  Tom's team restored it and it worked well in the BMW Championship!  We have a "Hell's Half Acre" concept at my home club (Lehigh CC), an old Flynn design and it is my (and many others) favorite hole on the golf course. 

[Jason Topp]

Of course it works and works well.  It was in our MP plan and in Doak's MP plan for Cherry Hills (it was Flynn's original design concept for Cherry Hills taken from #7 at Pine Valley).  Tom's team restored it and it worked well in the BMW Championship!  We have a "Hell's Half Acre" concept at my home club (Lehigh CC), an old Flynn design and it is my (and many others) favorite hole on the golf course. 

Mark:  How do high handicaps deal with it?  Does it present difficulty for better players?  It seems to me that it would be very difficult to create such a hazard for a wide ranging membership that can be negotiated by high handicaps while still forcing the low handicap player to worry about it.

[Jason Topp]

Of course it works and works well.  It was in our MP plan and in Doak's MP plan for Cherry Hills (it was Flynn's original design concept for Cherry Hills taken from #7 at Pine Valley).  Tom's team restored it and it worked well in the BMW Championship!  We have a "Hell's Half Acre" concept at my home club (Lehigh CC), an old Flynn design and it is my (and many others) favorite hole on the golf course. 

This aerial tour of Lehigh must be out of date - 11?  http://course.bluegolf.com/bluegolf/course/course/lehighcc/aerial.htm#

The Cherry Hills complex is a lot more player friendly than the Pine Valley version - http://course.bluegolf.com/bluegolf/course/course/cherryhillscc/aerial.htm#

[Jason Thurman]

The Hell's Half Acre is one of my favorite hazard types. I think they work great on the second shot of par 5s that are unreachable for most or that have recoverable trouble surrounding the driving zone.

My old home course has a par 5 with a water hazard of a Hell's Half Acre size in the traditional Hell's Half Acre location. If you hit a good drive, the second shot across the hazard is a simple one. Hit your drive into the rough though, or the old fairway bunker on the hole, and you're faced with a choice of laying up for a 200+ yard 3rd shot or risking disaster to try and set up a wedge approach. It's one of the most exciting shots on the course. I also love the more traditional Hell's Half Acre hazards at places like Dormie Club's 17th.

It's frustrating that so many great architectural features only really are enjoyable when you hit the ball as intended - a Redan is a big letdown when you come over the top and pull one left of the green and miss the chance to use the architecture. As someone well capable of puking all over myself when I play a great hole, I appreciate that the Hell's Half Acre is most in play and most exciting for a player who hits a crappy tee shot and leaves himself with an exciting decision as a result.

[Tom_Doak]

Of course it works and works well.  It was in our MP plan and in Doak's MP plan for Cherry Hills (it was Flynn's original design concept for Cherry Hills taken from #7 at Pine Valley).  Tom's team restored it and it worked well in the BMW Championship!  We have a "Hell's Half Acre" concept at my home club (Lehigh CC), an old Flynn design and it is my (and many others) favorite hole on the golf course.  

FYI, the membership has asked to soften that feature.

Just putting in a cross bunker on a par-5 hole is hard enough to justify nowadays.  The ones on the 17th at Streamsong (Blue) attracted a lot of attention and praise, I think just because you so seldom see such features anymore.  But building a feature that requires 75 yards of carry just kills the average woman golfer.  Pine Valley doesn't have to care about that, but most clubs do!

[jeffwarne]

Can someone tell me how HHA works for a lower speed player who carries it 60-100 yards?(a real and relevant part of golf's population)
What strategy exactly are they employing?

If Rees designed one he'd be crucified

[Mark Bourgeois]

Jeff,

So I've been doing a little math. Half an acre is about 50 yards by 50 yards. Make it a square HHA and that's your problem done and dusted. I wonder how many HHAs are really an acre or more. There could be a nice run here for Lionel Hutz once he's done suing the marketers of "The Neverending Story."

[jeffwarne]

Jeff,

So I've been doing a little math. Half an acre is about 50 yards by 50 yards. Make it a square HHA and that's your problem done and dusted.."

I'm taking the over on that....

[Mark Bourgeois]

I'm expecting at least partial credit for showing my work:

1) 50 yards * 50 yards = 2,500 square yards

2) 1/2 acre = 2,420 square yards (according to here: http://www.asknumbers.com/acre-to-square-yard.aspx )

3) or ~ 49 yards by 49 yards

4) I win! YASSSSSSSS!!!!!

[jeffwarne]

I'm expecting at least partial credit for showing my work:

1) 50 yards * 50 yards = 2,500 square yards

2) 1/2 acre = 2,420 square yards (according to here: http://www.asknumbers.com/acre-to-square-yard.aspx )

3) or ~ 49 yards by 49 yards

4) I win! YASSSSSSSS!!!!!

At least you're showing your work.
I'm going off a round I played there in 1992!

[Mark Saltzman]

A related thread: http://www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,55674.0/html

[Sean_A]

I am not saying the HHAs should be built, but if found and used, I am having a hard time seeing the issue.  Sometimes, the greater percentage of golfers has to be ignored if greatness is staring the archie in the face.  This is why forward tees should exist.  Think of Calamity Corner.  It would be a calamity if an archie decided that hole shouldn't be included because some people can't make the carry.  There are many examples of fine holes of this nature.  Again, sometimes it makes sense to make weaker players walk forward to a shorter tee.  All holes can't be all things to all golfers.

Ciao

[Jim_Kennedy]

All (I believe) of the aerials in the thread that Mark Saltzman posted (reply #17) showing  HHAs have 17 other holes without any bunkers in their fairways. Seems like a waste to concentrate so many bunkers in one place if you aren't going to move more of the others on a course inward instead of having them all on the edges.

I don't mind an HHA, although I like this better
 
 

[Mark Bourgeois]

Thanks for the link, Mark. Interestingly a number of the aerials seem to show true half-acre HHAs. I wonder if Tilly's HHA sizes grew over time.

Here's another, by Tillinghast and Lees, at Hempstead:



According to the most-recent aerial on Google Maps, it is NLE, a data point in support perhaps of the argument members don't like HHAs.

[Jim_Kennedy]

Thanks for the link, Mark. Interestingly a number of the aerials seem to show true half-acre HHAs. I wonder if Tilly's HHA sizes grew over time.

Here's another, by Tillinghast and Lees, at Hempstead:

According to the most-recent aerial on Google Maps, it is NLE, a data point in support perhaps of the argument members don't like HHAs.

Is your aerial of an earlier course that moved to a new location - Tilly and Lees Hempstead seems to be going strong - but I didn't notice a HHA - so you meant the hole itself, not the complete course?

http://www.hempsteadcountryclub.com/Default.aspx?p=DynamicModule&pageid=264114&ssid=129538&vnf=1

[Bill_McBride]

Can someone tell me how HHA works for a lower speed player who carries it 60-100 yards?(a real and relevant part of golf's population)
What strategy exactly are they employing?

If Rees designed one he'd be crucified

I don't mind cross bunkers but think they are much more playable by all on a diagonal.  That way you can make the crossing carry when you want to, not when you have to. 

[Mark Bourgeois]

Thanks for the link, Mark. Interestingly a number of the aerials seem to show true half-acre HHAs. I wonder if Tilly's HHA sizes grew over time.

Here's another, by Tillinghast and Lees, at Hempstead:

According to the most-recent aerial on Google Maps, it is NLE, a data point in support perhaps of the argument members don't like HHAs.

Is your aerial of an earlier course that moved to a new location - Tilly and Lees Hempstead seems to be going strong - but I didn't notice a HHA - so you meant the hole itself, not the complete course?

http://www.hempsteadcountryclub.com/Default.aspx?p=DynamicModule&pageid=264114&ssid=129538&vnf=1

Jim, yes -- the feature, not the hole or the course.

[Steve_ Shaffer]

Stephen Kay's par5 HHA @ Blue Heron Pines, Galloway, NJ (1993)

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