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David_Tepper

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John Huggan Reviews The Confidential Guide
« on: December 14, 2014, 11:09:05 AM »

Brian_Ewen

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Re: John Huggan Reviews The Confidential Guide
« Reply #1 on: December 14, 2014, 04:57:13 PM »
 ;D

Paul Gray

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Re: John Huggan Reviews The Confidential Guide
« Reply #2 on: December 14, 2014, 05:10:53 PM »
Very well written and pleasantly lacking in unnecessary tact.
In the places where golf cuts through pretension and elitism, it thrives and will continue to thrive because the simple virtues of the game and its attendant culture are allowed to be most apparent. - Tim Gavrich

Rob Marshall

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Re: John Huggan Reviews The Confidential Guide
« Reply #3 on: December 14, 2014, 05:41:11 PM »
Very well written and pleasantly lacking in unnecessary tact.

"The review of the Greg Norman-designed Doonbeg in County Clare, Ireland concludes as follows: “In the end, it’s a beautiful place and full of thrills, but like the rest of Norman’s career, a bit haunted by the thought of what might have been.” Ouch"

Ouch is right!
If life gives you limes, make margaritas.” Jimmy Buffett

Mark Pavy

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Re: John Huggan Reviews The Confidential Guide
« Reply #4 on: December 14, 2014, 06:07:38 PM »

"The review of the Greg Norman-designed Doonbeg in County Clare, Ireland concludes as follows: “In the end, it’s a beautiful place and full of thrills, but like the rest of Norman’s career, a bit haunted by the thought of what might have been.” Ouch"

Ouch is right!

Is that really necessary in a golf course review book?








Paul Gray

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Re: John Huggan Reviews The Confidential Guide
« Reply #5 on: December 14, 2014, 06:11:53 PM »

"The review of the Greg Norman-designed Doonbeg in County Clare, Ireland concludes as follows: “In the end, it’s a beautiful place and full of thrills, but like the rest of Norman’s career, a bit haunted by the thought of what might have been.” Ouch"

Ouch is right!

Is that really necessary in a golf course review book?









Perhaps not but I'm not sure you'd be complaining about similar comments about an English cricketer.  ;D
In the places where golf cuts through pretension and elitism, it thrives and will continue to thrive because the simple virtues of the game and its attendant culture are allowed to be most apparent. - Tim Gavrich

Terry Lavin

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Re: John Huggan Reviews The Confidential Guide
« Reply #6 on: December 14, 2014, 06:11:54 PM »
Nice of him to misspell Ran's last name.
Nobody ever went broke underestimating the intelligence of the American people.  H.L. Mencken

Mark Pavy

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Re: John Huggan Reviews The Confidential Guide
« Reply #7 on: December 14, 2014, 06:32:05 PM »
Perhaps not but I'm not sure you'd be complaining about similar comments about an English cricketer.  ;D

I can only think you're referring to Gough, completely different.

Doak's is a personal attack on a rival architect in reference to a golf course, published in a book!


Paul Gray

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Re: John Huggan Reviews The Confidential Guide
« Reply #8 on: December 14, 2014, 07:19:38 PM »
Perhaps not but I'm not sure you'd be complaining about similar comments about an English cricketer.  ;D

I can only think you're referring to Gough, completely different.

Doak's is a personal attack on a rival architect in reference to a golf course, published in a book!



No, I was just messing and didn't mean to imply any defence of Darren Gough's insensitive comments. I was as unimpressed by that as you.

Please accept my apology for any offence caused.
In the places where golf cuts through pretension and elitism, it thrives and will continue to thrive because the simple virtues of the game and its attendant culture are allowed to be most apparent. - Tim Gavrich

Don Mahaffey

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Re: John Huggan Reviews The Confidential Guide
« Reply #9 on: December 14, 2014, 08:19:45 PM »
I liked the article.

Re Norman and Doak being "rival architects". I don't see it.

Is there the slightest chance that an owner would interview both for a project? Maybe so, but there work is so different in almost all ways I don't see how they are rivals.

John Kavanaugh

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Re: John Huggan Reviews The Confidential Guide
« Reply #10 on: December 14, 2014, 09:04:04 PM »
Why is this comment by Chubbychandler getting far more likes than dislikes?

"Doak is not as good as the hype with which he tries to surround himself.
His trademark huge, undulating greens with savage drop-offs are certainly not everyone's cup of tea.
Given the incredible blank canvas he was given at the Renaissance club, I don't rate what he did with it very highly at all.
Only one hole going towards the Forth, many unmemorable par 4's, very reachable par 5's and five mundane par 3's......
Add to that the many hundreds (or is it thousands) of trees which have been hacked down on the property. Why? He is supposed to be a 'minimalist' architect, who is against removing that which nature provided.... Laughable..
Try practising what you preach, Mr Doak.."

Tim_Weiman

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Re: John Huggan Reviews The Confidential Guide
« Reply #11 on: December 14, 2014, 11:01:17 PM »
Why is this comment by Chubbychandler getting far more likes than dislikes?

"Doak is not as good as the hype with which he tries to surround himself.
His trademark huge, undulating greens with savage drop-offs are certainly not everyone's cup of tea.
Given the incredible blank canvas he was given at the Renaissance club, I don't rate what he did with it very highly at all.
Only one hole going towards the Forth, many unmemorable par 4's, very reachable par 5's and five mundane par 3's......
Add to that the many hundreds (or is it thousands) of trees which have been hacked down on the property. Why? He is supposed to be a 'minimalist' architect, who is against removing that which nature provided.... Laughable..
Try practising what you preach, Mr Doak.."

JK:

What stands out for me is that Chubby appears to be doing a review of the Renaissance Club golf course rather than the Confidential Guide itself, which obviously is the actual subject of the article/review.

I don't know why he would do that.

Also, Chubby appears to present reachable par 5s as something negative but doesn't explain why.
Tim Weiman

Chris Kane

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Re: John Huggan Reviews The Confidential Guide
« Reply #12 on: December 15, 2014, 01:46:16 AM »
I liked the article.

Re Norman and Doak being "rival architects". I don't see it.

Is there the slightest chance that an owner would interview both for a project? Maybe so, but there work is so different in almost all ways I don't see how they are rivals.
They already have - at least twice.

Tony_Muldoon

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Re: John Huggan Reviews The Confidential Guide
« Reply #13 on: December 15, 2014, 01:55:47 AM »
Why is this comment by Chubbychandler getting far more likes than dislikes?

"Doak is not as good as the hype with which he tries to surround himself.
His trademark huge, undulating greens with savage drop-offs are certainly not everyone's cup of tea.
Given the incredible blank canvas he was given at the Renaissance club, I don't rate what he did with it very highly at all.
Only one hole going towards the Forth, many unmemorable par 4's, very reachable par 5's and five mundane par 3's......
Add to that the many hundreds (or is it thousands) of trees which have been hacked down on the property. Why? He is supposed to be a 'minimalist' architect, who is against removing that which nature provided.... Laughable..
Try practising what you preach, Mr Doak.."

Don't you recognise a contrarian when you see one?

AS the Renaisance Club is on the American model, there arn't that many of Huggan's readers who will have played it. Go figure.
Let's make GCA grate again!

Jim Nugent

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Re: John Huggan Reviews The Confidential Guide
« Reply #14 on: December 15, 2014, 02:49:12 AM »

Doak's is a personal attack on a rival architect in reference to a golf course, published in a book!


Or maybe it's Doak's honest appraisal of a course many people abhor. 

What would you have him do with a course he believes merits a zero? 

Tom_Doak

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Re: John Huggan Reviews The Confidential Guide
« Reply #15 on: December 15, 2014, 06:35:11 AM »
I liked the article.

Re Norman and Doak being "rival architects". I don't see it.

Is there the slightest chance that an owner would interview both for a project? Maybe so, but there work is so different in almost all ways I don't see how they are rivals.
They already have - at least twice.

Chris:

Three times, actually ... for The National and for another new project in Australia, and for the Rio 2016 project.  Even so, I highly doubt Greg thinks of me as a rival architect, and I certainly don't think of him as one.  Whatever Greg does think [if he thinks of me at all!], I'm fairly certain he doesn't feel he needs Mark Pavy to defend him. 

However, Don's point doesn't really matter to this discussion.  The point is, either I'm allowed to print my opinions of other people's courses, or I'm not ... whether the other architect is dead or alive, or a rival or not.  It wouldn't make any sense that I was only allowed to print my honest opinions of SOME courses and was obliged to fudge others; if that was the rule it would be dishonest to write at all.

There are clearly some people like Mark who feel I shouldn't be writing at all.  I understood that when I embarked on the project again.  I just don't like it when people who don't know me at all assign motivations to my words that just aren't true.  My review of Doonbeg was not a personal "attack" on Greg Norman.

Tom_Doak

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Re: John Huggan Reviews The Confidential Guide
« Reply #16 on: December 15, 2014, 06:36:49 AM »
Why is this comment by Chubbychandler getting far more likes than dislikes?


Because it's a lot easier to "like" or "dislike" something or someone anonymously, than it is to put your name next to it in print.

You frequently make the very same point.

Mark Pearce

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Re: John Huggan Reviews The Confidential Guide
« Reply #17 on: December 15, 2014, 06:55:05 AM »
Do we think that's really THE Chubby Chandler?  I have to say I somewhat doubt it.
In June I will be riding the first three stages of this year's Tour de France route for charity.  630km (394 miles) in three days, with 7800m (25,600 feet) of climbing for the William Wates Memorial Trust (https://rideleloop.org/the-charity/) which supports underprivileged young people.

Mark Pavy

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Re: John Huggan Reviews The Confidential Guide
« Reply #18 on: December 15, 2014, 08:17:47 AM »
Tom,

I enjoy some of your writing, but, as you do understand already, there are problems associated with voicing your opinion..... you open yourself up for critique as an author and authority on the subject. Such is life.

BCrosby

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Re: John Huggan Reviews The Confidential Guide
« Reply #19 on: December 15, 2014, 09:13:31 AM »
The point of the original CG and the updated CG was/is to express honest opinions about golf architecture and architects. That was something new to the literature when the first CG came out. I see it still bothers people.

I take that as a sign that the new CG is off to a good start. Snarky has its place.

Bob     

Paul Gray

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Re: John Huggan Reviews The Confidential Guide
« Reply #20 on: December 15, 2014, 09:26:13 AM »
The point of the original CG and the updated CG was/is to express honest opinions about golf architecture and architects. That was something new to the literature when the first CG came out. I see it still bothers people.

I take that as a sign that the new CG is off to a good start. Snarky has its place.

Bob     

Absolutely. I'd be very disappointed if Tom et al started to curtail criticism just to avoid upsetting certain golf insiders.
In the places where golf cuts through pretension and elitism, it thrives and will continue to thrive because the simple virtues of the game and its attendant culture are allowed to be most apparent. - Tim Gavrich

Jeff_Brauer

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Re: John Huggan Reviews The Confidential Guide
« Reply #21 on: December 15, 2014, 10:53:22 AM »
I can see the point of calling that passage as a personal attack on Norman.  I don't know Norman, but the legendary tour pros I do know would probably cringe more at a mention of their playing failures than of their failed marriages.  (Sort of the tour pro version of "you can criticize my wife, but never my golf club" sort of thing.

I think I have heard TD say its all about the golf and golf courses, and not about the architect, per se.  After all, it is possible for architects with a wide body of work to have some courses you like, and others you don't.  So, there is probably little need to generalize and/or get personal on any individual course review.

Anyway you cut it, it is borderline snark, and make of that what you will.  Obviously, part of the sales point of the book.
Jeff Brauer, ASGCA Director of Outreach

Bart Bradley

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Re: John Huggan Reviews The Confidential Guide
« Reply #22 on: December 15, 2014, 12:41:28 PM »
For goodness sakes, it's a book.  It is supposed to be entertaining and informative.  If the book didn't contain anything colorful, it wouldn't be nearly as much fun to read or to own. 

Bart

John Kavanaugh

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Re: John Huggan Reviews The Confidential Guide
« Reply #23 on: December 15, 2014, 12:47:17 PM »
Do we think that's really THE Chubby Chandler?  I have to say I somewhat doubt it.

I'm thinking it most likely is Chubby. I'm sure his clients didn't fare very well in the book. http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chubby_Chandler

Peter Pallotta

Re: John Huggan Reviews The Confidential Guide
« Reply #24 on: December 15, 2014, 01:26:01 PM »
This is fascinating, sociologically speaking. Since the Golden Age, the world's population has quadrupled, the golf industry has grown exponentially in size and scope, golf course architecture has become almost wholly professionalized and institutionalized, and communications/media is global and instant and all-pervasive in ways undreamed of even 20 years ago, let alone 90. And yet, for all this momentus change, it  seems that now -- just as in the 1920s -- there is still a "100 Club" the rules the roost. Then as now, there is just a very small group of top-flight architects and wealthy clients and prominent private club members and influential writers/critics and famous and accomplished golfers who all know eachother and work with eachother and support/criticize eachother and influence and/or compete against eachother. Then as now, these 100 people (at most, and mostly men) dominate and shape the prevailing ethos and attitudes of an entire game, for an entire generation of golfers. That this was true in the 1920s isn't so surprising to me, but that it should still be true today is, as I say, fascinating.  

Peter

Time for a quote, but apropos of nothing save that it came to mind (as in: I guess it's always the Roman Empire):

Why, man, he doth bestride the narrow world
Like a Colossus, and we petty men
Walk under his huge legs and peep about
To find ourselves dishonorable graves.
Men at some time are masters of their fates.
The fault, dear Brutus, is not in our stars
But in ourselves, that we are underlings.
Brutus and Caesar—what should be in that “Caesar”?
Why should that name be sounded more than yours?
Write them together, yours is as fair a name.
Sound them, it doth become the mouth as well.
Weigh them, it is as heavy. Conjure with 'em,
“Brutus” will start a spirit as soon as “Caesar.”
Now in the names of all the gods at once,
Upon what meat doth this our Caesar feed
That he is grown so great? Age, thou art shamed!
Rome, thou hast lost the breed of noble bloods!
When went there by an age, since the great flood,
But it was famed with more than with one man?
When could they say till now, that talked of Rome,
That her wide walks encompassed but one man?
Now is it Rome indeed, and room enough,
When there is in it but one only man.
Oh, you and I have heard our fathers say,
There was a Brutus once that would have brooked
Th' eternal devil to keep his state in Rome
As easily as a king.
« Last Edit: December 15, 2014, 01:48:26 PM by PPallotta »

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