[Chris DeToro]

Winged Foot West is a tremendous test of golf and a fabulous course with great, deep Tillinghast bunkers, a variety of long and short holes and greens with lots of tilt and slope. 

The one thing I cannot get over is just how difficult the 18th hole is.  I remember watching Phil Mickelson and Colin Montgomerie struggle to finish their rounds on this hole in the '06 US Open and just could not understand why as it's a terribly fair hole.  After seeing it, I understand.  First, it is a very long hole and the angle of the dogleg forces most players to hit driver to reach the corner.  Second, the front of the green is so narrow that there is really no good angle to approach.  Third, there is a steep false front and an unbelievable amount of slope on the front portion of that green making it difficult to keep the ball on the green, let alone get up and down. 

What an impressive golf hole--fair, fun and an incredible test for all players.  What other holes share this similar characteristic?

[Bill Brightly]

I love this hole but wonder how Tilly might have built the green if he knew how fast the ball might roll!

[Jon Cavalier]

Chris,

You saw me get owned by this hole, so you know I agree as to its difficulty. My approach was a foot short of the front pin and was on the green for at least 7-8 seconds before it came all the way back down and off. And that chip up from the bottom of the false front is absolutely terrifying.  Great hole, very tough.

As to your question, I'd suggest the following as a couple examples:
18 at Merion (East)
2 at Merion (East)
1 at Oakmont
8 at Piping Rock (the Road Hole - most versions of this template probably qualify)
4 at Myopia Hunt
2 at Wannamoisett

Here are a few photos:

[Patrick_Mucci]

Chris,

What contributes to the hole's difficulty is the rolling terrain the fairway sits on.

Most drives, on this dogleg left, will roll toward the right rough.

There's also that ridge that runs through the fairway in the DZ.

While I really like WFW, I think the fairways are far too narrow.

On # 18 they choke down to 18 yards with three of those yards being the sharp slope on the right, effectively presenting a fairway that's 15 yards in width.

I've been playing WFW since the mid to late 50's and it's always been a great test of golf, but, I have to wonder, for the members and the guests, would it be a more enjoyable challenge had it not conducted U.S. Opens ?

What's also remarkable is the quality of golf presented by 36 at Winged Foot, 18 at Quaker Ridge and 18 at Fenway.

Those have to be four of the most challenging courses in the country in such close proximity.

Jon,

nice photos.

The ridge runs right where the hole turns at the dogleg.

[Chris DeToro]

I totally agree with your comments on the West.  In many ways, I actually prefer WFE as it's a little more open with fewer trees yet just as demanding.  You make an interesting point about whether it would be more enjoyable if they didn't host US Opens.  I didn't find it overly long and the club maintains several blocks for people to play from plus there aren't any forced carries so I think it can still be enjoyable from tee to green.  However, if the green speeds and firmness were at US Open conditions, I could see it being much more taxing to play every day   

[Patrick_Mucci]

Chris,

One of my most enjoyable rounds at WFW was with Neil Regan and Tom Nieporte.

We played the course from the distance used in the 1959 U.S. Open.

Having played the course in 1959, from the Open tees, I can attest that at the time, it was beyond my ability and, I was a decent striker of the ball.

When I played it with Neil and Tom, more recently, it was manageable and FUN

I've also tried playing from the current tips and it's so far beyond my ability that it's not fun.

When I took my son to play it recently, his first comment, when standing on the first tee was, "wow, these fairways are really narrow."

As a par 70 it's beyond even the best golfers on the planet's abilities, so how is a 6, 12, 18 or 24 handicap going to fare ?

[JMEvensky]

There are certainly several golf clubs/courses whose members couldn't care less about 12 and 24 handicaps--WF being one. The others you know as well as I. There's a place for these clubs just as there's a place for 3-par courses for beginners.

Wasn't WF-W's original design order to AWT "build us a man's sized golf course"?

Seems like WF-W is sticking to its roots.

The problem is today's enormous disparity between man-sized and sized for the rest of us.But that ain't WF's lookout.Blame the clubs whose original members wanted something other than man-sized but got that kind of golf course through member misfeasance.

[Pat Burke]

Never played WFW in "tournament" conditions.  Played some pro-ams and a couple of casual rounds.
Greens were never in a silly speed, and I was amazed at the contours.  Really loved the place.

[Patrick_Mucci]

JME,

Seeing as how 12-24 handicaps make up the bulk of Winged Foot's membership, trust me, they care about them.

They do however, have a perspective and a context different than the great majority of clubs.

Ditto Oakmont and others.

[JMEvensky]

Never played WFW in "tournament" conditions.  Played some pro-ams and a couple of casual rounds.
Greens were never in a silly speed, and I was amazed at the contours.  Really loved the place.

Tough luck at q-school. Does that finish get you any status?

[Pat Burke]

Missed by 1 getting conditional status, which would have meant a handful of tournaments and no
pre qualifying to get in Monday qualifying.  (does that read as confusing as it looks? )

I basically get to go straight to Monday qualifiers without having to pre qualify on Thursdays before.
If i get in some events and make enough, I can get in the re shuffle before the last 5 events.

Basically I qualified for a gray area

[Ronald Montesano]

Guys,

While Phil butchered the hole, Monty had no problem with it, until he laid the sod over his perfect cut shot in. He was fairway center. You can't use him as an example. After he chunked it, he was mentally done.

[Bill Brightly]

Missed by 1 getting conditional status, which would have meant a handful of tournaments and no
pre qualifying to get in Monday qualifying.  (does that read as confusing as it looks? )

I basically get to go straight to Monday qualifiers without having to pre qualify on Thursdays before.
If i get in some events and make enough, I can get in the re shuffle before the last 5 events.

Basically I qualified for a gray area

Good effort, Pat. I've always felt that there is an incredibly compelling story that rarely gets told: every year there are hundreds of extremely talented golfers struggling to get their card, keep their card, pay the bills, and still enjoy the game. They attempt this without the comfort of lucrative endorsement deals and teams of coaches/adisors. This rama is played out every week at every event, but we all tend to focus on the winners and "the names."

Sorry for the threadjack.

[JMEvensky]

Missed by 1 getting conditional status, which would have meant a handful of tournaments and no
pre qualifying to get in Monday qualifying.  (does that read as confusing as it looks? )

I basically get to go straight to Monday qualifiers without having to pre qualify on Thursdays before.
If i get in some events and make enough, I can get in the re shuffle before the last 5 events.

Basically I qualified for a gray area

Good effort, Pat. I've always felt that there is an incredibly compelling story that rarely gets told: every year there are hundreds of extremely talented golfers struggling to get their card, keep their card, pay the bills, and still enjoy the game. They attempt this without the comfort of lucrative endorsement deals and teams of coaches/adisors. This rama is played out every week at every event, but we all tend to focus on the winners and "the names."

Sorry for the threadjack.

Agreed. Professional golf is a lot more than who finishes where in the FedEx Cup standings.ALL these guys are good,some are just more good at the more right time.

Apologies for prolonging the threadjack--which was my fault in the first place.

[Chris DeToro]

Guys,

While Phil butchered the hole, Monty had no problem with it, until he laid the sod over his perfect cut shot in. He was fairway center. You can't use him as an example. After he chunked it, he was mentally done.

I disagree-- I think Monty is a great example here.  Yes, he hit a poor iron shot, but he missed it in a near impossible spot to get up and down, mentally done or not

[Brett Wiesley]

Back to the original thread...I thought WFW was extremely long from the back and was glad I played from a normal man's tee.  The fairways are indeed too narrow, the rough too deep, and the real gem of the course is the green contours, and deep bunkers.  If you can land yourself in the fairway, the second shot can be great fun and the double and triple breaks on the greens memorable.  Despite the length, there are short holes and many options.  However, if off the FW it more of a chop out to leave 100 yd in for your approach.  WFE was great fun, with more interesting recoveries around the greens.  Haven't played since Gil Hanse made some alterations.

[Michael Felton]

I chipped in for a 3 on that hole this summer. Could have sold that to a fair number of people for a LOT of money 8 years ago. Now that we've got that out of the way 

I have no issue with a hole being difficult if someone hits a poor shot. Monty hit an awful 2nd and I have no issue that he put it in a spot that was virtually impossible to get it up and down. He shouldn't have hit it there. Likewise Phil was spraying it all over the place that day. He'd got away with it a lot, but then he compounded it by trying to play a stupid second shot too. He should have been playing it out to the fairway and got 4 the hard way (says I with my 20/20 hindsight in place). Those guys didn't deserve to have playable shots after the shots they hit.

The course is a beast from the back tees. Just relentless, but as others have said, from the members' tees, it's actually very playable. Just don't put yourself in the wrong spot on the greens.

[Ronald Montesano]

Guys,

While Phil butchered the hole, Monty had no problem with it, until he laid the sod over his perfect cut shot in. He was fairway center. You can't use him as an example. After he chunked it, he was mentally done.

I disagree-- I think Monty is a great example here.  Yes, he hit a poor iron shot, but he missed it in a near impossible spot to get up and down, mentally done or not

I'll continue this one for a bit...memory fails me...did Monty leave  the approach short of the green, in the throat?

[Matt Bielawa]

Short right I believe...in the rough, if my memory serves me right.

[Ronald Montesano]

Well, that would certainly be as bad a place to miss it. I remember watching that moment, thinking "My goodness, Monty is about to win the Open. This is his shot, with his club. Unbelievable." Well, it was unbelievable, but not in the manner I had envisioned.

I haven't been aboard either WF course, so my participation ends here. I will savor the denouement of the thread, though.

[Chris DeToro]

Yes, he was short right which to a front pin is just impossible to get up and down from with the amount of slope in that portion of the green.  It's the one spot you cannot hit to with that pin, but if he had missed long or left, he might've had a chance. 

I played WFW from one tee up and found it quite playable distance wise even on cool, late November day.  Yes, it's quite narrow and there are a bunch of trees, but I never got the sense that it was overly narrow. 

WFE is a lot of fun to play.  The par 3s are very enjoyable and 10 might be one of my favorite holes anywhere

[V. Kmetz]

I'm down some in recent years, but I still get 25-40 loops in at WF per season, and I get to see both courses in all types of season and all types of competition from top amateur, to premier member tourneys, to member-guests and hacker outings.

1. One thing that's "in spades" at #18W, which is fitting as a conclusion of the West's entire character, is its "boldness."  The "audaciousness" of the golf tasks and shot vistas, the contours, the strategic carries, is/are really maximized for an inland course. While it doesn't quite have the "enormity" found in so many CBM-SR-CB Template holes/courses, the massive, erupting shoulders and greenside swells make each task, each green target something monumental in the mind's eye, just like many of those holes/courses.

2. I think this is one of a handful of reasons for why so many deem it "fair" though extraordinarily tough on a medal score... On just about every hole, the demand looks so "mighty" that I think many golfers contemplate that they might not execute it, and realize the frank problems with not doing so...the vexing greens, cavernous bunkers... cunning, bold, fast greens...somehow a golfer expects problems if they don't pull off quality shots on WFW...and so are not as annoyed or dismayed at their outcomes. And of course, most golf at WF is at match play, and there is the hope/amusement that your opponent has to overcome similar failings. I can't think of a course more exacting in the dynamics of match play than both WF courses...having a ball safely in play or on a green is damn calming to oneself and damn troubling to an opponent who hasn't yet played; and this is felt most acutely when the tasks are as frankly "mighty" as they are there.

3. Pat is justly descriptive to include the fairway ridge (at the narrowing corner of fairway 165 to 135 out from the green) as a nuanced feature  of this hole, as it really affects the flight properties of that (again) monumental approach, as well as the precise lie from which its played. Not only can it tilt you for slices and hook actions, but the ironic conundrum in greatest part is that the closer you get the more the lie is uphill. And thus paired with a shorter club for a shorter distance, the precise ratio of impact that the lie will have for a shot that is all carry is confounding...(I'm 152 to the pin, normally a 7-iron...but the lie may balloon my flight....do I go up to 6-iron, which, if I cream it, will sail to the back, which is better than the front, but no bargain...let me step on the 7...ugh)

4. An idea of green contour up close and personal...look at photo 2 of JCs below (widest angle from behind green)...See the outline of the tree shadow that encompasses the pin?...If you were unlucky enough to come to rest back there, the putt would break increasingly hard, right to left, almost on the outer margins of the tree shadow...complicating it more is that this putt must be judged down a severe speed ramp and then emerge from the lowest point, with enough delicate up-ramp brakeage, so as to take the full measure of borrow and settle by the cup (GREEN LINE), but not so much as to skate right on by...and back down the fairway (RED LINE)...and not so little as to wilt away to the left, where it can lose itself in the central depression in the surface OR lost outside too soft and leave a treacherous downhill 12 footer...



Green = perfect 50 footer, down, around and up
Red = perfect line, too much speed, right on past, and likely off the green, 40 yards back down the enormous slope
Yellow = too soft on proper line, gets gobbled up to the left, too soft on a pushed line leaves treacherous 12-14 feet stuck up on the rim of the green slope

There's more, but that's enough for now.

cheers

vk

[Chris DeToro]

Great diagram of the slopes on that green.  Just further proof of just how difficult this hole is and how exacting of an approach is required

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