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Ronald Montesano

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Re: What are Donald Ross's best or most distinctive holes?
« Reply #25 on: November 21, 2014, 08:08:46 AM »
I failed to mention #16 at Teugega, in my zeal/zest to jump on #11.
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Mark McKeever

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Re: What are Donald Ross's best or most distinctive holes?
« Reply #26 on: November 21, 2014, 08:18:30 AM »
Andrew, that looks like a sweet, tempting par 4!!

MM
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abmack

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Re: What are Donald Ross's best or most distinctive holes?
« Reply #27 on: November 21, 2014, 08:49:11 AM »
Andrew, that looks like a sweet, tempting par 4!!

MM

It really is.

A.   It's very difficult to judge the right distance for a layup off the tee. The tee shot entices you to hit too much club which would put you on the road.

B. The green is tiny and very severe.

One of my favorite short par 4s

Josh Tarble

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Re: What are Donald Ross's best or most distinctive holes?
« Reply #28 on: November 21, 2014, 08:59:42 AM »
My nominations are mid-west centric:

Hyde Park #3 - if someone was murdered on this green, it would be as famous as the duel hole at SFGC.  



Hyde Park #4 - a short-ish par 4 to a green perched way in the air.  It's as bold as it is difficult and as difficult as it is cool.



Hyde Park #7 - perhaps one of the Ross's best par 3s.  A hilltop to hilltop par 3 with an incredibly interesting green.


French Lick #16 - another par 3.  This time a very short, heavily bunkered version.  With an incredible green.
« Last Edit: November 21, 2014, 09:05:19 AM by Josh Tarble »

Ian Andrew

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Re: What are Donald Ross's best or most distinctive holes?
« Reply #29 on: November 21, 2014, 09:38:31 AM »
5th at Plymouth

What I like:
Incredibly long dominant four
Tee shot played over small sandy valley out to crest of the hill...
2nd shot is quite downhill to a punchbowl green
All sorts of running options available, with multiple feeder slopes
But little valley short left will kill the flown approach

Similar holes: 6th and 11th at Glens Falls

The approach on the 5th at Plymouth CC


A look from above for perspective
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BHoover

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Re: What are Donald Ross's best or most distinctive holes?
« Reply #30 on: November 21, 2014, 10:00:52 AM »
We're on the second page of a thread about DR's best or most distinctive holes, and no one has yet mentioned Brookside.  I would argue that the par 3's, specifically #7, #12 and #14 are excellent and quite distinctive, particularly #7 with its distinctive channel that runs diagonally through the green and the short #14 with its infinity-like green.

I don't have decent photos, and I don't want to plagiarize those of others (Becker and Saltzman).

Ronald Montesano

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Re: What are Donald Ross's best or most distinctive holes?
« Reply #31 on: November 21, 2014, 10:03:12 AM »
Assist to Montesano...

That picture of the 6th at CC of Buffalo is indeed a distinctive hole, but it might not even be the best par-3 on that course.  The long par-3 8th, with a ridge 40 yards in front of the green, was a really cool find, too;





in fact the 16th hole at CC-B would be the best par-3 on the vast majority of courses.



The 6th




and 11th at Glens Falls CC





would also make my list of Ross' most distinctive holes.  Perhaps the 17th at Monroe, too.
« Last Edit: November 21, 2014, 10:04:48 AM by Ronald Montesano »
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Mike Hendren

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Re: What are Donald Ross's best or most distinctive holes?
« Reply #32 on: November 21, 2014, 10:36:05 AM »
Bogey, consider the 9th green at Kahkwa.  Please correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't the front punchbowlesque putting surface rare for a Ross course?  

It should be noted that Ross (or his minions) was arguably best known for building very good non-distinctive holes and stringing them together with smart routings.  Distinctive holes are perhaps the exception rather than the rule.  I'm working on a distinctive 18.  So far all I have is the dual fairway 7th at Holston Hills.  

Bogey

Jason, I'd welcome a photo of the hole you mention.  The 7th at Mountain Ridge and 15th at Teugega are twin short uphill par threes to true punchbowl greens where the sides are steep and only the center is pinnable.  

The Battleship hole at Bald Peak posted by Carl is also a dead ringer for the 4th at Memphis CC.

I've also thought that the 16th at French Lick's Hill Course resembled a prototypical Raynor Short sans the thumbprint (though I recall there's a small depression at the front of the green - perhaps only for drainage) - it evokes the 7th at Teugega as well.  

Overall I think your comment has merit as we delve further into Ross' portfolio.  Seems he indeed had a bag of quirk he resorted to on occasion.

JT, good call on the 4th at Hyde Park.  I have it among my 18, though I hate to bump the quarry hole at LuLu.

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BCrosby

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Re: What are Donald Ross's best or most distinctive holes?
« Reply #33 on: November 21, 2014, 01:48:37 PM »
10th at Highlands GC (NC). 11th and 12th at Athens CC (GA).

Bob

Jay Mickle

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Re: What are Donald Ross's best or most distinctive holes?
« Reply #34 on: November 21, 2014, 02:36:42 PM »
Being rather late to the party I thoroughly agree with 4 and 12 at Mid Pines. Number 5 at Pinehurst #2 is a truly great par 4.
Are any of these holes mentioned par 5s?  I have played a fair number of Ross courses and can't remember any of the par 5s as being exceptional.
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Josh Tarble

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Re: What are Donald Ross's best or most distinctive holes?
« Reply #35 on: November 21, 2014, 02:53:30 PM »
Jay,

In my rather limited Ross experience, his work overall seems to trend to very solid rather than distinct/exceptional.  I think Bogey's earlier quote sums it up the best

Quote
It should be noted that Ross (or his minions) was arguably best known for building very good non-distinctive holes and stringing them together with smart routings.

Beverly CC has several very, very good par 5s (#2, #7) and I personally love Broadmoor's 17th.  However, I would  call those very good to great holes if somewhat un-memorable.


Ronald Montesano

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Re: What are Donald Ross's best or most distinctive holes?
« Reply #36 on: November 21, 2014, 04:17:04 PM »
Josh and Mike,

Every once and a while, you get that "Ross designed this?" hole, which may be the best thing about him.
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Jeff Bergeron

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Re: What are Donald Ross's best or most distinctive holes?
« Reply #37 on: November 21, 2014, 05:32:26 PM »
I'll nominate 13 at Franklin Hills.

One of the finest short par 4s on the planet.

Ronald Montesano

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Re: What are Donald Ross's best or most distinctive holes?
« Reply #38 on: November 21, 2014, 05:51:53 PM »
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Robert Mercer Deruntz

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Re: What are Donald Ross's best or most distinctive holes?
« Reply #39 on: November 21, 2014, 06:31:53 PM »
Cedar Rapids 14th.  This green would never allowed to be built today.  This is situated on top of an Indian burial mound.  The hole is a 340 yard par 4.



Mark Bourgeois

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Re: What are Donald Ross's best or most distinctive holes?
« Reply #40 on: November 21, 2014, 06:58:00 PM »
Josh, it looks like I've played the "wrong" Hyde Park by Ross.

Just to keep it real, I'll throw in the 7th at Mimosa Hills. Actually I'll just mail it in by copy-pasting a post made a while back:

The task off the tee is to surmount the ridge shown in the picture below.  From the back tee, the ridge line is roughly 250 yards out, maybe a little farther.  Ideally, the drive comes to rest somewhere around the right-third of the fairway.  This offers a better angle into the green.  But this ridge cants to right.  Under firm and fast summertime conditions, a drive high up the ridge to the left still may hang up, complicating matters enormously.  But a little too far to the right quickly becomes a lot too far to the right.

7 tee


The ridge seen from the tee hides a second, lower ridge put to brilliant use by Ross.  Together, the first and second ridges form a sideways "half-pipe."  In a match between golfers of unequal length, this pipe compresses the distance between their drives: the first ridge provides a turbo boost, the second a turbo brake.

A golfer who nails his tee shot is likely to face a second shot of similar length as the golfer who slightly misses his or who is not quite as long off the tee.  The technology proofing is provided by the second ridge, which requires the energy of something like a 315-plus yard drive, which under firm-and-fast conditions may not be as daunting as appears but nevertheless is not within the capabilities of 99 percent of golfers. Not sure I'd want a design to do this for many holes, but it is nice to see at least one hole that puts golfers on relatively equal footing to test (a) their woods / long irons and (b) their nerve.

7 fairway, showing the second, turbo-brake ridge



Time for a decision.  Does the golfer go for the green, which like Prairie Dunes's 5th is benched into a hillside with a ruinous false front?  From the base of the second ridge, the shot is something like 210 yards.

Why not have a go? Because a third ridge, its top lopped off to present a left-to-right sloping plateau, will propel sharply to the right any shots hit short of the green.  Lurking to the right is out of bounds -- with a paved cart path ready to supply the final indignity of shooing a dying shot beyond the white stakes.

This slope has an amazing and very demoralizing efficiency at transferring the ball's kinetic energy into, well, a bush.

Another, closer look at the approach to 7: note from left to right the slope directly in front of green (the "tan line" follows the slope), the cart path, the OB stakes, the bushes



So the play is to hit some sort of draw into the slope.  Two complications arise: first, the ball lies beneath the golfer's feet, and, second, over-executing this shot produces a highly-challenging, downhill pitch (or bunker shot) to a green running away from the golfer.

Laying up however offers little respite.  From this plateau in front of the green, the golfer must either pitch all the way to the green or chip all the way up; any shots failing the green may well return past his feet owing to the sharp false front plus aforementioned third ridge.  (When this happens the members say they've been "Rossed.")

A hole front left as shown in the picture below is very difficult.

7 green: the third ridge runs from 5 to 40 yards short of the green and sharply from left to right


And there you have it.  A 493-yard par 5 that under firm-and-fast conditions pretty much will guarantee a legitimate chance to go in two; the half-pipe pretty much ensures, under virtually all conditions and from most tees, that shot will be somewhere between 205-225 yards. The golfer who chooses to go for it must propel the ball all the way, playing up to the left if he needs use of the ground at all, risking bunkers left and right and a steep drop off long if he tries the all-carry route.

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jim_lewis

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Re: What are Donald Ross's best or most distinctive holes?
« Reply #41 on: November 21, 2014, 09:30:21 PM »
Distinctive:
East Lake #6.....0ne of, if not, the first island green par 3's

East Lake #18.....rare par 3 finishing hole...really par 3 1/2 for most
"Crusty"  Jim
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jim_lewis

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Re: What are Donald Ross's best or most distinctive holes?
« Reply #42 on: November 21, 2014, 09:32:16 PM »
D
« Last Edit: November 21, 2014, 09:35:36 PM by jim_lewis »
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Rob Marshall

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Re: What are Donald Ross's best or most distinctive holes?
« Reply #43 on: November 21, 2014, 10:21:48 PM »
Chris, It occurs to me that the #6 at CCBuffalo just photographs that way. I'm looking through images I have of the hole from the ridge to the left, to the right and from the tee, and they all make the green look "wafer thin." Fortunately for those playing it, it is not quite that gaunt. I always tell my golfers to play to the front with an 8 iron...usually a club they can manage.

Here are some images from the tour I did last year on GCA. The last image is from the 13th fairway, looking up at the rear of the green.










It's been probably 10+ years since I played CCB.  I remember thinking it was a good course but not  great. That par three was definitely the highlight. Standing on the tee it's kind of like green is suspended in the air. Your pictures are great but I don't think they compare to seeing it in person. It's much more dramatic.
« Last Edit: November 21, 2014, 10:24:20 PM by Rob Marshall »
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Ronald Montesano

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Re: What are Donald Ross's best or most distinctive holes?
« Reply #44 on: November 21, 2014, 10:29:23 PM »
Rob, two things happened since you played it. The storm of 2008 razed 500+ trees on the property, revealing the original vistas of the quarry land that had been shrouded by timber over time. Buoyed by this revelation, the membership retained the firm of Ron Forse to return the course to its origins. I suspect that you'd see it differently today.
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Rob Marshall

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Re: What are Donald Ross's best or most distinctive holes?
« Reply #45 on: November 21, 2014, 10:49:55 PM »
Rob, two things happened since you played it. The storm of 2008 razed 500+ trees on the property, revealing the original vistas of the quarry land that had been shrouded by timber over time. Buoyed by this revelation, the membership retained the firm of Ron Forse to return the course to its origins. I suspect that you'd see it differently today.

You're probably right. Great old clubhouse too.
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J_ Crisham

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Re: What are Donald Ross's best or most distinctive holes?
« Reply #46 on: November 22, 2014, 10:19:50 AM »
Jay,

In my rather limited Ross experience, his work overall seems to trend to very solid rather than distinct/exceptional.  I think Bogey's earlier quote sums it up the best

Quote
It should be noted that Ross (or his minions) was arguably best known for building very good non-distinctive holes and stringing them together with smart routings.

Beverly CC has several very, very good par 5s (#2, #7) and I personally love Broadmoor's 17th.  However, I would  call those very good to great holes if somewhat un-memorable.


Josh,    The set of par 5's at Beverly are collectively considered the best in Chicago . #2 and #7 are quite memorable for a few reasons. The east/west ridge line that bisects the front nine was used by Ross to affect the play of 6 holes on the front nine. The 2nd hole is the highest natural point in Chicago . The very significant drop to the fairway is pretty unusual for Chicago as most of the topography is flattish. In fact the ridge line was the border of Lake Michigan prior to the ice ages. #2 is generally the easiest par 5 unless the pin is tucked back right. #7 may be the best  hole on the course and possibly the best par 5 in Chicago IMO . The tee shot most be long and straight to both carry the ridge line and allow a shot to carry the cross bunkers 100 yds from the green. The fairway narrows due to the sentinel oak trees as you progress the length of the hole. This green also is well bunkered and has some intense internal contours .  As far as memorability ranking goes, the feedback I get from guests is  #7,#11,#18,then #2. I believe the strength and memorability of the par 5's at Beverly are the reason it is ranked consistently in the GW classic top 100 list.

Josh Tarble

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Re: What are Donald Ross's best or most distinctive holes?
« Reply #47 on: November 22, 2014, 11:30:55 AM »
I'm surprised to hear your feedback rankings actually. #7 of course is fantastic. It is surely one of the boldest par 5s Ross has done. I love the drive, which seems like you're hitting into a wall and as you said, the cross bunkers really make the second interesting.

In my opinion #2 is the second best, mainly based on the tee ball and that green! I'm sure #11 is memorable because of the length. But overall they are an excellent and varied set of 5s. They would be great to play everyday.

Frank M

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Re: What are Donald Ross's best or most distinctive holes?
« Reply #48 on: November 22, 2014, 11:43:07 AM »
Does the uphill 17th at Essex County Club count? The green has been changed as far as I understand, but still very distinctive.

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