[Carl Rogers]

I note an occasional counter- comment to my comments on this thread.  (which is OK.)
Final thought....
I am completely of 2 minds.

1. Should courses be judged on their own terms? What is this course trying to do and how well does it do it?
(Did Lester want to do a real back breaker of a course???)

2. Or in a comparative sense to other courses?  

Perhaps in a few more years, I can figure that out (for myself at least).

I have yet to play any other Lester's courses, except Lambert's Point, a 9 holer in Norfolk, VA, and it is a real outlier by any standard. So, I do not know how to compare BH to the whole of Lester's work.  But I have played Tobacco Road 5 times now and I find that TR is a much more of a strategically playable than BH (at least for me).  The golfer can choose to take on TR or choose to lay back or go around. The golfer cannot do that at BH.

[Kevin Lynch]

The only final touch I can suggest is a diagram or aerial of the routing.  I think the essence of the course and the club has been captured.

I added one around hole #5, but if someone joined in late, they wouldn't see it.  I'll edit one of my comments from the first page and add it in for future reference.  Also, I only started the aerial hole maps on #4, so I may go back and add #1-3 as well.

As suggested by Lou, I have modified my first post to include the overall map of the property (and figured out how to add numbers - so it looks much better).  I also added hole maps for #1-3, which included some additional info (such as length of carry on #1 tee).  Wish I'd known how to add numbers / text via Paint earlier.

[Jim Sherma]

Before I finish up my thought I wanted to thank Tommy, Carl, Wade and Kevin for being the motive force behind this thread. Ballyhack is a compelling course on many dimensions.

#17: Good hole with the green creating distinct areas that are effectively a series of small greens given the length. Good hole that probably requires more plays than I have had to really get an idea of how different areas of the green responds to different shots.

#18: Awesome finish. The drive is very demanding with the large tree down the right really playing a big role in my mind. I am generally ok with playing a low cut if I end up on the right side of the fairway the size and roll of the green makes all approaches that much more demanding. Really a hole with a ton of character. I do think that keeping the left hillside more playable/findable really makes you want to challenge the left side of the fairway more. The slope of the hillside is tough enough but if the risk is a lost ball than playing to the wider area on the right and leaving the cut around/under the big tree has to be the better play.

[Chris DeNigris]

There’s a lot to like about the last hole- the incredible green being foremost- but…how often does that tree have to come into play before it’s too much of a hindrance?  For a course that is the epitome of fun- for me 18 is one of the least fun in playability. And ironically it comes at a point where the fun should be building to a crescendo, not the opposite. This is the green that I hit the least- and I don’t think it’s even close. I’ve hit more decent to good drives on that hole where that tree has painfully affected my approach. Now, for better players who don’t mind the challenge of cutting a mid-iron, usually blindly, from a hook lie- this probably sounds like entitled whining. And sometimes I do like that kind of challenge- just not nearly as often as it seems to occur on 18.  Maybe I’d find it somewhat more endearing if it came somewhere else in the round. Just not enough room to intentionally play left-  the penalty for missing on that side is usually severe. Maybe if the left bank was cut low, encouraging balls to feed off the hill into a playable lie it would effectively increase the width and help some.  The frustrating part is that the green is so cool- and inherently built with tremendous defense mechanisms-even while accepting straightforward iron shots. I'd just like to be able to try that more often.

I think the back nine is hard to criticize- for me it’s that good. I only quibble with the drive on 12 and that dang tree on 18.

[Tommy Williamsen]

Chris, I am of two minds about the tree on 18.  For the most part the only trees that come into play are the tree from the short porch on 15 and the tree on 18.  The tree on 18 is a wonderful specimen tree that would be hard to lose.  Trees play almost no part at Ballyhack.  On the other hand, its placement really hinders the second shot from the right side of the fairway.  When I am to the right I try to hit it to the front left corner of the green.  If I am back far enough I will try to cut shot around the tree, but it is a little difficult because the ball tends to be above your feet.  I wonder what the hole would be like without the tree.  Not sure I would take it out.

[Ronald Montesano]

Here's an older aerial which better captures the "three quadrants" referred to by Chris. 

Wouldn't that be "thirds" and not "quadrants"?

[Ronald Montesano]

Regarding the tree on the final traipse, why not take out the bunker that is even with the tree, across the fairway from it, on the left? Then, grass that area into a fairway hollow. You don't lose the specimen tree (which I agree, should stay) and you give a bit more fairway. At that point, if they still miss right, t-s.

[Jason Thurman]

If a scratch player or pro complains about a bunker that's too tough, or drawing an unfairly difficult lie, or a pin cut in a spot on a green that they can't fire at directly, we shake our heads and accuse them of failing to understand architecture.

Stick one of us in the fairway behind a tree that forces a layup or play away from the flag, though, and everybody wants to blow the hole up.

18 isn't one of the best moments on the course, but one of the things I like about it is the way it presents a challenge that goes beyond simply hitting targets. Just hitting the fairway isn't enough, as it's possible to get stymied behind the tree or catch a kick left when the ball lands that sends it into the rough. Just hitting the green isn't enough, as it's gigantic and four-putts are realistically possible if the approach is played imprecisely. It's a hole that demands a strong finish and rewards the thoughtful player who can avoid panicking if he misses Position A off the tee or fails to hit the green.

[JBovay]

Tommy,

Thank you so much for putting this tour together. It's clear that you love Ballyhack, and who wouldn't? This has taken a lot of effort, and I know we all appreciate it.

Kevin,

Really appreciate your hard work with the diagrams. Surely for people who haven't played Ballyhack, but also in some cases for me, they've been really helpful in showing some of the contours that affect strategy.

--

A few comments on the inward holes:

I'm one of those who thinks the short porch is the play on 15. Part of this is because I hit my 4-iron in the fairway at least twice as often as I do my driver. I'm glad to hear the opinion of those who know the course the best--Lester, Wade, Tommy--about the disadvantages of using the short porch.

16 is really interesting to me because it's labeled a Cape hole yet appears straight from the tee. It functions as a Cape hole because of the slope that Kevin pointed out in his diagram.

I love 17. With such a short approach shot, you really don't deserve an easy par unless you can stick it into the correct portion of the green. I'm sure good players like Wade and Tommy have never faced a recovery shot from the front right bunker to a back pin, but let me tell you all, that's one tough shot.

--

Macro comments:

I played with a guy a few weeks ago who said to me: "I really like Ballyhack. I think it's a great match-play course." I believe Tommy expressed early in this thread that he disliked that label. I think it's rather apt, for a few reasons. (1) It's hard to avoid big numbers and post a low score, as evidenced by the VA Open scores. For high-handicappers, in particular, there will be many holes that cannot be easily finished while playing by the Rules. (2) There are so many different options on so many holes. I expect that when you're playing a match and you see your opponent or partner hit one into the gunch or pull off something heroic, your strategy is very likely to change. At so many courses, there's only one way of playing the hole: straight down the middle and as close to the green as possible.

On the severity of hazards and the potential for lost balls. Several pages ago, there was discussion about whether the bunkers' edges were too penal: whether there was too much of a fine line between a recoverable shot and an unplayable lie. I tend not to think of this as a big deal, and that the bunkers at Ballyhack are true hazards that players should take great care to avoid.

I do think there needs to be diligent effort to keep the fescue under control and allow errant shots to be found. Having to spend time searching for a lost ball significantly slows play and if the balls are not found, it's a severe penalty compared with when they are. It sounds like much of the fescue was marked as a hazard during the Open, which was a great idea. (Never thought I'd mention this on this site, but the course I played regularly in high school had several areas where a lost ball was almost certain but were not marked as hazards. Our coach implemented his own local rule, declaring them lateral hazards.)

If the fescue areas are kept under control, Ballyhack plays as a fine golf course that conforms with 12 of MacKenzie's 13 principles (save walkability) in an emphatic way. A terrific accomplishment for Lester and everyone associated with Ballyhack.

JB

[Lester George]

Gentlemen,

To be sure, there is history behind the tree on 18, and none of you would have removed it under the circumstances.  Beside that, I limbed the bottom of the tree up so you could go-to-ground if necessary from behind/beside it.  The bottom limbs are 10 to 15 feet above your ball. Even with my challenges of late and little practice, I can still hit a low cut.  Moreover, unless you are totally stymied against the tree, there is a reasonable shot to the left side of the green with a generous run-up from the fairway.  If you are stymied directly behind the tree you hit a miserable drive, or you may have been on the wrong tee.

To all, especially Tommy and Wade, thanks for doing this.  I really enjoyed reading differing theories and opinions about Ballyhack.  Although some were totally misguided, most were entertaining and thoughtful.  I will continue to support those who support Wade and the George Cup at Ballyhack.  I hope Jim Sherma uses the heck out of his membership and I know all of us will look forward to seeing all of you on your next trip to the Hack!

Lester   

[Lou_Duran]

Lester,

Care to elaborate a bit on the history of the tree?

Even at reduced capacity you must be quite the player- threading a 190 yard punched cut off an uphill hook lie with a perfect trajectory to go under the tree, rise above the elevation behind it, and sneak between three bunkers after a 220+ yard "miserable drive" into the prevailing wind (that's the shot I recall facing in the DC back on 10/11).  Of course, I don't remember a 10'-15' "limbed" clearance either, but my memory is not good these days.  That my triple lost the hole to a double might suggest that we were on the wrong tees, though we were already playing the third set.  I know that we prefer wide and short on this site, but we've yet to bridge playing from the ladies' tees.

 

[Andy Hughes]

Gentlemen,

To be sure, there is history behind the tree on 18, and none of you would have removed it under the circumstances.  Beside that, I limbed the bottom of the tree up so you could go-to-ground if necessary from behind/beside it.  The bottom limbs are 10 to 15 feet above your ball. Even with my challenges of late and little practice, I can still hit a low cut.  Moreover, unless you are totally stymied against the tree, there is a reasonable shot to the left side of the green with a generous run-up from the fairway.  If you are stymied directly behind the tree you hit a miserable drive, or you may have been on the wrong tee.

To all, especially Tommy and Wade, thanks for doing this.  I really enjoyed reading differing theories and opinions about Ballyhack.  Although some were totally misguided, most were entertaining and thoughtful.  I will continue to support those who support Wade and the George Cup at Ballyhack.  I hope Jim Sherma uses the heck out of his membership and I know all of us will look forward to seeing all of you on your next trip to the Hack!

Lester   

I heard a rumor that all prior George Cup Champions were to receive a membership.  Any truth to that? 

So after this thread has run its course, I am surprised how little chatter there has been about what a wonderful driving course Ballyhack is.  I didn't realize it until Chris busted my chops about a few of my favorites--but there are a LOT of really cool, fun, tempting drives out there. That a number of those cool, fun, tempting drives end up biting me in the tuchas now and then I think only adds to the rush.

[Kevin Lynch]

I heard a rumor that all prior George Cup Champions were to receive a membership.  Any truth to that? 

So after this thread has run its course, I am surprised how little chatter there has been about what a wonderful driving course Ballyhack is.  I didn't realize it until Chris busted my chops about a few of my favorites--but there are a LOT of really cool, fun, tempting drives out there. That a number of those cool, fun, tempting drives end up biting me in the tuchas now and then I think only adds to the rush.

The rumor only applies to George Cup Champs who show up to defend their titles.   

No doubt from me about the fun off the tee at Ballyhack.  You can change lines or change clubs beyond the decision to change tees. It speaks to the elasticity that Wade refers to.  Add in the variability of wind conditions, and  you'll never be bored or lulled into a repetitive strategy at Ballyhack.  And I can certainly attest to potential for bite marks from experience.

[Tommy Williamsen]

I just returned from two days at Ballyhack.  As I was walking, yes walking, to the first tee I looked toward the sixth tee and saw this.


Not only are the trees all cut down but the area is going to be maintained as rough. Interesting.

[Kevin Lynch]

I just returned from two days at Ballyhack.  As I was walking, yes walking, to the first tee I looked toward the sixth tee and saw this.


Not only are the trees all cut down but the area is going to be maintained as rough. Interesting.

Wow!  Never thought I pulled this much weight as a former George Cup Champ!  All I said was "I'd love to see the view of the green less obstructed, simply for the temptation aspect."   

Personally, I love the change.  It will be interesting how "rough" the new area will be.  Lost ball height or a spin-robbing few inches?  As we discussed during the main thread, this is a really tough green to hold, even from the fairway, so the latter would probably not be iving people a "free pass" off the tee (the beauty of a well-designed green).

As I noted several times, any softening of the punitive edge of BH will only serve to escalate it even higher in the stratosphere.  The design is so solid and challenging that it will never be a "pushover," even if the longest grass on the course was 2 inches. 


PS - Did the reigning runner-up join you this weekend?

[Wade Whitehead]

Kevin: I think Jim is going to be here today and tomorrow.

WW

[Wade Whitehead]

Saw the work on #6 today.  It's a good example of an inexpensive change that makes the course more playable for the average player without reducing the challenge for the accomplished player.

WW

[Jim Sherma]

I was down Saturday and Sunday and played 54 in a nice brisk wind and low 50's temps. Much better than what we had up in PA. The course was in great shape for this time of year. I headed down with a friend who is fairly well travelled and the course certainly did not disappoint him. The work on 6 definitely opened up the views. I did not realize how much it was changed until I looked at the before pictures in this thread.

The hazard area left and short of the fairway is still staked and as I sadly found out on my first round is still potential lost ball territory. Is the plan to drain it so that it can be maintained as rough? The angle from there coupled with some primary rough would still be a difficult shot.

In some ways opening up the view of the green makes it harder to not choose a more aggressive line. The line of charm versus line of instinct dichotomy is much more in evident and therefor much more in play. I would not be surprised if you have more players ending up in the hazard area than before due to this.

[Jon Cavalier]

I was down Saturday and Sunday and played 54 in a nice brisk wind and low 50's temps. Much better than what we had up in PA.

Sure as hell was. Especially Saturday. I would have loved to see 45 and a bit of sun.

Really enjoyed this thread and this golf course. Thanks much for your efforts.

[Tommy Williamsen]

The new superintendent has done a remarkable job in keeping the course ready for daily play and has used a lawnmower in a many more places. You still are punished for wayward shots but at least you can find them.

[Tommy Williamsen]

Ballyhack has some excellent par fives. Number two has all kinds of options off the tee and a third shot into a skyline green. Number ten seems designed by God the way it snakes around a big valley and number fifteen gives you options to hit the green in two, even for short hitters like me.
Number nine, however, had a major flaw. It took driver out of your hands. Oh, hitting a driver was possible but you had to aim for a sliver of fairway to the left of a nasty bunker. It could have been a principal’s nose but there was no fairway to the right of the bunker and hitting it over the bunker was not an option. The only real route was to hit something short of the bunker. To be sure it is better to hit the tee shot to the right side of the bunker or you have a blind second shot.






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The view from the bunker.

[Tommy Williamsen]

The new owners decided to make an alteration. This past winter the bunker was moved to the right. This opened up the left side of the fairway and put driver back in the hands of most everybody.[/size]I have not played the new hole but Wade Whitehead sent me a couple of pictures with some commentary.The new bunker sits alongside the steep bank along the right side of the fairway. The bunker has two purposes. One keeps the tee ball from running down the hill and the other is penal.New view from the tee.

[Tommy Williamsen]

The view from the bunker toward the green.

[Tommy Williamsen]

From Wade:
From the white tee, I hit driver and it ran around the bunker and down the chute. I had 225 into the green.
From the next day back, conditions have not been dry enough. Driver rolls out to about even with the bunker. The left side is much deeper and does not reward the player with extra role. You have to take on the bunker to take advantage of the new contours. It’s really cool.

I am eager to get there and try it out. I still probably won't reach the green in two but it will be nice to hit driver.

Maybe Wade will chime in.

[Jim Sherma]

A lot will depend on how the left rough is maintained. If the rough is lost ball gunch then I would think a lay up is still the prudent play since a good second still gets me to a 9 iron or less most days and I'm probably not long enough to be able to get home in two from next to the bunker anyway. If the left side is reasonable though the driver risk will certainly be considered by many. If you hit the driver like Wade then getting home in 2 is in play and it becomes a very cool risk-reward shot.


The way it was made the hole very one dimensional. Regardless of the tee I played the shot was to the same place just with a 3-wood versus a hybrid or 7-wood.

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