[David Davis]

http://www.golfdigest.com/golf-courses/2012-01/americas-75-toughest-courses?currentPage=2

What's Pacific Dunes doing in there. Or am I alone in thinking it's really fair for all levels compared to the others?

Or is it just that I love playing in the wind?

[Paul Gray]

I imagine Pac Dunes is tough for many golfers that are simply not familiar with the concept of running the ball along the ground. The most innocuous of links courses is often a struggle here in Britain for the long hitting 12 handicapper that is used to bomb and gouge golf.

[John Kavanaugh]

Since this is a Digest list maybe it is the 75 courses where JC Jones would have trouble breaking 80.

[Chris DeToro]

Pacific Dunes certainly wouldn't be top of mind when you asked me to list the hardest courses I've played, but I think it just depends on how you define tough.  So for someone that isn't used to that sort of golf, I could see PD being very hard even if you don't have to be a bomber

[David Davis]

Also note that Cypress is placed 46th.

Yet many at the treehouse are also saying it's way too easy. I mean 46th out of 10,000 or however many courses in the US. Surely that would receive a lot of disagreement!

[Joe_Tucholski]

Also note that Cypress is placed 46th.

Yet many at the treehouse are also saying it's way too easy. I mean 46th out of 10,000 or however many courses in the US. Surely that would receive a lot of disagreement!

The title probably shouldn't read the 75 toughest courses and there was basically a limit on the selection of courses (they did allow write-in votes).  The first page of the article discusses the methodology.  The Golf Digest panelist were asked to select 15 courses that "wear them out the most."  The ballot included the 50 courses from the last toughest course list, "the 100 courses with the highest combined USGA Course Rating and Slope Rating scores, and the 100 courses that panelists rated highest in Resistance to Scoring."  So basically they had less than 250 courses to pick from and the sentence "wear them out the most" means something very different than toughest to me.

[Chris DeToro]

So they could be worn out if the course was a difficult walk 

[Michael Wharton-Palmer]

Any list of tough courses that doesnt have Oak Hill in the top 5 is a non worthy list, PR the raters involved couldnt find the back tees

Oak Hill is the ONLY course where I stand on the first tee knowing that I am going to have to  bring at least most of my game to break 80

[Chris DeToro]

Totally agree on Oak Hill--it's one of the tougher courses I've played.  I think Wolf Run is a lot harder than its standing on this list.  Wannamoisett is also incredibly difficult and not mentioned here. 

[David Davis]

Any list of tough courses that doesnt have Oak Hill in the top 5 is a non worthy list, PR the raters involved couldnt find the back tees

Oak Hill is the ONLY course where I stand on the first tee knowing that I am going to have to  bring at least most of my game to break 80

Michael, I imagine you are among the better players in the treehouse but I'm curious what your take would be if playing these courses from one tee up from the pro tees.

In Europe I mostly play the back tees but we are not talking 7200+ yd. I find between 6500 and 7200 although 7200 pushes the pleasure I get out of the course as I end up not playing a variety of clubs when nearly all the par 4's are 400+ yd like at Bethpage. For me the back tees are too much there. The tees that were playing 6800 were perfect, still long with all the wind but made for a super fun day, there was also no roll. I'm off 6 and another guy I didn't know that was in the group played off 6.5 and insisted on playing the tips. The course tore him apart, no way he broke 110 on his round.

Other examples being Winged Foot and Shinnecock which are high up on the difficulty list. I played them all one tee up from the pro tees and that suited really perfect for me. The back tees would of likely been ridiculous, especially at Winged Foot with no roll at all.

I'm now wondering if any of the Golf Digest guys actually played the tips and if so what were their hcps? To your point about Oak Hill, would a 6 hcp find it as much of a challenge from one tee up as you do from the pro tees? That could be the reason they rated it lower.

[Carl Rogers]

Tobacco Road at 67???
Having played it now 5 times, it is not hard to score reasonably, while playing away from the trouble.
Ballyhack needs to included in the 75 toughest.  See other threads.

[Dave McCollum]

This list is absurd-- as are all lists, but that’s another matter—and should be called “Toughest Usual Suspects” or some such.

[Terry Lavin]

This list is absurd-- as are all lists, but that’s another matter—and should be called “Toughest Usual Suspects” or some such.

You speaka da troof!

[Jonathan Mallard]

Royal New Kent goes from 16th or thereabouts to off the list.

Guess no raters made the trip?

[Will Lozier]

Not sure why East Lake is on there either.  Pac Dunes nor Bandon Dunes belongs.

[Sven Nilsen]

Not sure why East Lake is on there either.  Pac Dunes nor Bandon Dunes belongs.

Will:

I'd disagree on the Bandon courses.  If we're looking at these courses with their normal weather conditions, as the #1 ranking for TOC suggests, I think they are actually listed too far down the list, and I'd throw Old Mac in there as well.

Sven

[Will Lozier]

Not sure why East Lake is on there either.  Pac Dunes nor Bandon Dunes belongs.

Will:

I'd disagree on the Bandon courses.  If we're looking at these courses with their normal weather conditions, as the #1 ranking for TOC suggests, I think they are actually listed too far down the list, and I'd throw Old Mac in there as well.

Sven

Sven,

Having caddied over 100 rounds total on the three original courses and played another probably 30-40, I'll have to confidently disagree.  Yes, the weather can be a bear but, all were designed with enough width to accommodate even higher handicaps.  You've probably gotten a similar number of loops at Bandon so I am curious as to how your players have gotten round on the average weather day.  I personally would never put any of the resorts courses in the top 100 toughest tracks from an everyday perspective and that is based on a pretty large sample size.  Hope all is well out there...assuming you are still getting pretty decent weather?

Cheers,
Will

[Sven Nilsen]

Not sure why East Lake is on there either.  Pac Dunes nor Bandon Dunes belongs.

Will:

I'd disagree on the Bandon courses.  If we're looking at these courses with their normal weather conditions, as the #1 ranking for TOC suggests, I think they are actually listed too far down the list, and I'd throw Old Mac in there as well.

Sven

Sven,

Having caddied over 100 rounds total on the three original courses and played another probably 30-40, I'll have to confidently disagree.  Yes, the weather can be a bear but, all were designed with enough width to accommodate even higher handicaps.  You've probably gotten a similar number of loops at Bandon so I am curious as to how your players have gotten round on the average weather day.  I personally would never put any of the resorts courses in the top 100 toughest tracks from an everyday perspective and that is based on a pretty large sample size.  Hope all is well out there...assuming you are still getting pretty decent weather?

Cheers,
Will

Will:

It was blowing a steady 45 mph on Saturday with gusts up to 65.  Winter has arrived. 

Even in the more normal 15 to 25 mph range, I find that most folks put too much lateral spin on the ball or hit it too high to control their shots.  Old Mac and Bandon are a little more user friendly in terms of width, but Pac is, as you know, a bit tighter (or punishing) all the way around (Trails has the benefit of being a bit shielded in places, but that North wind can still wreck havoc from 15 on in).  On all of the courses, the problems begin when you get out of position.  Throw in the blind will to play at the pin at all costs, and you can see some big numbers.

Sven

[Keith Phillips]

Agree that this is a typical weak list, but also agree with Sven that Pac Dunes is far tougher than the others for this erratic mid-handicapper.  I missed fairways on 1 and 18 by 2 feet both times I played PD and had lost ball - I love the course but found it far less forgiving than its siblings, so it rates #4 at the resort for me...AND isn't out of place on a 'toughest golf courses' list.

[Jud_T]

Sven,

Why is the course rating of Bandon Dunes over 3 strokes higher than PD from the tips then?  As a hack, I always found BD to be the least fun and always managed to lose a ball or two coming in at BD, not so much at PD.   Obviously once you're pushing a 4-club wind on any of the courses it's a horse of a different color...

[Sven Nilsen]

Sven,

Why is the course rating of Bandon Dunes over 3 strokes higher than PD from the tips then?  As a hack, I always found BD to be the least fun and always managed to lose a ball or two coming in at BD, not so much at PD.   Obviously once you're pushing a 4-club wind on any of the courses it's a horse of a different color...

Jud:

Your take is just about the exact opposite of every Bandon newbie I've come across out here.  The common refrain is that Bandon is the most playable of the four courses, and for many the most fun.

Pac Dunes is big boy golf, you have to hit good shots to not only score, but to avoid blowing up.  The greens are harder to hit, the hazards are more penal and the driving areas are skinnier.  If you get out of position on holes like 6 or 16 at Pac, you're not looking at a 5, you're looking at an X.

As for the ratings, one guess is that they were based on the old back tees of Bandon, which measured significantly longer than the number on the card today.  They're still back there, they're just not used very often.  The rating from the tees that most people play (the Greens) is just about the same for both courses.

Sven

[Michael Wharton-Palmer]

Any list of tough courses that doesnt have Oak Hill in the top 5 is a non worthy list, PR the raters involved couldnt find the back tees

Oak Hill is the ONLY course where I stand on the first tee knowing that I am going to have to  bring at least most of my game to break 80

Michael, I imagine you are among the better players in the treehouse but I'm curious what your take would be if playing these courses from one tee up from the pro tees.

In Europe I mostly play the back tees but we are not talking 7200+ yd. I find between 6500 and 7200 although 7200 pushes the pleasure I get out of the course as I end up not playing a variety of clubs when nearly all the par 4's are 400+ yd like at Bethpage. For me the back tees are too much there. The tees that were playing 6800 were perfect, still long with all the wind but made for a super fun day, there was also no roll. I'm off 6 and another guy I didn't know that was in the group played off 6.5 and insisted on playing the tips. The course tore him apart, no way he broke 110 on his round.

Other examples being Winged Foot and Shinnecock which are high up on the difficulty list. I played them all one tee up from the pro tees and that suited really perfect for me. The back tees would of likely been ridiculous, especially at Winged Foot with no roll at all.

I'm now wondering if any of the Golf Digest guys actually played the tips and if so what were their hcps? To your point about Oak Hill, would a 6 hcp find it as much of a challenge from one tee up as you do from the pro tees? That could be the reason they rated it lower.

David.
Irrespective of length, I think whatever tees suit your game, OAK HILL i s very very tough.
My game is not enough to play from the tips, even though that is where we always play in the Williams event, but even a tee up the course is still so very demanding.
Not a single hole where you can switch off and relax, just superb in that respect.

[Michael Wharton-Palmer]

Not sure why East Lake is on there either.  Pac Dunes nor Bandon Dunes belongs.

+1
Unless it is tipped out and then it is just hard by being long.
To me length alone to make a course tough is simply bad design.

[David Davis]

Sven,

Why is the course rating of Bandon Dunes over 3 strokes higher than PD from the tips then?  As a hack, I always found BD to be the least fun and always managed to lose a ball or two coming in at BD, not so much at PD.   Obviously once you're pushing a 4-club wind on any of the courses it's a horse of a different color...

Jud:

Your take is just about the exact opposite of every Bandon newbie I've come across out here.  The common refrain is that Bandon is the most playable of the four courses, and for many the most fun.

Pac Dunes is big boy golf, you have to hit good shots to not only score, but to avoid blowing up.  The greens are harder to hit, the hazards are more penal and the driving areas are skinnier.  If you get out of position on holes like 6 or 16 at Pac, you're not looking at a 5, you're looking at an X.

As for the ratings, one guess is that they were based on the old back tees of Bandon, which measured significantly longer than the number on the card today.  They're still back there, they're just not used very often.  The rating from the tees that most people play (the Greens) is just about the same for both courses.

Sven

+1 on this.

Jud same experience I've had there myself (but only 4 visits) and nearly everyone I run across says the same. I really haven't experienced BD as being even close to as challenging/resistant to scoring as PD I'd have to say.

[MClutterbuck]

The idea of preparing this ranking is dumb. And the methodology and/or title is dumber. I realize we all have different weather and course setup experiences, and even our game travels differently to different courses, but...

 Pebble can not be considered so much tougher than Muirfiled Village, in fact, I think it is easier, of course it depends on the weather.

Augusta can not be considered tougher than Muirfield.

Also, I have not played Medalist, but it seems like a perfect example of a course that from what i have heared has to be a lot tougher than  Pebble, Muirfield Village or ANGC.

Of course I am speaking from regular member tees.

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