[JR Potts]

JR,

If they're going to build another course, that would seem to indicate that the long term prospects look pretty good, wouldn't you say ?

Indeed - but it can also indicate a need to provide something new to bring people back.  I've been there three times - don't know if I need to go again.  My companions in the last two trips don't feel the need to return.  While a third course would certainly bring me back, not sure it will for the rest of them.  For the money, most in my group would just as well go to Bandon or overseas.

[Patrick_Mucci]

JR,

If they're going to build another course, that would seem to indicate that the long term prospects look pretty good, wouldn't you say ?

Indeed - but it can also indicate a need to provide something new to bring people back.  I've been there three times - don't know if I need to go again.  My companions in the last two trips don't feel the need to return.  While a third course would certainly bring me back, not sure it will for the rest of them.  For the money, most in my group would just as well go to Bandon or overseas.

Bandon is more expensive than Streamsong.

And, the weather is dicier.

Overseas ?  You must be kidding.

Why wouldn't I want to return to Streamsong ?  Especially in the fall/winter/spring ?

What's easier to get to, Streamsong, Bandon or Overseas ?

[Bill Brightly]

For students of golf course architecture, the courses at Streamsong and the success the resort appears to be enjoying should be absolute proof that minimalism works, and is the future of gca. The place is pricey, in the middle of nowhere, with many other golfing options for consumers, and yet the tee sheet at SS is full. Good for SS, I can't wait for course #3.

[K Rafkin]

JR,

If they're going to build another course, that would seem to indicate that the long term prospects look pretty good, wouldn't you say ?

Indeed - but it can also indicate a need to provide something new to bring people back.  I've been there three times - don't know if I need to go again.  My companions in the last two trips don't feel the need to return.  While a third course would certainly bring me back, not sure it will for the rest of them.  For the money, most in my group would just as well go to Bandon or overseas.

Bandon is more expensive than Streamsong.

And, the weather is dicier.

Overseas ?  You must be kidding.

Why wouldn't I want to return to Streamsong ?  Especially in the fall/winter/spring ?

What's easier to get to, Streamsong, Bandon or Overseas ?

Patrick, Id love to try and answer some of those rhetorical questions you asked.

Yes I would love to return to Streamsong especially in the winter!

and after doing some hours of extensive research i have come to the conclusion that streamsong is significantly easier to get to then bandon/overseas.

The truth is is that there is really nothing in the South (states that are warm during the winter) that rivals Streamsong especially if they were to get a 3rd course.  For some reason the biggest criticism i hear about Streamsong is that "it isn't Bandon" and "id rather go to Bandon".  Although these statements are true is this even really criticism?  Today Bandon had a high of 61 and a low of 54 and a 70% chance of rain, inversely Streamsong had a high of 86 a low of 62 and clear skies.  Although Bandon has a good batch of dedicated loyalists that will play in any condition (im going in 12 or so days) the majority of golfers will not.  These very golfers who have no interest of playing "winter golf" should be flocking to Streamsong.  

As Bandon gets a good bit of local business in the Off season (which remember are opposite for Streamsong and Bandon) Streamsong can just as easily pull from inn staters.  Florida is the 4th soon to be 3rd most populous state.  Fort Lauderdale and Miami are just over 3hrs away, Orlando is 1.5hrs, tampa is a little bit less.  Bandon is 4 hours from portland and closer to Eugene and Bend, but those cities are no where close to the population Streamsong has in its proximity.  Hell sacramento is almost 8 hours to Bandon.  Although Streamsong happens to be in the middle of nowhere its remarkably close to various large population centers.  

And finally one thing that is failed to mention when talking about the success of Streamsong especially compared to that of Bandon is the land.  Although streamsong isn't on the ocean and will never be on the ocean (at least until the ocean rises a few feet) the Mosiac Company already owned the land, and had owned the land for a long time.  In order to build those courses they didn't need to purchase several hundred of acres on the oregon coast.  This is rarely brought up but i can only imagine what kid of edge this can give them financially.  If they want to build a third and fourth course they can, because they already own the land.  Hell im pretty sure they could build a 10th and 20th course if they needed it, dont they own like 15,000 acres?

Sorry but i just really like Streamsong.  And i especially like the ridiculous hotel that looks like it was designed by a James Bond villain.  

[Greg Holland]

I don't have a map in front of me, and I realize Streamsong is on the west side of FL, but is it really as far west as Detroit, as Pat suggested?  Didn't realize FL was in the Southwest.   

[Brian Finn]

I don't have a map in front of me, and I realize Streamsong is on the west side of FL, but is it really as far west as Detroit, as Pat suggested?  Didn't realize FL was in the Southwest.   

No, it isn't quite that far West (more like Cleveland, if you want to be precise), but his point about additional evening sunlight is spot on...Streamsong's winter sunset is 45-50 minutes later than NYC, especially advantageous on day of arrival. 

I visited last February, loved both courses, and plan to return in 2015.  I know several groups of guys (mostly from NYC metro area) that loved it enough that they plan to go annually (in addition to / in place of other FL options on either coast).  An additional course (or two) at Streamsong would keep these same groups on site another 24 hours, as there are only a handful of truly great alternatives in FL.  Most of those are quite private and all of them busy during the winter, making the premium cost of Streamsong worthwhile to many.

[Brent Hutto]

I can see why someone who lives where it's cold, dark and miserable for 4+ months a year would think Streamsong's Florida location is an advantage over Bandon or the UK.

But speaking as someone who lives in the southeastern USA where it is hot, muggy and insect-plagued for 4+ months a year I'd say traveling to a hotter, muggier, more insect-plagued place seems less attractive.

[JC Jones]

For students of golf course architecture, the courses at Streamsong and the success the resort appears to be enjoying should be absolute proof that minimalism works, and is the future of gca. The place is pricey, in the middle of nowhere, with many other golfing options for consumers, and yet the tee sheet at SS is full. Good for SS, I can't wait for course #3.

What exactly is minimalist about Streamsong?

[Kevin_D]

JR,

If they're going to build another course, that would seem to indicate that the long term prospects look pretty good, wouldn't you say ?

Indeed - but it can also indicate a need to provide something new to bring people back.  I've been there three times - don't know if I need to go again.  My companions in the last two trips don't feel the need to return.  While a third course would certainly bring me back, not sure it will for the rest of them.  For the money, most in my group would just as well go to Bandon or overseas.

Bandon is more expensive than Streamsong.

And, the weather is dicier.

Overseas ?  You must be kidding.

Why wouldn't I want to return to Streamsong ?  Especially in the fall/winter/spring ?

What's easier to get to, Streamsong, Bandon or Overseas ?

My reaction to this is similar to Pat's - you must be kidding.

For those living in the Northeast US (which is what - 120 million+ people?) as well as the Midwest, Streamsong is an absolute no brainer.

Bandon is the best golf resort in the country, and I know that it can get somewhat warm during the winter - but it also gets flurries on occasion.  It's also incredibly hard to get to, and only makes sense if you can carve out 4-5 days.

Overseas - same problem, and if you mean GB&I you must be kidding as far as weather.

As for the summer months, I would expect that to cater to locals within a couple hour's drive - no one is leaving the Northeast to go to FL in the summer, that should be obvious.

For a weekend trip of great golf during the winter, Streamsong is a fantastic option.  Two fantastic (and different) courses, a short plane trip from NYC followed by a drive of just over an hour, and you never need to leave the place.

This discussion board never ceases to amaze me.  I guess people can bitch and moan about anything.

[Josh Tarble]

Of course Streamsong is going to be expensive if you go for 4 days, stay in the clubhouse, take caddies for every round, etc.  I've done it for relatively cheap both times I've gone. 

I walked and carried, played 36 in a single day and stayed off-site.  For that, you're really not talking a lot more than a standard Florida course.  It's a long day and it is a difficult walk, but it is do-able.  Taking a cart for one round would only add $50 to the total.

[Brent Hutto]

For students of golf course architecture, the courses at Streamsong and the success the resort appears to be enjoying should be absolute proof that minimalism works, and is the future of gca. The place is pricey, in the middle of nowhere, with many other golfing options for consumers, and yet the tee sheet at SS is full. Good for SS, I can't wait for course #3.

What exactly is minimalist about Streamsong?

I think nowadays "minimalist" means "design by a 'minimalist' architect". It's a recursive definition.

Or maybe it just means no waterfalls and few if any flower beds.

[Tom_Doak]

I think nowadays "minimalist" means "design by a 'minimalist' architect". It's a recursive definition.

Or maybe it just means no waterfalls and few if any flower beds.

What does it mean to you?

To me, it means that we didn't move much dirt or re-shape the fairways.  Streamsong (Blue) scores about 65-70% on that scale.

Really the main impediment to us building courses as minimalist as we used to is that we all have too many talented people on payroll and they all keep thinking of ways to improve what's there.

[JC Jones]

I think nowadays "minimalist" means "design by a 'minimalist' architect". It's a recursive definition.

Or maybe it just means no waterfalls and few if any flower beds.

What does it mean to you?

To me, it means that we didn't move much dirt or re-shape the fairways.  Streamsong (Blue) scores about 65-70% on that scale.

Really the main impediment to us building courses as minimalist as we used to is that we all have too many talented people on payroll and they all keep thinking of ways to improve what's there.

You didn't move much dirt but the mining company completely changed the earth before you got there.  The course does not reflect the natural state of the land, which is part of what makes minimalism.

[Brent Hutto]

Tom,

I'm afraid to me it means about as much as buzz words like "championship course" or "shot values". A decade ago when I came to this forum I thought I knew what it meant and the label tended to match up to my own preferences.

I've now seen "minimalist" overused to the point where it has lost whatever specificity it might have had back then. Or maybe it was always simply a loose term meant to convey the sense of "The kind of course we like" and I was too new to the GolfClubAtlas culture to notice.

Honestly, I've got to take it on faith when I read things like Ran's comments on Royal St. Davids. He doesn't use the word "minimalism" of course but he does comment on the absence of "harsh manmade features" and make similar judgments about that course not unlike what might be said about "minimalist" designs. I personally can't read a course in situ and tell the difference between a harsh manmade feature vs. a harsh one that was found already there, know what I mean?

P.S. Are the courses at Streamsong really totally, comprehensively, instamtly recognizable as being in a totally different category than Tobacco Road? Just to use one example of a course on reclaimed land, built by a designer that (to my knowledge) has never been labeled "minimalist".

[Michael Wharton-Palmer]

So much better than Whistling Straits in my opinion.
Way more subtle and enjoyable, the entire atmosphere is great.
Hard to pick between the two courses, but the back nine on the Red is rather challenging so I guess most people opt for a 6/4 Blue over Red.
For those who have not been, got to do it.

[JR Potts]

JR,

If they're going to build another course, that would seem to indicate that the long term prospects look pretty good, wouldn't you say ?

Indeed - but it can also indicate a need to provide something new to bring people back.  I've been there three times - don't know if I need to go again.  My companions in the last two trips don't feel the need to return.  While a third course would certainly bring me back, not sure it will for the rest of them.  For the money, most in my group would just as well go to Bandon or overseas.

Bandon is more expensive than Streamsong.

And, the weather is dicier.

Overseas ?  You must be kidding.

Why wouldn't I want to return to Streamsong ?  Especially in the fall/winter/spring ?

What's easier to get to, Streamsong, Bandon or Overseas ?

My reaction to this is similar to Pat's - you must be kidding.

For those living in the Northeast US (which is what - 120 million+ people?) as well as the Midwest, Streamsong is an absolute no brainer.

Bandon is the best golf resort in the country, and I know that it can get somewhat warm during the winter - but it also gets flurries on occasion.  It's also incredibly hard to get to, and only makes sense if you can carve out 4-5 days.

Overseas - same problem, and if you mean GB&I you must be kidding as far as weather.

As for the summer months, I would expect that to cater to locals within a couple hour's drive - no one is leaving the Northeast to go to FL in the summer, that should be obvious.

For a weekend trip of great golf during the winter, Streamsong is a fantastic option.  Two fantastic (and different) courses, a short plane trip from NYC followed by a drive of just over an hour, and you never need to leave the place.

This discussion board never ceases to amaze me.  I guess people can bitch and moan about anything.

Well Kevin D - "bitching moaning" really?  Well, if saying the place is really expensive is bitching and moaning then I guess I'm guilty.  But at least I'm guilty of doing so under my name.  And who even mentioned weather?

My point has again been blown out of proportion, which is a common theme here.  Simply put, Streamsong is great...I've said that repeatedly.  But, for me and my friends, Streamsong is a destination resort, it's not a pop-in, pop out place - and it's certainly not priced that way - maybe intentionally, maybe not.  Either way, it's not my problem.

Pat - for my winter golf I can go down to Naples or Orlando or West Palm or Scottsdale, stay at friends places and play most anywhere.  That's a pop-in, pop-out trip.  For my resort/destination golf, which Streamsong is to me, I feel like I've been there, done that, with Streamsong.  If I'm going to drop a grand a day, I'll prefer to do it somewhere more exotic in the future.  And my crew seems to agree - yours may not.  But, like I said, time will tell.

Bitching and moaning....please.

[Brent Hutto]

Bitching and moaning....please.  And who even mentioned weather?

It was probably me that brought up weather. I wasn't the one bitching and moaning though, that must have been someone else.

[Kevin_D]

JR,

Is "complained" a better word for you?

You said that you would prefer to go to "Bandon or overseas"...my point is that neither is a great option in winter (assuming "overseas" is GB&I), and both take a lot of time to get to from most anywhere in the US.  So it's a bit of a silly comparison.

By contrast, Streamsong is a relatively quick trip from the northeast, and one can play 54 or 72 holes in 2-3 days there on a couple great courses.

If you really prefer a weekend in Naples or Orlando, well, to each their own I guess.

As to price, I think you get what you pay for, but I acknowledge that not everyone will be able to afford the place.

[JR Potts]

It's a bit better - but you read the part where I wrote that I've been there three times, right?

Expensive is a fact, not a complaint.

[Carl Nichols]

It's a bit better - but you read the part where I wrote that I've been there three times, right?

Expensive is a fact, not a complaint.

Is it more expensive all-in than Bandon, at least during their respective high seasons?  It looks like in mid-March 2015 you can pay about $550 at Streamsong for a night of lodging and 36 holes of golf one of the days.  I don't think Bandon is any cheaper than that in June.  And that's before you factor in airfare; for me, at least, it's way cheaper to fly to Tampa or Orlando than North Bend or Eugene.   

[JR Potts]

No, but it's commensurate.  It wasn't an apples to apples comparison.

Just saying, if dropping a shitload of money, I'd much rather go somewhere new and somewhere more exotic than Central Florida.  And, I'm saying that we will see in the next 5 years or so whether others agree - or if they keep coming back.  That's all.

 

[Carl Nichols]

No, but it's commensurate.  It wasn't an apples to apples comparison.

Just saying, if dropping a shitload of money, I'd much rather go somewhere new and somewhere more exotic than Central Florida.  And, I'm saying that we will see in the next 5 years or so whether others agree - or if they keep coming back.  That's all.

 

Got it.  For me, it's as much about time as money -- given how much easier it is to get to Central Florida for me, Streamsong is a real possibility for a long weekend (especially during the winter), while Bandon and overseas destinations really aren't.

In fact, I'm trying to reinstate what was a long-running trip for 20 high school friends that hasn't happened for a couple of years.  While I'd prefer to go to Bandon, we're much more likely to go to Streamsong because of the travel, which makes a long-weekend trip really plausible for the group (most of which live on the East Coast).     

[John Kavanaugh]

No, but it's commensurate.  It wasn't an apples to apples comparison.

Just saying, if dropping a shitload of money, I'd much rather go somewhere new and somewhere more exotic than Central Florida.  And, I'm saying that we will see in the next 5 years or so whether others agree - or if they keep coming back.  That's all.

 

Got it.  For me, it's as much about time as money -- given how much easier it is to get to Central Florida for me, Streamsong is a real possibility for a long weekend (especially during the winter), while Bandon and overseas destinations really aren't.

In fact, I'm trying to reinstate what was a long-running trip for 20 high school friends that hasn't happened for a couple of years.  While I'd prefer to go to Bandon, we're much more likely to go to Streamsong because of the travel, which makes a long-weekend trip really plausible for the group (most of which live on the East Coast).     

Private school?  I have trouble finding three other guys willing to drop that kinda of money on a golf only resort.  20 high school friends dropping $40,000 on a weekend of golf, again, wow.

[JR Potts]

No, but it's commensurate.  It wasn't an apples to apples comparison.

Just saying, if dropping a shitload of money, I'd much rather go somewhere new and somewhere more exotic than Central Florida.  And, I'm saying that we will see in the next 5 years or so whether others agree - or if they keep coming back.  That's all.

 

Got it.  For me, it's as much about time as money -- given how much easier it is to get to Central Florida for me, Streamsong is a real possibility for a long weekend (especially during the winter), while Bandon and overseas destinations really aren't.

In fact, I'm trying to reinstate what was a long-running trip for 20 high school friends that hasn't happened for a couple of years.  While I'd prefer to go to Bandon, we're much more likely to go to Streamsong because of the travel, which makes a long-weekend trip really plausible for the group (most of which live on the East Coast).     

Private school?  I have trouble finding three other guys willing to drop that kinda of money on a golf only resort.  20 high school friends dropping $40,000 on a weekend of golf, again, wow.

It's because you have been hoarding all of the downstate money.  Do your fair share and treat your buddies already.

[Carl Nichols]

No, but it's commensurate.  It wasn't an apples to apples comparison.

Just saying, if dropping a shitload of money, I'd much rather go somewhere new and somewhere more exotic than Central Florida.  And, I'm saying that we will see in the next 5 years or so whether others agree - or if they keep coming back.  That's all.

 

Got it.  For me, it's as much about time as money -- given how much easier it is to get to Central Florida for me, Streamsong is a real possibility for a long weekend (especially during the winter), while Bandon and overseas destinations really aren't.

In fact, I'm trying to reinstate what was a long-running trip for 20 high school friends that hasn't happened for a couple of years.  While I'd prefer to go to Bandon, we're much more likely to go to Streamsong because of the travel, which makes a long-weekend trip really plausible for the group (most of which live on the East Coast).     

Private school?  I have trouble finding three other guys willing to drop that kinda of money on a golf only resort.  20 high school friends dropping $40,000 on a weekend of golf, again, wow.

Public.  We had 20 guys for about 8 years in a row, and then it died in 2009.  I have my doubts that 20 will show up next year.

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