News:

This discussion group is best enjoyed using Google Chrome, Firefox or Safari.


PCCraig

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Ferry Point Pics
« Reply #50 on: October 21, 2014, 08:38:06 PM »
$150 for a round at Ferry Point, considering the NYC market, is downright cheap. The course doesn't look overly great, but it is seems interesting enough for a public golf course built on top of a dump.
H.P.S.

archie_struthers

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Ferry Point Pics
« Reply #51 on: October 21, 2014, 08:39:12 PM »
 ??? ::) ???

Can I assume it was hundreds of politically connected contractors feeding at the public trough.  What a disgrace .

When will we learn ..

Steve Lapper

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Ferry Point Pics
« Reply #52 on: October 21, 2014, 08:45:10 PM »
??? ::) ???

Can I assume it was hundreds of politically connected contractors feeding at the public trough.  What a disgrace .

When will we learn ..

Archie,

Bingo!! Say whatever you want about Trump, but he finished the shaping of the last few holes and the grow-in on his dime. The only winners here...the unions and politicians. Who knows, maybe there are enough of them left with with their lined-pockets to sport the new greens fees?

Cheers
The conventional view serves to protect us from the painful job of thinking."--John Kenneth Galbraith

archie_struthers

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Ferry Point Pics
« Reply #53 on: October 21, 2014, 08:56:45 PM »
 ::) ::):) :'(

Didn't think the Trump Organization was the problem , thanks for the info Steve .

I'm so sensitive to this because when we built Twisted Dune the local pols and their henchmen ruined our project. Then split with the cash , what a crime this pay to play is and no one seems to really care.


Steve Lapper

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Ferry Point Pics
« Reply #54 on: October 21, 2014, 09:06:12 PM »
Archie,

   Yours is the story of exactly why I never went through with building KBM's otherwise brilliant design at Old Bridge, NJ. Although it would've been a great addition to the public golf scene in NJ, the political bovine were so blatantly lined up at the trough....all licking their chops.  :P :P
The conventional view serves to protect us from the painful job of thinking."--John Kenneth Galbraith

Bill Brightly

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Ferry Point Pics
« Reply #55 on: October 21, 2014, 10:17:40 PM »
I really do not want to get into a debate about costs, but since Jay has thrown the $236 Million number out there, we should know that this includes $55 million for 30 acres of adjacent new parkland and a waterfront esplanade. And an incredible amount of money was spent on the excavation and removal of municipal solid waste and other environmental remediation as mandated by environmental standards. As previously mentioned, this money would have been spent if the site was going to be used for ANYTHING.

Is the news REALLY that a long-term public project in NYC had huge cost overruns? Perhaps. But I am happy that a waste site was remediated and there is another public course golf option in NYC. The $150 weekend greens fee may seem high, but I believe the marketplace will determine the final price, as it should.

So let's start the real debate that we should be having on GCA.COM. How good is the course?



Bill

I am afraid the pix don't entice me to worry too much about the architecture given the green fee.  Do you see anything that would entice you to pay $150 and up for a pop?

Put me down as one who thinks that sort of pricing for an NYC muni is stupid.  The project has already succeeded in the clean up.  Is there some compelling reason why the city felt it had to allow a firm to charge top whack pricing? 

Sorry, I have a lot of time for the clean-up and little time for the course.

Ciao

Sean,

Having read your posts about lesser knowm gems, and how you "upgrade" a course if it has lower greens fees, I'm sure there will be little about Ferry Point that will please you. You would rather find and drink a really good $20 bottle of wine rather than fork over $150 for a bottle of Caymus. No matter how good the Caymus tastes, that price will burn in your mouth, right? I get that and appreciate it. But keep in mind that there is SUCH a lack of high quality public access golf near NYC, that a $150 weekend greens fee is certainly not high. Take my son, for example. Twenty seven years old, decent salary living in The City, but not willing to pony up the money to be a junior member at my club since he'll only play it a few time per year. I could easily see he and his buddies going over to FP.

Would I pay it on a regular basis? No, I belong to a private club. (My average cost per round is much higher, but I don't ever do THAT math! :)  ) But if I were younger and making a decent wage and not yet in a club, sure. Say all you want about the Donald, but every course that he operates is in superb condition and run in a first class manner. I bet the overall experience at FP will be pretty damn good, especially for golfers who do not belong to a private club.

Jim Nugent

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Ferry Point Pics
« Reply #56 on: October 22, 2014, 01:00:43 AM »
$150 for a round at Ferry Point, considering the NYC market, is downright cheap.

Cheap for who? 

There's a market for high-end Mercedes and Ferraris.  There are markets for $100 million yachts and London penthouses.  But not among average people. 

Golf/country clubs cater to the well-off.  No problem.  They are private.  Charge whatever they like.  Public courses, built with over $100 million of public money (or is that over $200 million?), should be accessible to the average person IMO.   

I just saw some dollar figures on this project.  Source is the NY Daily News, April 10, 2014: figures were compiled by the Independent Budget Office.  City is paying $236 million to build the course and the public park/esplanade next to it.  $181 million went to the course alone.  The total is 10x more than the city/builders projected when they started the project. 

The city contests that $181 million figure.  “A large fraction of this [construction] cost was from the excavation and removal of municipal solid waste and other environmental remediation that we performed as . . . mandated by new environmental standards,” Parks Department spokesman Arthur Pincus. 

But the city admits that the course itself, absent the environmental issues, cost $127 million to build. 

So if these numbers are right, the city spent $127 million of the public's money to build a public golf course (plus another $110 million on related issues).  It cost 10x more than it was supposed to.  It plans on charging north of $100, and maybe north of $150.  Maybe a bargain for the country club set.  For the muni golfer it's extremely high. 

New York is so big, with so much money, Ferry Point may fill its tee sheets.  The price seems totally, outrageously absurd to me, though -- for a municipal golf course. 

This has nothing to do with markets, btw.  The market did not build this course.  Government did, with the public's money.  If green fees reflected the actual cost, I think they would have to charge north of $500 per round, and maybe quite a bit more. 


Sean_A

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Ferry Point Pics
« Reply #57 on: October 22, 2014, 04:39:18 AM »
Bill

I have always been about getting good quality for a good price and sometimes $250 for a game of golf is a good price.  I use pix all the time to decide where I will spend my money and in the pix shown, I am not seeing anything which justifies the $150 green fee.  The second point is I agree with Jim, the entire golf side of Ferry Point is a travesty.  To spend taxpayer money on a public access product whose price point effectively excludes a huge percentage of taxpayers isn't clever.  How anybody can be in favour of $150 green fees for a muni is beyond me. 

Ciao 
New plays planned for 2024: Dunfanaghy, Fraserburgh, Hankley Common, Ashridge, Gog Magog Old & Cruden Bay St Olaf

M. Shea Sweeney

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Ferry Point Pics
« Reply #58 on: October 22, 2014, 08:48:44 AM »
Why don't we wait and see what the greens fees are for a NYC Resident and a Non-Resident?

A golf course built a long the water in NYC--on a former dump--did anyone think this would be cheap?

____________________________________________________-

How much did it cost to build Bayonne? Similar situation--

If it is priced too high than the set that plays at Douglaston, Dyker, Clearview, etc. will stay right there. NYC courses have NEVER been in as good of condition and prices have stayed somewhat consistent over the last 10 years.

I've said it in an earlier thread, and I will say it again---If the NYC Junior Rate is not offered then there is a problem. I don't care if you guys have to pay $150.00 to play this course. Some things are high end, and it is what it is- but if the city decides to neglect the Junior rate, then there is a major problem.

Chris DeToro

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Ferry Point Pics
« Reply #59 on: October 22, 2014, 09:02:25 AM »
$150 for public golf in New York in a site that many casual players are going to want to come and visit for several years isn't outrageously expensive.  They're going to get plenty of out of state play that will bring more money into the state than just the in-state play.  When the novelty has worn off, I imagine the price will come down to something more reasonable

M. Shea Sweeney

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Ferry Point Pics
« Reply #60 on: October 22, 2014, 09:05:30 AM »
$150 for public golf in New York in a site that many casual players are going to want to come and visit for several years isn't outrageously expensive.  They're going to get plenty of out of state play that will bring more money into the state than just the in-state play.  When the novelty has worn off, I imagine the price will come down to something more reasonable
+1

Jim Nugent

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Ferry Point Pics
« Reply #61 on: October 22, 2014, 09:12:19 AM »

How much did it cost to build Bayonne? Similar situation--


Bayonne is a private course.  Unless it was built with public money, the situations are diametrically different. 


M. Shea Sweeney

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Ferry Point Pics
« Reply #62 on: October 22, 2014, 09:14:41 AM »
Jim-
Why? I am just looking at the nuts a bolts of the cost?


Steve Lapper

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Ferry Point Pics
« Reply #63 on: October 22, 2014, 09:25:27 AM »
M Shea,

   For starters, Eric Bergstol, Bayonne's developer WAS PAID by a variety of entities to dredge the Bayonne Harbor, thus giving him fill and soil to build his course. Ferry Point's owners, the City of New York, PAID PRIVATE CONTRACTORS to truck in dirt to cap and fill a garbage waste dump.

Sean,

   The original plans of nearly thirty years ago called for vastly cheaper greens fees, reflecting both a realistic budget and cheaper construction and operational costs. Surely even you can understand that the real travesty is neither the greens fee nor the golf side, but instead the ridiculous municipal waste ad graft that was enabled by the city. While it doesn't in and of itself justify a high greens fee, ANY potential bidder for the operating rights to the property was going to try to recapture their embedded costs to bring the final phase of the build-out (final few holes, grow-in, and facility construction).
The conventional view serves to protect us from the painful job of thinking."--John Kenneth Galbraith

PCCraig

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Ferry Point Pics
« Reply #64 on: October 22, 2014, 09:41:01 AM »
$150 for a round at Ferry Point, considering the NYC market, is downright cheap.

Cheap for who? 


Considering that a the going rate for a NYC municipal golf course is $50...everyone? The market will dictate that a lot of people will make this their "home" course and play the majority of their rounds there. But for even the typical resident public golfer in the city, it's affordable enough to play once or twice a year at a $100 premium over their normal round.
H.P.S.

Kevin_D

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Ferry Point Pics
« Reply #65 on: October 22, 2014, 09:42:46 AM »
Greens fees that are too low are just as bad as greens fees that are too high.  If too low, it becomes impossible to get a tee time, and you are condemned to play 5+ hour rounds (as is the case with most NYC munis).

Econ 101.  It's not very complicated, people.

M. Shea Sweeney

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Ferry Point Pics
« Reply #66 on: October 22, 2014, 10:08:43 AM »
M Shea,

   For starters, Eric Bergstol, Bayonne's developer WAS PAID by a variety of entities to dredge the Bayonne Harbor, thus giving him fill and soil to build his course. Ferry Point's owners, the City of New York, PAID PRIVATE CONTRACTORS to truck in dirt to cap and fill a garbage waste dump.




Steve Lapper-

Do you know what it cost to build Bayonne?

Steve Lapper

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Ferry Point Pics
« Reply #67 on: October 22, 2014, 10:27:01 AM »
M Shea,

   For starters, Eric Bergstol, Bayonne's developer WAS PAID by a variety of entities to dredge the Bayonne Harbor, thus giving him fill and soil to build his course. Ferry Point's owners, the City of New York, PAID PRIVATE CONTRACTORS to truck in dirt to cap and fill a garbage waste dump.




It is far lower than #"s thrown around for FP,  a private number and I'll respect that.

Steve Lapper-

Do you know what it cost to build Bayonne?
The conventional view serves to protect us from the painful job of thinking."--John Kenneth Galbraith

Jay Flemma

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Ferry Point Pics
« Reply #68 on: October 22, 2014, 10:36:50 AM »
Kevin, I'm not sure I agree with that...the problem at most NYC public courses is that many of them use 8 minute tee times. (They did say something about 15 minute tee times at FP, a good idea I think.)

One question that I'm still investigating the was news article that ran last year about how the course was to be semi-private.  I'm not referring to the story Jim found in April of this year, (still one of the best articles about the project), but the one where Trump first got the gig.  Nobody asked about this on media day, sadly.  But from what I'm being told, this isn't going to be priced in a manner where the everyday guy can go play it often...he'll have to wait for what one pundit called "coupon days."  How many of those Trump will bestow upon us in his boundless generosity is an open question.

"Rich men didn't get that way by giving more than they get in return" - George R.R. Martin

One other thing, I'm thinking the initial greens fee will be more like $175...but prepare for that to go up sharply fairly quickly. The quote we got from the GM was "Well north of 100, just south of 200."  But he also made us all laugh when he added, "Whatever we can get," because we knew what he was hinting.

Archie, you nailed down the exact point I was making:  Joe sixpack in Brooklyn only gets to play it a couple times.  The original idea here was a high end daily fee course for the masses that was weekend-affordable every weekend by anybody, not just occasionally by a few.  Somehow, once the pols got involved (and others) that turned into a boon for the pols, the rich folks, and what happens to the everyday golfer?  After all, he paid for it.

Yes, you're all right - Trump got it done.  Good. thank God, because the story of it languishing like it did is an embarrassment.  Given a blank check, the Parks Department showed what it could do - nothing.  Now you know why the conditions of NYC public courses were so dismal for so long.  Yes Trump also tries to run a place the way it should be run.  But there are still also open questions about exactly how good that is - after all we are all reading just yesterday in the paper about the NJ casinos and the problems there.

Design wise it's good, just not really U.S. Open caliber - the fairways are too wide and if you narrow them, many of the bunkers are out of play.  Also some of the center line bunkers aren't really where the pros hit their tee shots.  The greens have good contour, not great.

BUT...the conditioning was absolute perfect, including the way the greens rolled - they were so true you could putt with one hand...and I did that a lot on the short putts.  The other good thing is that you have all kinds of greenside recovery options - you have the whole palette of short game shots to choose from.

I guess I can overlook some of the tenement views for the "uniqueness" of the cemetery.  I think the views of the bridge would jazz me more if there weren't so many cars and trucks jammed on it all the time.  Diesel horns honking is a pretty weird ambiance for golf:):)  But bottom line is it lacks the charm and character of the terrain and setting of the great seaside links.  There's a few really good holes, but just nothing you haven't seen before.

Like I said before - pretty good.  You'll have a great time there.  Go play it, and have fun.  And then - fairly and reasonably - asses where it sits on that list of courses I put together on page one.  If you think it's better than those courses, say so and tell us all which ones and why.

P.S. Most of the city courses are now charging $70 on Saturdays to play (in the morning at least).
Mackenzie, MacRayBanks, Maxwell, Doak, Dye, Strantz. @JayGolfUSA, GNN Radio Host of Jay's Plays www.cybergolf.com/writerscorner

Kevin_D

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Ferry Point Pics
« Reply #69 on: October 22, 2014, 10:57:23 AM »
Jay,

Are you disagreeing with simple economics?  When you under-price something, you get shortages.  Tee times work the same way as gasoline in the 70s. 

I will in no way defend the waste and graft which I am sure has occurred all throughout the building of this project, which I am sure has occurred, as it does with virtually any NYC city project.  However, as to who paid for it - that would be those who pay taxes in New York...which comes disproportionately from the "rich".  You might forget that there is a pretty big % of the population who likes to play golf, is a mid-level professional (banker, lawyer, etc) but can't afford/justify belonging to a private club.  The ~$150ish green fee will greatly appeal to this crowd, as well as "Joe Sixpack" who wants to occasionally try a nicer course than Dyker Beach.

All that said, I hope the course stays fully public, and allocates off-peak times to subsets of the population (juniors and seniors) whose ability to pay is lower than your average person, and perhaps also gives off-peak discounts to NYC residents.

Look - I have no skin in the game.  I haven't played the course (and will probably play it just once after it opens for some time).  And based on the pictures (which I know give limited information), I agree that it looks good, not great.  I am no fan of Trump, but like some of his product (Doral) and will concede he runs and efficient operation.  But I think all of this discussion of how much it cost to build, and how much the greens fees are, is just pointless.

Keith Grande

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Ferry Point Pics
« Reply #70 on: October 22, 2014, 03:36:45 PM »
IIRC, Trump is getting 93% of the greens fee, city 7%.  In return Trump is spending $10 million to build a clubhouse and operate the course for 10 years.

Bill_McBride

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Ferry Point Pics
« Reply #71 on: October 22, 2014, 04:29:25 PM »
??? ::) ???

Can I assume it was hundreds of politically connected contractors feeding at the public trough.  What a disgrace .

When will we learn ..

Can't wait to see American Hustle again!

Joe Bausch

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Ferry Point Pics
« Reply #72 on: October 22, 2014, 05:12:54 PM »
Want more photos? Go here:

http://xchem.villanova.edu/~bausch/images/albums/FerryPoint/

Please, enjoy.
@jwbausch (for new photo albums)
The site for the Cobb's Creek project:  https://cobbscreek.org/
Nearly all Delaware Valley golf courses in photo albums: Bausch Collection

Kevin_D

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Ferry Point Pics
« Reply #73 on: October 22, 2014, 05:26:38 PM »
NICE PICS.

Looks nifty enough to me.

B.Ross

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Ferry Point Pics
« Reply #74 on: October 22, 2014, 05:45:53 PM »
thank you so much for the pics. as i've looked through it, it reminds me ALOT of the seawane club on long island post its renovations... also has some resemblance to long island national / liberty national and that 7th hole reminds me of a par 4 at trumps place in palm beach where you can also try and drive the green.

Tags:
Tags:

An Error Has Occurred!

Call to undefined function theme_linktree()
Back