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Jay Flemma

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Ferry Point Pics
« on: October 16, 2014, 01:54:59 PM »
Played it Tuesday with many of the other Met Golf Writers.  Pretty good, but not truly great.  More like Long Island National with a drop of Bayonne sprinkled in than the Royal Birkdale or Whistling Straits we were promised.  Too many straight-ish holes and not enough angles.  Some great views, but also some ugl;y views too.  Looks totally fake - not natural looking at all (like we were promised).

Cost 237 million to build.  Will get a Barclay's or two, but I can't see a U.S. Open here b/c of all the projects.  "Mr. Trump wants something bigger," said the course GM.    But to me, the other NYC area venues are just flat-out a head above...what'll it replace? Bethpage Black??

Good things:  the conditions were good but not perfect.  We had a lot of rain so even though it dried out well, the fwys aren't F&F yet, although the greens were absolutely perfect...rolled so true you could putt with one hand.  Good macro and micro movement too. They were rather mundane in shapes and almost never followed the axis of the fwy, bu that's okay.  I think they could have been a but more interesting though.

The course is completely modern, nothing classic about it.  It may trade looks for brains...

Anyway, I'll have an article soon. Meanwhile:

#7 short par four



#3 Green w St. Raymond's Cemetery in the background - site of the Lindberg baby kidnapping money exchange



These buildings are an eyesore



18...the bridge - a great finishing view? Where will they put grandstands?



Sixteen - long par-four, one of the holes I did like.



Lots of split fwys and center line bunkers, but it still played penal.  Fwys may be too wide as if you tighten hem for majpr tournament play, it takes the bunkers out of play...





I'll have more later tonight.
Mackenzie, MacRayBanks, Maxwell, Doak, Dye, Strantz. @JayGolfUSA, GNN Radio Host of Jay's Plays www.cybergolf.com/writerscorner

Tim_Weiman

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Re: Ferry Point Pics
« Reply #1 on: October 16, 2014, 01:57:26 PM »
Jay,

Thanks for your honest account. The pictures don't exactly inspire jumping on a plane.
Tim Weiman

Mark Fedeli

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Re: Ferry Point Pics
« Reply #2 on: October 16, 2014, 03:06:31 PM »
Thanks for this, Jay. I expect I'll have a hard time separating my judgment of the course from its rumored cost to residents (in the $150 range). While none of us in NYC were expecting a world-beater, I hope it ticks off enough architectural boxes to make the sting of paying almost twice as much as Bethpage Black (and 3x Red) hurt a little less.
South Jersey to Brooklyn. @marrrkfedeli

astavrides

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Re: Ferry Point Pics
« Reply #3 on: October 16, 2014, 03:23:45 PM »
the emperor looks to be in good form (picture 2).

Jay Flemma

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Re: Ferry Point Pics
« Reply #4 on: October 16, 2014, 03:25:43 PM »
You can't erase that it cost too much too build and was supposed to be a public course for the average NYC [public player to pay 80 bucks...then all of a sudden it became a rich man's plaything by NicklausSignature/John Sanford and will cost "well north of 100 dollars, just under 200," is the expected greens fee.  everyone wins except the people who paid for it.

Design?  Pretty good, but not truly great...and certainly nothing you've never seen before or better executed. It doesn't have the charm or old world feel of a Garden City Rockaway Hunting Club.  (Doak 0/5)  Still, the hype will win out, I fear...I hbet it debuts ridiculously high in the rankings, though...

At 237 million, doesn't that make it the 3rd most expensive golf course in history?  Behind Trump Los Angeles and Liberty National? Courses shouldn't cost that much, especially not municipal courses...or courses originally intended to be municipal...

Call it "Bayonne Light"...

Another view of the approach on 7 - cute little cape hole





Note the center line bunker, a common theme throughout.  Great view of the skyline though.



15 approach



The guy in the blue shirt  just hit the guy in re d(A/K/A "Big Jah")  ;D ;D with a line drive-skull-bladed pitch! Big Jah took it in stride, though.    "I couldn't get out of the way fast enough! If anything I moved into it's path" :):) Oh you wacky kids:)



And, no, that's not the Emperor:):)
« Last Edit: October 17, 2014, 11:02:07 AM by Jay Flemma »
Mackenzie, MacRayBanks, Maxwell, Doak, Dye, Strantz. @JayGolfUSA, GNN Radio Host of Jay's Plays www.cybergolf.com/writerscorner

Phil Lipper

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Re: Ferry Point Pics
« Reply #5 on: October 16, 2014, 03:37:31 PM »
While I enjoyed the golf course and thought is was truly unique, I don't think it would be good for typical tour event let alone a major. I described to friends as Bayonne light. I think its a course that the tour guys would absolutey take apart.
I think over time when the course matures and they let the fescue come in it will be much better. My gut is if they had an extra 15 acres it would have been a better golf course, at least the routing would have been smoother.

Phil Lipper

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Re: Ferry Point Pics
« Reply #6 on: October 16, 2014, 03:40:11 PM »
The $237 million number is deceiving, I think alot of that was spent on capping the landlfill. Thats a expense that would have happened if there wasnt a golf course there.

Greg Tallman

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Re: Ferry Point Pics
« Reply #7 on: October 16, 2014, 03:41:49 PM »
The $237 million number is deceiving, I think alot of that was spent on capping the landlfill. Thats a expense that would have happened if there wasnt a golf course there.

And paying people $100/hour to fill a generator with gas once during an 8 hour shift.

Mark Saltzman

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Re: Ferry Point Pics
« Reply #8 on: October 16, 2014, 03:45:10 PM »
Jay, high rankings or not, I think many or most on this site will underrate the golf course.  Having seen the course but not played it, I will say that I can't wait to get back out there.

Two quick points:

1) the 'ugly views' could equally be called character.  Let's not forget this golf course was built in the Bronx.  Would you have preferred a line of trees surrounding the property?

2) I hope your review discusses the contouring on and around the greens

RJ_Daley

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Re: Ferry Point Pics
« Reply #9 on: October 16, 2014, 03:57:04 PM »
It seems to me that we stereotype the extent of the wealth on Wall Street and the corporate canyons of the Big Apple.  We should recognise tat not all of the 100s of thousands of folks that work in the NYC big biz and small biz and "other" enterprises are making "mega-millions" of dollars a year in salary and bonus.  I dare say that a huge percentage of those 100s of thousands of working men and women only make a NYC subsistance 250K to 500K a year.  And, I dare say there are many 1000s that while they make a mere million a year or so, surely can't afford a proper NYC country club membership at the real deal clubs of Long Island and the metro area.  So, where are these lesser compensated 1000s gonna play there golf and get their golf on?  This must certainly be why Mr. Trump in his munificence has participated in this community project. That golf does not suffer more for lack of the workaday folk accessability - those that keep Wall Street churning, and that they don't make the big bucks, and that they have this community asset to spread the exposure to the game... all "that" Mr Trump supports, I'm sure.  ::)

From Mr. Klein's Golfweek writing:

Quote
"It’s a spectacular piece of land, a major-championship site literally right next to everything, in the city,” Trump said. “It’s important for golf. Golf has been suffering lately, and it’s a major course in the biggest city in the world.”

This municipal venue is well within basic affordability of the large body of workers in NYC commerce and enterprise that only make a middle class living.   ;) ::) ;D
No actual golf rounds were ruined or delayed, nor golf rules broken, in the taking of any photographs that may be displayed by the above forum user.

Jay Flemma

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Re: Ferry Point Pics
« Reply #10 on: October 16, 2014, 04:05:16 PM »
Mark, the character of the neighborhood is the issue - perhaps a berm a la what Doak did at Rawls Course might have worked in places?  Or taller dunes?  Thise ideas both have worked in other places...and at Bayonne, the charm of the neighborhood is much more palpable than the feel of the environs at Ferry Point.  At Bayonne you have the 7 sisters, the flagpole hole, the cranes, the church and natural ;looking dunes with long ridges...at Ferry Point, the places is pretty flat, and features smokestacks, projects, bridges, cemeteries and landfill?

The green contouring, you ask?  Well how come you can only play the ground game sometimes and other times a center-line bunker is in the way?  How manufactured do those green surrounds look?  How cookie cutter?  The flip side is yes, there are many green-side options, but again..."pretty good" but not truly great.

And this is what we do here:  we split hairs between the pretty good and truly great...

They want to be considered for a major and for high rankings, but which of the following courses do you think Ferry point is better than?

Rockaway Hunting Club
Winged Foot (either)
Garden City
Sleepy Hollow
Shinny
National
Forsgate
North Shore
Sebonack
Fisher's Island
Friar's Head
Bayonne
Bethpage Black

I'd say it's better than one...maybe two of those...

It'll probably win best new course the year it opens though because people will want to overrate it for whatever reason.
Mackenzie, MacRayBanks, Maxwell, Doak, Dye, Strantz. @JayGolfUSA, GNN Radio Host of Jay's Plays www.cybergolf.com/writerscorner

Josh Tarble

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Re: Ferry Point Pics
« Reply #11 on: October 16, 2014, 04:11:10 PM »
This is from an outside observed judging solely on pics...but I like the views.  If I'm playing a course in the Bronx I want it to feel like I'm in the city.  I definitely don't want to look at a fake dirt wall.

Mark Fedeli

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Re: Ferry Point Pics
« Reply #12 on: October 16, 2014, 04:12:14 PM »
Jay, high rankings or not, I think many or most on this site will underrate the golf course.  

As far as ranking the best public courses within an hour or so of NYC, I'd not be shocked at all if this were very near the top. There are maybe only a half dozen other courses that could claim to be serious ranking competition (BPB, BPR, Tallgrass, Ballyowen, Neshanic, Pound Ridge).

I haven't played it, of course, but it won't have to do much to at least be the best course in the city (the many charms of Marine Park and Pelham, notwithstanding).  
South Jersey to Brooklyn. @marrrkfedeli

Jay Flemma

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Re: Ferry Point Pics
« Reply #13 on: October 16, 2014, 04:41:59 PM »
Mark, it's better than all of those you list except Bethpage Black...though when you factor in cost...

Pound Ridge is another good comparison/it's as good as Pound Ridge...though it cost six times as much!  And had zero costs in dynamite!  ;D :o :o ;D

Here's the kicker for me.  When I got done, I didn't race to my cell phone to call Ran or Tom Doak to shout, "you have to come play here!" like I did with Old Town, Rockaway Hunting Club, and St. George's!
« Last Edit: October 16, 2014, 04:48:10 PM by Jay Flemma »
Mackenzie, MacRayBanks, Maxwell, Doak, Dye, Strantz. @JayGolfUSA, GNN Radio Host of Jay's Plays www.cybergolf.com/writerscorner

Richard Choi

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Re: Ferry Point Pics
« Reply #14 on: October 16, 2014, 05:55:10 PM »
I don't see anything wrong with the views. Artistically speaking, I prefer the honesty of projects over faux tuscany-cum-Mediterranean-cum-Greek Revival-cum-I have no idea monstrosities that seem to be popular at many courses.

Very excited to try this course on my next visit to NYC.
« Last Edit: October 16, 2014, 06:00:57 PM by Richard Choi »

Steve Lapper

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Re: Ferry Point Pics
« Reply #15 on: October 16, 2014, 06:28:40 PM »
Jay,

    Having walked the course last year with Brad Klein and playing it 2X this year, I find myself at odds with much of your personal critique. I also respectfully believe you failed to understand the context with which it has been developed.

    I don't know what materials the Trump Organization distributed to you, but I, for one, never heard any promises of Royal Birkdale or Whistling Straights. Your emphasis on "ugly views, the disruption of the ground game by "too many centerline bunkers," "lack of charm," excessive costs and comparison to Bayonne (an decidedly different course with a different economic model) speaks loudly not about the course, but about your aesthetic. It is also not a course to be compared to others that were built on better landforms, or decades back by esteemed architects.

    Before I go on to rebut some of these misses, I'll add that you are correct about the greens being off axis and lack of distinct angles. The former is a common refrain to Nicklaus design design, though at Ferry Point, nearly every hole has a opening face to the fairways and permits run-up shots. Many of the guys I played it with used them quite cannily to approach preferred sides. It is far from a pure aerial course (and has to be given the windswept exposure of it's site). Lack of angles is most likely due to having to find 18 holes that need to be CREATED from flat, featureless terrain.

   I don't understand your "ugly views" commentary. Is it because you expect to see upscale private homes, deep forests, or pristine Florida-style swampland? If so, that's pretty snobby, given that those apartment buildings, smokestacks, cemeteries, bridges existed long before this golf course and most certainly reflect the egalitarian nature of municipal golf....found on so many other munis throughout the US. I see you failed to mention the NYC skyline, LI Sound, or waterside park bordering the final three holes. Given your logic so many courses like Ballybunion (Cemeteries), Royal Dornoch (Trailer parks), Bethpage Black (power station smokestacks),  etc...wouldn't make the Flemma cut. Sadly, you leave out that the views of the distant NYC skyline are wonderful and unique for a public-access course.

   I wouldn't dispute its "lack of charm" but find me a newly built muni (save for Chambers Bay, that has such "charm." I agree with Mark Saltzman and think it's setting, views and very existence give this place plenty of fresh character. As for the "centerline bunkers interrupting the ground game, unless you've set out to go lawn bowling, I believe the architect's intent (and a decent effort at that) was to force the player to make decisions as to how to circumnavigate them off the tee and up to the green. Even the best players I've seen out there (Steve Scott) noted that "it's nice to have to make decision which side to tackle."

   As for excessive costs, go ahead and attack the last 30yrs of NYC government waste and union graft. They are to blame. BTW, as Phil Lipper mentioned,it does require an uneconimical amount of $$ to cap a landfill. Just ask Paul Fireman. Eric Bergstol outsmarted folks by getting paid to dredge the Bayonne Harbor and thus had plenty more fill to create his golf pottery gem. The powers that be along the path of completing Ferry Point had no such option. This is the context in which FP should be measured.

  Lastly, you mention you "didn't race to call Ran or Tom Doak to tell them to come play here. Likely, they had caller ID and certainly didn't need you to tell them what they already knew. Your examples of Old Town, St. Georges and RHC were on their radars long before ATT or Verizon sold you service.

  
« Last Edit: October 16, 2014, 08:58:04 PM by Steve Lapper »
The conventional view serves to protect us from the painful job of thinking."--John Kenneth Galbraith

Richard Choi

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Re: Ferry Point Pics
« Reply #16 on: October 16, 2014, 07:36:52 PM »
All righty then...

Didn't see that one coming.

David_Elvins

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Re: Ferry Point Pics
« Reply #17 on: October 16, 2014, 07:55:32 PM »
I reckon those buildings look great.  Not an eyesore at all.  No idea where Jay is coming from with that one.
Ask not what GolfClubAtlas can do for you; ask what you can do for GolfClubAtlas.

Josh Stevens

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Re: Ferry Point Pics
« Reply #18 on: October 16, 2014, 08:07:55 PM »
I assume that wasn't a typo  $237m to build????  Holy crap, how in the hell will that ever make a dollar?  Makes his Turnbury purchase seem the steal of the century

Actually looks moderately pleasant land however - is all that sandy dune movement real, or is that where the $237m went?

Jaeger Kovich

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Re: Ferry Point Pics
« Reply #19 on: October 16, 2014, 09:08:34 PM »
There is nothing inspiring in those pictures.

JWL

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Re: Ferry Point Pics
« Reply #20 on: October 16, 2014, 09:29:23 PM »
Jay
You seem to have a real problem with the cost of the project.   Would you believe that everyone involved with the project had strong feelings in that regard also.    You said this  was a Nicklaus/Sanford plaything?   Are you implying that they are primarily responsible for the outlandish price tag?   As a writer, who is expressing your opinions in print involving concerns like price, since you have mentioned it several times, where has your investigation led you concerning the reasons for such a high cost?  I would be interested in knowing where you are laying the blame, since you have only given that one inference.

Jason Thurman

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Re: Ferry Point Pics
« Reply #21 on: October 16, 2014, 09:30:17 PM »
There is nothing inspiring in those pictures.

The Manhattan skyline and Bronx-Whitestone Bridge aren't inspiring?



Seriously though, the course looks fine if unspectacular. Count me among the fans of the surrounding buildings.
"There will always be haters. That’s just the way it is. Hating dudes marry hating women and have hating ass kids." - Evan Turner

Some of y'all have never been called out in bold green font and it really shows.

Jaeger Kovich

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Re: Ferry Point Pics
« Reply #22 on: October 16, 2014, 09:55:37 PM »
There is nothing inspiring in those pictures.

The Manhattan skyline and Bronx-Whitestone Bridge aren't inspiring?



Seriously though, the course looks fine if unspectacular. Count me among the fans of the surrounding buildings.

I guess it just feels like home to me.

I am 100% apposed to "containment mounds". Draining into the fairways is just wrong for so many reasons.

Tommy Naccarato

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Re: Ferry Point Pics
« Reply #23 on: October 16, 2014, 10:52:36 PM »
Jay, It was great playing golf with you today and I'm sorry I had to whisk out of there to get to LaGuardia to get back on the ride, but Kate (Beckinsale) wanted to get home and we stayed an extra day, just so I could join you guys today.

Its funny, to be home here now and seeing those images from earlier in the day, how fast a G5 will get you back to the coast. Comfortable too!

;)


jeffwarne

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Re: Ferry Point Pics
« Reply #24 on: October 16, 2014, 11:30:26 PM »
Jay, high rankings or not, I think many or most on this site will underrate the golf course.  Having seen the course but not played it, I will say that I can't wait to get back out there.

Two quick points:

1) the 'ugly views' could equally be called character.  Let's not forget this golf course was built in the Bronx.  


The buildings were the only thing that looked  old world linksy to me ;)
"Let's slow the damned greens down a bit, not take the character out of them." Tom Doak
"Take their focus off the grass and put it squarely on interesting golf." Don Mahaffey

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