[Mike Treitler]

Hey GCA,

I had the pleasure of playing Bethpage Black on Monday and here are my thoughts:

#1 Best actual Layout I have ever played.  Every single hole brought something to the table and I was incredibly impressed with its sheer size and power.   It seemed like no matter what club you hit you fall short of the pin because all of the greens are elevated and surrounded by bunkers.

The bunkering off the tee was very impressive... it really penalizes a bad shot and a major premium is put on driving the ball.

On #15 and #16 if you don't hit the fairway you simply cannot get to the green which really makes you sweat your tee shots.  You also leave the course simply exhausted because its a beast to walk due to the undulation.   

Anyways, I loved the course and it jumped into the #7 spot on my all time rankings which I have listed below.  

For those that have played it feel free to chime in.  

1.Turnberry (Ailsa)
2.Bandon Trails
3.St. Andrews (Old Course)
4.Bandon Dunes
5.Carnoustie
6.Pacific Dunes
7.Bethpage Black
8.Kingsley Club
9.Whistling Straights
10.Arcadia Bluffs
11.Spyglass Hill
12.Crystal Downs
13.Dunes Club
14.Kingsbarns
15.Cabo Del Sol Ocean
16.Milwaukee CC
17.Lost Dunes
18.Old Macdonald
19.Greywalls at Marquette
20.Prestwick
21.Golf Club of Scottsdale
22.St Andrews (Castle)
23.Silverleaf
24.Lawsonia Links
25.Four Seasons Punta Mita (Bahia)
26. Cabo Del Sol (Dessert)
27.Bay Harbor
28. Blackwolf Run (River)
29. Whistling Straights (Irish)
30.Glenview Club
31. Shore Acres
32.Quintero Ranch
33.Timberstone
34.Hawks Eye
35. Barton Creek (Canyons)
36. Cascata
37. Barton Creek (Foothills)
38. Erin Hills
39. Black Wolf Run (Meadow)
40. Desert Highlands
Honorable Mention: Skokie CC, Coyote Moon, Wild Rock, Eagle Ridge (General), Pilgrims Run, TPC Deere Run, Fyre Lake, Forest Dune

[Chris DeToro]

I've played Bethpage Black twice, the last of which was in July, and I agree that it's a great golf course.  I found the scale of the golf course, especially for its age, to be the most impressive feature.  The bunkering is also phenomenal especially on 18. 

Based on your list below, I'm not sure I would rank it ahead of some of the ones you have in there especially Crystal Downs, but it's definitely worthy of its praise in my opinion

[astavrides]

If it is the best layout you've played, why is it #7? What are the other criteria for your list? You didn't say anything negative about it in your description.

[Steve_ Shaffer]

Was it a 6 hour round?

[PCCraig]

Bandon Trails better than the Old Course? 

[Tom_Doak]

Bandon Trails better than the Old Course? 

Years ago a fellow told me he ranked my Black Forest course ahead of Pinehurst #2 [which of course is a 10 in my book].  When I asked him why, he said it was because Pinehurst had taken six hours to play.  I immediately dismissed his opinions from then forward.

Unfortunately, though, the fellow is still a member of one of the major magazine ranking panels.

[Mike Treitler]

Love the feedback... I have to admit that I am sucker for scenery.  I am still learning to appreciate the intricacies of golf course architecture.

Bethpage is the best and most complete layout but the greens were relatively flat and although the setting is beautiful it lacks that "WOW" factor like what you might find on a course at Bandon Dunes.

Bandon Trails just blew me away, I felt like I was on a completely different planet.  I loved how hard yet fair it was and the visual appeal of the course was just incredible.

I think experience, playing conditions, tradition, routing, scenery, difficulty level all are a big part of my personal rankings.

Our Bethpage round took about 5 hours and 15 minutes but I loved every minute of it.

[PCCraig]

Mike,

The Irish Course in Kohler over Shoreacres? 

Come on now... Is it April Fools already?

[Mike Treitler]

I haven't played Shore since they re-did it but when I played it I found it to be too easy.   Also, holes 17 and 18 were weak.   

The Irish course at Kohler is a beast which tends to earn my respect.  As long as its fair.

[Jud_T]

Mike,

Your list is all over the place.  The only thing I can glean from it is that you are a low handicapper.  I played the Black in an outing right after the Open in 95 degree heat with a hangover that could have felled a small elephant.  Never again on several fronts!    I have a 1 hdcp buddy who turned down a membership at Shoreacres cause he could only hit driver on a couple holes.  Sounds like we both need to get back out there now...

[PCCraig]

I haven't played Shore since they re-did it but when I played it I found it to be too easy.   Also, holes 17 and 18 were weak.   

The Irish course at Kohler is a beast which tends to earn my respect.  As long as its fair.

Ha - "That track was a BEAST, I proclaim it the 29th best golf course I have ever played." 

[Brian Finn]

Bethpage Black lacks the WOW factor?  Seriously?  If you love gca, I would think you'd easily have at least a half dozen WOW moments your first time around the Black.

Also, what is the deal with calling a course "too easy?"  Any time I hear this, I assume the player has threatened the course record many times over.  Can you clarify what you mean? 

I like your list, simply because it is clearly your own.  We can all question why you prefer course A to course B (I just did), but I appreciate that your list doesn't just mirror published rankings. 

[Mike Treitler]

Brian,

Thanks for the response!   The black definitely has wow factor in the designs of the holes... #4 is incredible!   

However, compare that to #16 at Bandon Dunes where you are on the cliff of the ocean.   I loved Bethpage, #7 in my rankings is no slouch haha so its not like I wasn't wowed by the course itself.

In regards to the "too easy" comment.   I have been a scratch golfer since I was 16, currently I am 29 and a 2 handicap.(I hate working!)   For me personally,  in order for a course to really gain my respect I want to feel sufficiently challenged. 

Turnberry is #1 on my list and I shot a 92 there.  I followed that up with a 73 at prestwick that same day but I had to play lights out to do it so I felt sufficiently challenged.   

When I played Shore Acres I played poorly and shot a smooth 76.   I guess I just like to have to grind it out for a good score.

[Matt Frey, PGA]

While to date I've spent more time studying "top" courses rather than playing them, I would agree that the Black Course is one of my favorites.

From a playability standpoint, it's an absolute brute. It's easy for players to want to play from the back tees, but it's a little more enjoyable from the middle tees.

I agree with Chris; one of the greatest things about the course (and the facility as a whole) is its grand scale...it's truly unbelievable. There are a few holes that should, on paper, play easier than the others (Nos. 1, 9, 13, and 14, in my opinion), but the sheer size of the course's features (bunkers and elevation changes) can really mess with the player's mind and approach. By the time they get to the relatively benign greens, it's easy to lose focus and three putt! 

[Kevin_D]

So Mike, you're now all the way up to a 2...boo hoo hoo 

Love everything about BP Black - probaby my favorite Tillinghast (San Francisco is close)

Played there twice - both rounds were long but not terribly brutal, maybe 4.5 hours

From the white tees, I found it very difficult but not brutal, and had a blast both times I played

I don't actually think it is *that* bad a walk either

[John Burnes]

So you're saying you never played anything in Philly..?  Your list would lose a minimum of 15 courses if you played around there.

ps love the Black.

[Andy Troeger]

Bandon Trails better than the Old Course? 

Bandon Trails might be the most underrated golf course in the world, IMO. It comes in #7 on my list, ahead of a bunch of places that get rated higher. Best course at the resort and 2nd best modern I've played (Friar's Head). I haven't played TOC, but BT can hang in there with pretty much anyplace in my book.

Mike,
I tend to agree with the comments you've made about the Black. I don't have it as high on my list as you do, but I have a lot of respect for the layout and the golf course. The course is too tough for me to enjoy frequently, but it is a very neat place. I also commend your list for it being unique to your perspective. I would have Blackwolf Run River a lot higher, but I like a lot of the courses you have in the top 20.

[Robert Mercer Deruntz]

Having played the Black competitively the past 20+ years in the State Open and other tournaments, I have seen it change significantly.   I really believe that had they only relied upon the expertise of Craig to do his superintendent magic, it would be a far, far better course today.  Rees vandalized the 14th green and built his style bunkers in addition to stupid fairway bunkers on 9 and 13.  Pre Rees, a left drive on 13 went further left being blocked out by the trees or even down the hillside.  In its rugged state, it really was a poorly maintained Tilly homage to Pine Valley.  Now it is a great Tilly with great bones vandalized throughout by Rees.
Craig and Garret, now at Sebonac, quietly restored the Red in the late 90's and added a few new tees.  Almost every green was expanded by a good 10% to 30% and the course was brought to life.  These days I think the Red might be equal to the Black, plus much more fun to play.

[Jim Nugent]

Robert, what do you think of the greens on the Black? 

[Ronald Montesano]

#nothreadjack   I side with Mike and Andy on the value of Bandon Trails. I could gush for years about it, while still maintaining similar feelings for the two Dunes courses I played out there.

I first saw the Black in 2002, at the Open. I saw it again in 2009 at the next Open, then in 2010 or 11, when I played all five courses during a triumphant, use-my-residency tour. The last two years, I have gone to watch a member of my high school team play there. I've grown very familiar with the course and really do think the world of it.

I've seen the Red once and loved it. Untouched by renovationists, it may be as good as Robert and others allow.

I found Mike's comment on "being a sucker for scenery" misleading; there is no scenery at Bethpage beyond the golf. Nothing along the perimeter of the course akin to an ocean, mountain range or desert. It is all about the golf, pure and simple.

If I'm a sucker for anything, it's a burn/creek that flows through a course and makes a statement on anywhere from three to five holes. I think I love Old Town for that reason. The absolute absence of subtle water at Bethpage (maybe it's a Feng Shui thing?) bothers me; I think it could replace the bunker hives on 18 and be amazing, but you can't just make a creek, can you?

Comments on the greens are very accurate, although I've not seen any mild greens, nor have I seen any that awe with internal waves; it's the size of some of them and the drop-offs around others that makes them the equal of the tee-to-green in my estimation. The bunkering catches the eye, but shouldn't catch the errant ball as often as it might.

The mistake I've seen at the Black is any dependence on primitive, penal rough. The second cut doesn't need to voraciously swallow and digest golf balls; when it does, it delays play to the extreme. It is healthy enough that 3 inches will get the job done, with the job being a forced pitch out with a short iron or wedge.

[Chris DeToro]

I played on the July 4th holiday and it was just over 4 hours which wasn't too bad.  I understand the pace of play, conditions, etc. impacting the way you may view the experience of playing a golf course, but that shouldn't have an impact on the quality of the golf course or design.  I think that distinction needs to be made. 

[Jason Thurman]

What did you shoot at The Old Course?!?

[Robert Mercer Deruntz]

Having a topographical green book from the 2009 Open, there is quite a bit more slope than appears.  However, the greens on the Red have more movement and character.  1 Red is beautifully benched into the hill with lots of internal contour.  In fact, there is wonderful contour on  the 5th, 6th, 8th, 16 - 18th greens.  In addition, there are many interesting pin positions that really use the contours well on the Red.  Contrast that with the 15th Black having been reworked into soft generic consistent slope  back tier.  There are a lot of areas where green expansion would bring the Black's greens further to life, but Rees missed the boat on that one and his bunkers cut some of these areas away on 6,7, 11,14 front, 15 front. 

[Mike Treitler]

Ronald,

That's actually what I meant when I said that.  "I am sucker for scenery" so Bethpage is #7 rather #1 because it doesn't have ocean or mountains or anything like that.  It just a pretty area with a fantastic golf course.

[Mark Fedeli]

I play Black a few times a month and while I do love the layout, the maintenance of the rough is really hard to ignore when considering the overall product.

There is quite enough length, elevation changes, trees, tall fescue, deep bunkers and even wind to make the course one of the most fair yet challenging courses in the country. But add in the narrow fairways and thick rough and you've removed much of the nuance. Many of those great long par 4's have fairways that are unnecessarily narrow, punishing all but perfect drives, and robbing many of a chance to attack the more interesting challenges.

#15 for example. It doesn't take being offline by much to miss the fairway by an inch on either side and be forced to lay-up. That fairway is very narrow when, since the second shot is already the toughest approach on the course, it should be relatively wide.

The situation is the same on #5, which can be every bit as difficult to hit/hold in two as #15, but requires an even longer, more precise drive. Or #16, where it's hard enough hitting the green from the right side of the fairway, let alone from even further right from that.

They've also buried some of the best bunkers on the course in the rough, like on the left side of #10. There is 10-20 yards of rough between the fairway and the left side bunkers. Remove that rough; subsequently bringing those glorious bunkers more into play by tempting players to aim there in order to cut off a little distance to the hole.

There's also a situation like #6, where I believe there used to be a lot more fairway on the right, short of the bunker. You'd leave yourself a very long, very blind shot to the green, but at least you could attempt it.

I don't think these suggestions necessarily make the course play easier, only the drives. In fact, many of them actually bring more trouble into play and ask the golfer do a lot more thinking about their abilities. The challenge is there regardless of the rough, but it's a shame that many who come to play it will walk away thinking challenging=thick rough/narrow fairways.

That all said, I'll be out there again on Saturday.  

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