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Michael Goldstein

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Ratings oh ratings
« on: September 30, 2014, 06:09:27 AM »
I'm sure everyone has had their frustrations with rating lists - but perhaps none more so than me in New Zealand.

Our lists, the latest of which to be announced tomorrow, generally produce absurd results.

Tomorrow Paraparaumu Beach will just scrape into the top 10 courses in the country! Having played all of the courses in New Zealand multiple times this is absolutely ludicrous. 

I can feel for course owners, designers, or even golf destinations who have more to lose when they get on the wrong end of a ratings scale.

All I can say is that for those coming down under I recommend reading GCA or talking to the right people for recommendations.  Unfortunately the majority of the market will inevitably follow ranking lists.

On the bright side, I suppose it means that it will be even easier to play a quick 2 hour rounds at PBGC or Oreti Sands.

   
@Pure_Golf

Mark Bourgeois

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Re: Ratings oh ratings
« Reply #1 on: September 30, 2014, 06:25:55 AM »
Wait you're disavowing...your own list?? Michael, that's pretty rich.

EDIT: my apologies if I have misunderstood what 'our' refers to.  :)
« Last Edit: September 30, 2014, 09:10:47 AM by Mark Bourgeois »
Charlotte. Daniel. Olivia. Josephine. Ana. Dylan. Madeleine. Catherine. Chase. Jesse. James. Grace. Emilie. Jack. Noah. Caroline. Jessica. Benjamin. Avielle. Allison.

Rees Milikin

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Ratings oh ratings
« Reply #2 on: September 30, 2014, 10:24:50 AM »
I'm sure everyone has had their frustrations with rating lists - but perhaps none more so than me in New Zealand.

Our lists, the latest of which to be announced tomorrow, generally produce absurd results.

Tomorrow Paraparaumu Beach will just scrape into the top 10 courses in the country! Having played all of the courses in New Zealand multiple times this is absolutely ludicrous. 

I can feel for course owners, designers, or even golf destinations who have more to lose when they get on the wrong end of a ratings scale.

All I can say is that for those coming down under I recommend reading GCA or talking to the right people for recommendations.  Unfortunately the majority of the market will inevitably follow ranking lists.

On the bright side, I suppose it means that it will be even easier to play a quick 2 hour rounds at PBGC or Oreti Sands.

   


That's a shame to hear and most likely wouldn't deter anyone from GCA to playing it, but to the average guy, they will most likely now pass it over.

Oreti, Cromwell, and Chisholm, Arrowtown, and Kaitaia all look really fun.  What do you think of them and their place in or not in the rankings?

David_Tepper

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Re: Ratings oh ratings
« Reply #3 on: September 30, 2014, 10:33:54 AM »
Michael G. -

For someone thinking of a golf visit to NZ, what are your favorite 5-6 courses? What 5-6 courses might offer the best value?

DT

Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +1/-1
Re: Ratings oh ratings
« Reply #4 on: September 30, 2014, 11:07:13 AM »
Yes, Michael, we would be very interested to see YOUR top ten.

For comparison, the top 10 according to early returns for The Confidential Guide:

1.  Cape Kidnappers
2.  Paraparaumu Beach
3.  Arrowtown
4t. Titirangi
4t. Kauri Cliffs

6t. Jack's Point
6t. Kinloch
8t. The Hills
8t. Kaitaia
8t. New Plymouth


Count on Tara-iti to be high on the list once it's finished [and the last hole was seeded yesterday, so it won't be long now].  None of us have seen Oreti Sands yet, but I'll have plenty of time before this volume of the book is complete.  There is also a little course called Waverly that my young associates fell in love with.

Ash Towe

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Re: Ratings oh ratings
« Reply #5 on: September 30, 2014, 02:40:01 PM »
Michael,

Who is responsible/publishing this list?

Mark Saltzman

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Re: Ratings oh ratings
« Reply #6 on: September 30, 2014, 03:05:06 PM »
Tom, have any seen the 'new' Royal Wellington? It's quite good.

Mark Saltzman

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Re: Ratings oh ratings
« Reply #7 on: September 30, 2014, 03:22:31 PM »
Hardly an expert on NZ golf, but my list:

1. Paraparam
2. Cape K
3. Titirangi
4. Royal Wellington
4b. Arrowtown
5. Jack's Point
6. Kinloch
7. Millbrook
8. The Hills
9. Wairakei
10. Rotorua

That's all I played.

Mike_Clayton

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Ratings oh ratings
« Reply #8 on: September 30, 2014, 04:43:32 PM »
Mike

No doubt Arrowtown won't be in the top 20 - and be behind Formosa,Gulf Harbour,Millbrook and Clearwater.
Presumably none of them are above Paraparaumu?
Spare us of if even one of them is.

Grant Saunders

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Re: Ratings oh ratings
« Reply #9 on: September 30, 2014, 05:49:54 PM »

Arrowtown
Oreti Sands
Paraparaumu Beach
Hamilton Golf Club
Jacks Point
Titirangi
Cromwell
Harewood
Millbrook (the new work)
Waihi

Honourable mention:

Manawatu
Mangakino

Here is a list I came up with a while back. I call I my "NZ Golf Experience" list. It is based on courses that I have myself played and feel they would give a visiting golfer a good feel for playing golf in New Zealand.

While I haven't played some of the courses that seem to feature in the rankings these days, Im not so sure I would include them anyhow a I don't believe they reflect our countries golf culture.

Dane Hawker

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Re: Ratings oh ratings
« Reply #10 on: September 30, 2014, 07:37:47 PM »
I am shocked Arrowtown was ranked so low. Its strange that Hills and Jacks were rated by most but not Arrowtown. So disapointing for the little gem.





Mark Pavy

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Re: Ratings oh ratings
« Reply #11 on: September 30, 2014, 08:30:31 PM »
I'm with you Michael, I'm over lists. I would be curious how the list you mention was formulated- criteria and voter numbers.

Anyone here played in the local "shroom" day at Ahipara (kaitaia)? I believe the record is 6 holes!

Rees Milikin

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Ratings oh ratings
« Reply #12 on: September 30, 2014, 09:30:54 PM »
Is Chisholm Park in Dunedin any good b/c it looks like a decent links course.

Rees Milikin

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Ratings oh ratings
« Reply #13 on: September 30, 2014, 10:44:04 PM »
Yes, Michael, we would be very interested to see YOUR top ten.

For comparison, the top 10 according to early returns for The Confidential Guide:

1.  Cape Kidnappers
2.  Paraparaumu Beach
3.  Arrowtown
4t. Titirangi
4t. Kauri Cliffs

6t. Jack's Point
6t. Kinloch
8t. The Hills
8t. Kaitaia
8t. New Plymouth


Count on Tara-iti to be high on the list once it's finished [and the last hole was seeded yesterday, so it won't be long now].  None of us have seen Oreti Sands yet, but I'll have plenty of time before this volume of the book is complete.  There is also a little course called Waverly that my young associates fell in love with.

Is this the Waverly course you are referencing (155 Ihupuku Rd)?  This looks very interesting and fun and I haven't seen much about it here on GCA.
https://www.google.com/maps/@-39.7850341,174.614632,3a,75y,40.04h,91.17t/data=!3m4!1e1!3m2!1s56I36BPNp4Iknk1KGqaywg!2e0

Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +1/-1
Re: Ratings oh ratings
« Reply #14 on: September 30, 2014, 10:54:00 PM »
Rees:

I liked Chisholm Park.  It's not a gem like Arrowtown, but there were plenty of cool features.  It's very short, and it was in pretty bad shape when I saw it ten years ago, about what you'd expect for a $15 municipal course.

Your link for Waverly is correct, it's down near Taranaki.  You would not have seen much about it as Michael G. is probably the only person on GCA to have visited it.  My associate Brian Schneider played it when we were building Cape Kidnappers, and our construction crew at Tara-iti all think it's the best "country" course they have seen in the north island.  It is a very unpretentious place, honesty box and all.

Clyde Johnson

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Re: Ratings oh ratings
« Reply #15 on: October 01, 2014, 03:06:52 AM »
NZ may be the most difficult country in the world for ordering/ranking golf courses. There is a clear distinction between the very small number of top tier courses, modern resort-style courses, reasonably maintained but often dull ‘provincial’ courses and ‘country’-style courses. Working out how these overlap is the tricky part!

I’ll throw in my top ten – a hybrid of ‘design quality’ and of where I’d most like to play again  – from the 50 or so courses I have bothered to check out on the North Island:

1. Cape Kidnappers
2. Paraparamu Beach
3. Waverley (At the risk of sounding stupid, a genius routing over rippled and hilly terrain - I must get back in the summer months, the place looks awesome when burnt out.)
4. Titirangi
5. Kaitaia (Let down by some rank holes in the middle of the property and warm season grasses – There are plenty of dunes to the north to fix that!)
6. Ohope (The land at Whakatane up the road may be better, but sat closer to the water on a spit and with short fours like the third and sixteenth this wins easily.)
7. Waipu (Built on the same coastline as Tara’Iti, this place has some potential and offers a different view of the ‘Hen and Chickens’ off the coast.)
8. Kinloch (A pretty quirky number and an array of split fairway holes - A much better effort than the only other one of Jack’s that I have seen in Nebraska.)
9. Waitara (Go straight to the back nine, and include the second, the stretch from eleven to seventeen is cracking with the fifteenth being the pick of the lot! The rest is better served for grazing or crop production.)
10. Wanganui (Easily the best provincial course for my money, and they were talking of building another nine over some interesting land.)


It is quite remarkable how many of NZ’s courses sit right next to some good-to-great land and/or views, mostly on flattish paddock and more resembling of an arboretum! Having said that most courses usually have at least one redeeming to ‘cool’ hole going for them, and more often than not it is the only/best way to differentiate.

[Tom, Have you seen New Plymouth (Ngamatu)? Outside of the beautifully sited thirteenth and fourteenth and the views of the volcano I can’t see the fuss – I’d have Fitzroy as the town’s best!]


David Davis

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Ratings oh ratings
« Reply #16 on: October 01, 2014, 03:21:34 AM »
Michael,

As you know it will be on my hit list for certain when I return to NZ to golf. What is it about PB that you think these raters don't like as much as some of the others (not having seen it besides the awesome photos online)? Too natural, too raw, too difficult, not enough flat lies?

I'm guessing you know (and of course disagree which is fine) the criticisms. If you and Tom and others both have it on top then you guys must be able to assume what the others are missing.

Hope all is well,

David
Sharing the greatest experiences in golf.

IG: @top100golftraveler
www.lockharttravelclub.com

Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +1/-1
Re: Ratings oh ratings
« Reply #17 on: October 01, 2014, 08:31:59 AM »
NZ may be the most difficult country in the world for ordering/ranking golf courses. There is a clear distinction between the very small number of top tier courses, modern resort-style courses, reasonably maintained but often dull ‘provincial’ courses and ‘country’-style courses. Working out how these overlap is the tricky part!

I’ll throw in my top ten – a hybrid of ‘design quality’ and of where I’d most like to play again  – from the 50 or so courses I have bothered to check out on the North Island:

1. Cape Kidnappers
2. Paraparamu Beach
3. Waverley (At the risk of sounding stupid, a genius routing over rippled and hilly terrain - I must get back in the summer months, the place looks awesome when burnt out.)
4. Titirangi
5. Kaitaia (Let down by some rank holes in the middle of the property and warm season grasses – There are plenty of dunes to the north to fix that!)
6. Ohope (The land at Whakatane up the road may be better, but sat closer to the water on a spit and with short fours like the third and sixteenth this wins easily.)
7. Waipu (Built on the same coastline as Tara’Iti, this place has some potential and offers a different view of the ‘Hen and Chickens’ off the coast.)
8. Kinloch (A pretty quirky number and an array of split fairway holes - A much better effort than the only other one of Jack’s that I have seen in Nebraska.)
9. Waitara (Go straight to the back nine, and include the second, the stretch from eleven to seventeen is cracking with the fifteenth being the pick of the lot! The rest is better served for grazing or crop production.)
10. Wanganui (Easily the best provincial course for my money, and they were talking of building another nine over some interesting land.)


It is quite remarkable how many of NZ’s courses sit right next to some good-to-great land and/or views, mostly on flattish paddock and more resembling of an arboretum! Having said that most courses usually have at least one redeeming to ‘cool’ hole going for them, and more often than not it is the only/best way to differentiate.

[Tom, Have you seen New Plymouth (Ngamatu)? Outside of the beautifully sited thirteenth and fourteenth and the views of the volcano I can’t see the fuss – I’d have Fitzroy as the town’s best!]



Clyde:

I have not seen New Plymouth, its place on my list was based on someone else's vote.  I did see Ohope, so I am wary of the courses you ranked below it, I thought it was pretty disappointing considering the ground.

Michael Goldstein

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Ratings oh ratings
« Reply #18 on: October 01, 2014, 09:38:42 AM »
Thanks for the comments.  I've been playing cricket (and navigating through the demonstrations here) and have just seen the responses.

I had no input into the latest ranking list or any other list in NZ.  It was done by many colleagues in the NZ Golf industry including a number of professional golfers. 

Clyde - your comments about the difficulty in rating course in New Zealand are very accurate.  For example, The Hills has over 20 greenskeepers and the green fee is north of $500 whilst Oreti Sands has 1 and I paid 230 for an annual membership. 

I have not been to Waverley or Waitara (!!).  Leo has been raving about them and after reading this thread (and that photograph - wow) both courses are right at the top of my must see lists. 

Tom, I don't see any upside in publishing my rankings list here for reasons you can probably understand. 

The courses where I'd be really excited about playing if I had the chance tomorrow would be:

Kaitaia
Tara Iti (the few holes that are ready)
Titirangi
Mahia
Cape Kidnappers
Paraparaumu Beach
Royal Wellington
Arrowtown
Oreti Sands

Until May I was part of the Tourism advisory board and the courses that are being promoted by Tourism NZ as 'tier one courses'  are Kauri Cliffs, Titirangi, Gulf Harbour, Kinloch, Wairakei, Cape Kidnappers, Paraparaumu Beach, Royal Wellington, Clearwater, Jack's Point, The Hills, Millbrook
Resort.   Those courses were chosen for a variety of reasons which I won't go into here!

 


@Pure_Golf

Dane Hawker

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Re: Ratings oh ratings
« Reply #19 on: October 02, 2014, 05:17:02 PM »
I believe the issue is because of the lack of raters. Only 22 is a shame.
The list looks like it was mostly the Pro's. \
Isnt it strange that  only 8 of the 22 ranked Arrowtown yet 19/22 ranked The Hills which is 2 mins away.
Michael were you ever approached to be a ranker?




Michael Goldstein

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Ratings oh ratings
« Reply #20 on: October 02, 2014, 08:28:57 PM »
Dane, of course but I declined as don't want to be associated with a ranking list that produces perverse results like this.

Last year there were 50+ responses and Wairakei was top.

Andrew has tried to reduce the number of raters but until he gets a group of about a dozen guys who understand what they're talking about the results will not be perfect.

@Pure_Golf

Scott Macpherson

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Re: Ratings oh ratings
« Reply #21 on: October 03, 2014, 04:35:05 AM »
Hi Michael,

Can you post the new NZ rankings when you have them please. Thanks.

As regards PBGC dropping down the rankings, I can imagine that it would. The country has seen a lot of new courses come to the country and some are better. Like you, I am a fan of PBGC, I grew up playing there, and credit it for getting into the golf industry, but it is not the championship test now that it was in the past. It is a Top 10 course though, and the number 1 links in the land.

Michael – I'd be interested on your thoughts about the changes at the old Hutt Golf Club. When does the course re-open?

Grant, you have a good sense for golf courses – I would be interested in your thoughts on Royal Wellington.

Tom D, having briefly seen Tara-Iti during construction, I imagine that it will move into the top 10. Glad you will make the trip to the raw and rugged Oreti Sands. I know you tried once before but ran out of time. Are you planning on a visit to Royal Wellington sometime?

Scott

Clyde Johnson

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Re: Ratings oh ratings
« Reply #22 on: October 03, 2014, 04:49:02 AM »
Here you go Scott (with a detailed breakdown of scores for each category):

http://www.golfindustrycentral.com.au/news__/view-news.php?cat=5&url=http://www.pga.org.nz/content/docs/education/NEW%20ZEALAND%20GOLF%20RANKINGS%20RESULTS%202014.pdf

I must try and catch Royal Wellington in the upcoming weeks, with maybe Manawatu (which I didn't realize was so hardly regarded) on the drive down from up North.

I would be interested to know which of these new courses you have ahead of Paraparamu?

Grant Saunders

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Re: Ratings oh ratings
« Reply #23 on: October 03, 2014, 01:43:35 PM »
Hey Scott, hope you are keeping well.

I havent seen enough of Royal Wellington yet to really get a good feel for the course. I had not seen it prior to the redevelopment and have only seen a handful of holes during construction which wasn't enough to form an opinion. I have heard various reports from different places with some being incredibly supportive and others that are most likely a product of the traditional NZ views on golf. What I did see of the work showed a boldness of scale and movement which I do tend to like personally but I can also understand how some people may find that at a very different end of their enjoyment spectrum. It certainly is on my radar as a course I need to play but it may be a little while until I get up that way.


Andrew has tried to reduce the number of raters but until he gets a group of about a dozen guys who understand what they're talking about the results will not be perfect.


Michael

Im not so sure I agree with the idea that less people will produce better rankings. I can imagine they may produce a list probably more in line with what we appreciate in golf courses but I think fewer numbers are likely to show stronger bias in some areas.

For me, I would rather see it opened up completely to anyone who wants to vote and just have a list of peoples favourite golf courses they have played. That is going to take into account factors like memorability, ambience, conditioning, aesthetics etc because the voter enjoyed it. All those categories have made an impact to the experience which is why the person rates it. I just think NZ is too hard to really get a clear ranking due to the diversity of our courses and the experience of playing them.

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