News:

This discussion group is best enjoyed using Google Chrome, Firefox or Safari.


Ally Mcintosh

  • Karma: +0/-0
CARLOW GC - Classic Design in the Irish midlands - PHOTO tour
« on: September 29, 2014, 04:13:25 AM »
For those who need a synopsis to decide whether they have an interest in reading on, I’ll give you this: Tom Doak gave the course a 3 in The Confidential Guide first time around….

…For those who are still with us, I think he was wrong and that this is the finest inland course in Ireland, south of the border anyway…. Or at least the bones of it is. For in Carlow, we have the all too familiar problems of tree planting and greens that have shrunk and been softened.

This course has serious design pedigree, being a Hawtree (F.G.) and Taylor design in 1926 that was remodelled in 1937 by Tom Simpson. It was built on lovely topography on perfect, sandy soil. Whilst I’m not sure we can call it heath (there is no heather), in the open parts of the course it has that wonderful, prairie like feel of native grasses and vegetation. It is ideal golfing country. I’ve yet to track down old photos and so I’m not sure what Simpson added in the detail. He did make various routing changes and those included the introduction of the superlative par-threes at the 6th and 17th… As a set of four, the par-threes are fantastic…



Carlow plays to a very difficult 6,700 yard Par-70 and is host to the midland scratch tournament which has a long history with such noted names as Cecil Ewing, Joe Carr and Peter McEvoy having won it on numerous occasions between them. The tree planting I’m sure came about because the club were trying to tighten up playing lines, worried that the course was going to become too easy for such a big competition (some chance – this is a serious test). It really was misguided and we have clumps of deciduous trees at driving distances to pinch fairways… The last few years have seen a little clearance and a few trees knocked with last winter’s storms… Let us hope they continue in the same direction… The green sites are fantastic but even looking where the pop-ups are placed, it’s clear they have shrunk in recent years (they really are very small making the course even more difficult). It also appears to me that sometime in the further past, some of the greens have been built off the natural grade to reduce slopes and undulation. They are all native soil, push-up constructions. There is definite potential in this area.

The club have little money. They have lost membership and being a distance off the main road south-west, they get few touring golfers stopping on their way to the coast. A new motorway has now been built however (the M9) meaning that the course is only 25 minutes from the main Dublin to Limerick (South-West) road. In this respect, I’d recommend a stop for interested GCA’ers…

The opening hole is a long and excellent par-four with a slightly blind drive.... The second is a short par-four that would have been drivable (290 yards). Here you can see where trees have been planted to tighten up the entrance. In this case, it actually works but it is the green site with a bunker eating in to the back centre that would have always been the tricky part of the hole:



The third hole is a very good par three over broken ground and then the fourth is a par-four with the drive over the plains and the second shot up a significant hill to a severely tilted green. Here you can again see where trees have been planted at driving distance. If the trees on the left were cleared, it would give the native grasses on the hill as a more pleasant and authentic backdrop:



Looking back from behind the 4th green:



The fifth is a cracking par-five rollercoaster over undulating ground with a tricky left to right tee shot on a slightly reverse camber fairway :



This photo shows the ground movement as approaching the drive. The second is blind unless you get over the far ridge (a long tee shot):



The green sits in a hidden dell, punchbowl like. This pad has been built up on both sides. I imagine this was a great green with lots of movement at one point when the front tied in to its surrounds. The 15th green is in the background:



We now move in to the more open part of the course with one of the stars, the Simpson designed par three 6th hole. This plays over land that moves much more than is evident from the photo to an exquisite green site. From the tee:



And looking back at the hole from the 17th tee:



The 7th is an incredibly tough par-4 dogleg to the left. A world class hole that has been muted somewhat by extra tree planting, as can be seen on this photo from the tee:



But you get a better idea of the greatness of this hole from the photo below which shows the approach... and the one after which shows the hole from behind the green:





The eight hole is maybe the most photographed, a straightaway par-four where you open the shoulders and watch the ball soar far below. Again, muted by tree planting at the driving distance. But a thrilling tee shot. I was told you could see seven counties from this point. The third green sits behind the 8th in the distance:



9th returns to the clubhouse via a dogleg right. A small green that may (or may not) have been doubled with the 18th at some point. Here's the approach and then looking back over the subtle ground contours:





The 10th is a short, drivable par-4, a little out of character and more modern in flavour. The safer tee-shot leaves you with this approach:



The 11th is a straightaway par-4 up the hill... Nice bunkering before the green and a nice green site that really should be a little more skyline... Tree planting ruined the aesthetic on this hole as well:



Now this is more like it. The drive on the 12th is semi-blind over the crest of a hill. The approach is first rate to an angled green over a dip from the left. Drive right and you can bump one in along the crest of the ridge. Top quality and an idea of what Carlow could be with some help. Incidentally, the ground game is in full swing at Carlow:



The 13th is another excellent par-three. Cross-slope returning on the other side of that ridge we just approached the 12th from. Another good green site:



And the 14th is perhaps the toughest two shotter on the course. A very attractive tee shot to the crux of a sharpish dogleg left with the fairway pushing you right. You are left with this long approach:



Note the way the green is a little bit of an upturned saucer. Difficult to hold with some serious run-offs, especially left. Here is the left side of the green as seen from the 6th tee:



The 15th is an attractive drive and pitch hole in to the corner of the property:



And then the 16th and 17th can be best described as two of the best holes in Ireland, the former a beautiful, long par-four over cracking ground to the green site in the distance. Please get rid of those trees at driving distance though:



And Simpson's 17th being a 150 yard nob to nob par-three to a small green, beautifully bunkered and with a run-off to the back. Treacherous:



We finish with a dramatic tee-shot from the same hill as the 8th. A par-five sweeping left to an excellent finishing green in front of the clubhouse. More tree planting gone astray here but a larger green that shows the potential of what the rest of the course could be:



It had been a few years since I visited Carlow and it is clear to me that the course could do with some loving design attention. But the skeleton of this course really is a cracker. It was playing firm, browned out, better than most heathlands in turf quality. If an astute GCA'er is willing to try something different on their way to ticking off the big names on the coast, it is now not too far off the beaten path... Jump in and give it a try.


« Last Edit: September 29, 2014, 01:06:09 PM by Ally Mcintosh »

Thomas Dai

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: CARLOW GC - Classic Design in the Irish midlands - PHOTO tour
« Reply #1 on: September 29, 2014, 05:01:14 AM »
Nice to see an insight into Irish golf that isn't links or big-name/big-money modern ventures.

Some fine looking and thought provoking holes. Much of the land seems to flow and roll beautifully, reminds me of Perthshire or Angus. Do you have any photos of the par-3's from different angles that you could also post?

atb

Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +1/-1
Re: CARLOW GC - Classic Design in the Irish midlands - PHOTO tour
« Reply #2 on: September 29, 2014, 06:47:36 AM »
Ally:

I bumped the course to a 4 this time around.  If I'd seen your photo tour, it might have been a 5, but I didn't have any help here as none of the co-authors have visited the course, so we were still going by my one visit in 1982.

I hope that you offered them some free design advice regarding all the trees ... that aspect of the course has certainly taken it backwards from where it was 30 years ago.

It looks very hilly in your photos, and photos usually don't do the hills justice; is it a difficult walk?

Bill_McBride

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: CARLOW GC - Classic Design in the Irish midlands - PHOTO tour
« Reply #3 on: September 29, 2014, 07:26:43 AM »
Looks a lot more interesting than the Centenary Course at Gleneagles!   Agree those par 3s look very good.  Start the chain saws!

David_Tepper

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: CARLOW GC - Classic Design in the Irish midlands - PHOTO tour
« Reply #4 on: September 29, 2014, 09:12:06 AM »
Ally -

I played Carlow 30 years ago. Thanks for the memories.

DT

Frank Pont

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: CARLOW GC - Classic Design in the Irish midlands - PHOTO tour
« Reply #5 on: September 29, 2014, 09:25:18 AM »
Ally, great tour!

Any idea what Simpson exactly did in 1937? Did he design the par 3 holes?

Also any old pics of the bunkering? Would they have been more in Simpson's style?
Given that 1937 was just before WWII there might be old aerials of just after WWII with the course on it.....

Padraig Dooley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: CARLOW GC - Classic Design in the Irish midlands - PHOTO tour
« Reply #6 on: September 29, 2014, 04:46:50 PM »
Ally, Great photo tour.

The highlights of Carlow are the fantastic per threes, all play across little valleys, also the routing is excellent uses the topography wonderfully.

The last time I played it, there seemed to be some tree removal from previous times and recall more being discussed.

PS, Cecil Ewing, Joe Carr and Peter McEvoy are not the only noted names to win the Scratch Cup there!
There are painters who transform the sun to a yellow spot, but there are others who with the help of their art and their intelligence, transform a yellow spot into the sun.
  - Pablo Picasso

Bill_McBride

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: CARLOW GC - Classic Design in the Irish midlands - PHOTO tour
« Reply #7 on: September 29, 2014, 04:56:06 PM »
Ally, Great photo tour.

The highlights of Carlow are the fantastic per threes, all play across little valleys, also the routing is excellent uses the topography wonderfully.

The last time I played it, there seemed to be some tree removal from previous times and recall more being discussed.

PS, Cecil Ewing, Joe Carr and Peter McEvoy are not the only noted names to win the Scratch Cup there!

Let me guess........... Mr. Dooley?   ;D

Padraig Dooley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: CARLOW GC - Classic Design in the Irish midlands - PHOTO tour
« Reply #8 on: September 29, 2014, 05:23:19 PM »
Ally, Great photo tour.

The highlights of Carlow are the fantastic per threes, all play across little valleys, also the routing is excellent uses the topography wonderfully.

The last time I played it, there seemed to be some tree removal from previous times and recall more being discussed.

PS, Cecil Ewing, Joe Carr and Peter McEvoy are not the only noted names to win the Scratch Cup there!

Let me guess........... Mr. Dooley?   ;D

Mr.Harrington's name appears on the list of winners and also yours truly back in 1998!
There are painters who transform the sun to a yellow spot, but there are others who with the help of their art and their intelligence, transform a yellow spot into the sun.
  - Pablo Picasso

jeffwarne

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: CARLOW GC - Classic Design in the Irish midlands - PHOTO tour
« Reply #9 on: September 29, 2014, 10:07:07 PM »
Ally, Great photo tour.

The highlights of Carlow are the fantastic per threes, all play across little valleys, also the routing is excellent uses the topography wonderfully.

The last time I played it, there seemed to be some tree removal from previous times and recall more being discussed.

PS, Cecil Ewing, Joe Carr and Peter McEvoy are not the only noted names to win the Scratch Cup there!

I played Carlow 23 years ago.
I remember calling up trying to play on a Saturday as a two ball which I knew was a long shot
The pro explained to me how they had a HUGE competition on and it was a terrible weekend and could I come another day.
As I was politely thanking him for trying he suddenly interjected "I could perhaps get you out VERY early on Saturday"
i said whatever you need-just tell me the time.
"Could you come out perhaps as early as 9 o'clock?"

I don't remember Carlow all that well but a 4 seems close-maybe 5.
I'd say I preferred it slightly to Cork.

and Brian, I rather enjoyed Mt. Juliet which I played on the same trip as Carlow
"Let's slow the damned greens down a bit, not take the character out of them." Tom Doak
"Take their focus off the grass and put it squarely on interesting golf." Don Mahaffey

David_Tepper

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: CARLOW GC - Classic Design in the Irish midlands - PHOTO tour
« Reply #10 on: September 29, 2014, 10:48:41 PM »
As I was politely thanking him for trying he suddenly interjected "I could perhaps get you out VERY early on Saturday"
i said whatever you need-just tell me the time.
"Could you come out perhaps as early as 9 o'clock?"


Jeff -

That reminds me of my experience at Carlow in 1984! I arrived unannounced around 7:30-7:45am on a Saturday morning, figuring the place would be a bee hive of activity (like any course in the U.S. would be at that time on a Saturday).

I was the 2nd car in the parking lot. The first car belonged to the club secretary, who was just unlocking the clubhouse! He told me to go out and play the course by myself and pay the green fee at the end of my round.

That is when I realized golf, and life, was just a little bit different in Ireland than it was in the U.S. of A.

DT 

Shane Wright

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: CARLOW GC - Classic Design in the Irish midlands - PHOTO tour
« Reply #11 on: September 30, 2014, 09:51:20 AM »
Ally,

Thank you for this photo tour.  It is a course I had not heard of yet and after your introduction, I will make a point of getting there on one of my next trips to Ireland.  Putting it up there with Cork is saying something.  It looks like a fun place to spend a day.  I'm also interested in hearing your response to its walkability.

Thanks Ally,

Shane

David_Tepper

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: CARLOW GC - Classic Design in the Irish midlands - PHOTO tour
« Reply #12 on: September 30, 2014, 10:03:15 AM »
Shane -

While I played it 30 years ago, I don't recall any problems walking Carlow at all.

DT

Shane Wright

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: CARLOW GC - Classic Design in the Irish midlands - PHOTO tour
« Reply #13 on: September 30, 2014, 10:10:36 AM »
Thanks DT.  I look forward to playing Carlow.

Mark_Rowlinson

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: CARLOW GC - Classic Design in the Irish midlands - PHOTO tour
« Reply #14 on: September 30, 2014, 10:44:36 AM »
Thank you for the informative photo tour. It prompted me to look up 'Great Golf Courses of Ireland' by John Redmond (Gill and Macmillan, Dublin, 1992). So the photos therein must be at least 20 years old, and they show it much less densely treed, more open, with expansive views. There are plenty of saplings and young trees and twenty years of Irish rains have clearly caused them to flourish. I'm afraid the photos do not reveal anything worthwhile of Simpon's bunkering.

To the roll call of Champions add Christy O'Connor Senior who won the Irish Professional Championship in 1975 and Mick Morris, Irish Amateur Championship 1977.

In fact this post has caused me to look also at the book's entries for Belvoir Park, Grange, Hermitage, Mullingar and Royal Belfast - those fascinating courses of former repute now sailing along under the radar. I still have relations in Ireland. I think I ought to go back to visit them before long.

Tim_Weiman

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: CARLOW GC - Classic Design in the Irish midlands - PHOTO tour
« Reply #15 on: September 30, 2014, 01:10:57 PM »
Ally,

I don't know. Never seen the course, but none of my Irish friends ever told me I need to. Looks a bit like one of many Mom and Pops in Northeast Ohio nobody would ever discuss here.
Tim Weiman

Tony_Muldoon

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: CARLOW GC - Classic Design in the Irish midlands - PHOTO tour
« Reply #16 on: September 30, 2014, 03:55:04 PM »
Ally this is what GCA does best, just when I thought there was nothing interesting that wasn't already in plain sight.
IS there any course it reminds you of, there's a lot of variety in the terrain?



Sadly my friend from Kilcullen has had to emigrate for carear reasons for the second time. Money is tight and joining a golf club is well down many people's priorities.    This would have made a great day out but it will have to wait.


Hawtree have a fine record in Ireland over the years. Has anyone palyed Malone ,I have a standing invite to play there?
Let's make GCA grate again!

Padraig Dooley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: CARLOW GC - Classic Design in the Irish midlands - PHOTO tour
« Reply #17 on: September 30, 2014, 06:21:15 PM »
Ally,

I don't know. Never seen the course, but none of my Irish friends ever told me I need to. Looks a bit like one of many Mom and Pops in Northeast Ohio nobody would ever discuss here.

Tim, twenty years ago Carlow would always been on Irish Golfers' lists of courses to play, but in the last 20 years it would have been pushed down the list by the more high profile developments, however it remains an absolute joy to play through wonderful terrain, great turf and an a wonderful assortment of challenges presented to the golfer. Of much greater interest then most of the new developments.
There are painters who transform the sun to a yellow spot, but there are others who with the help of their art and their intelligence, transform a yellow spot into the sun.
  - Pablo Picasso

Ally Mcintosh

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: CARLOW GC - Classic Design in the Irish midlands - PHOTO tour
« Reply #18 on: October 01, 2014, 04:19:18 AM »
Apologies for only getting back to this thread now….

Tom: the course is routed very well and this makes it an easy walk, comparative to St Georges Hill, less strenuous than Royal Ashdown Forest. In essence – though it never feels as simple as this - there is one hill which houses the 7th, 11th, 12th and 16th  greens near the peak as well as the entire 17th hole… The main climb on the front nine is the second half of the 4th and 7th holes and on the back nine the 11th hole and the 16th hole which plays up the back side of the hill once you’ve descended slightly round the dogleg 14th. It is excellent land and the variety of holes is great, using all the main features of the topography, changing direction constantly and mixing up side-slope, uphill and downhill holes, as well as those on the flats.

The club has little to no money for capital projects so I have no intention – at least in the short term – to try and persuade them to spend money they don’t have, even if I do believe there could be significant improvement to the course. Still, if they will listen to me, I’ll suggest that they have a quick – and no cost – fix with extending the greens a few yards to the current sprinkler head positions on the existing pads. After that, it is trying to get them to see the light with regards to vegetation clearing. In general, this is a new phenomenon with Irish inland courses who en masse, have been obsessive with tree planting over the past few decades. If they embraced these ideas, then at some point in the future, I believe it is worth them looking at altering / restoring some of the greens which have clearly been built up in places at some point. Depending on the soil profile of the surrounds, this could be a relatively inexpensive task and can be done just on the three or four greens where the initial character has been lost most. Finally, sometime down the line, a bunker renovation would be a big improvement but that really does cost a bit of money…. If they just tackled the trees and extended the greens on the current pads, that would be a massive gain for them in my opinion.

Frank: I haven’t spent any time tracking down old photos. There is an old routing map in the clubhouse that identified what has changed from the Hawtree & Taylor course. From that I could surmise that Simpson routed the par threes at 6 and 17. But I have no idea if he completely overhauled the course in terms of green and bunker design. I’ll ask the club about this because it will also be the best way to show the landscape pre-trees.

Mark & Shane: I must look out for that older edition of the John Redmond book. Carlow and Cork probably sit as the two best traditional inland courses in Ireland, a large step ahead of Mullingar and Hermitage and Grange that you also mentioned Mark. A real outlier that I’d recommend is Portumna which is on beautifully undulating terrain through an open park, deer et al… I STILL haven’t seen the trio of Malone, Belvoir Park & Royal Belfast though – I suspect I would find much to like with those three and really should make that trip soon.

Tim: As Padraig says, Carlow would have been high on any knowledgeable Irish golfer’s list two or three decades ago. It may not look much from the photos but I think you have been suckered by the window dressing (i.e. the trees and mundane bunker styles). Also that undulations are flattened out a little in the photos as Tom suggests. The bones of a great course is there, one that could hold its head high with some of the Surrey heathlands with a proper bit of attention. I’m glad to see Tom bump it up to a 4 in the latest Confidential Guide. I think it is worth a 5 alongside Cork and Malone. It is capable of a 6 quite easily with a bit of work done on it.

The main reason I did this thread was because I am painfully aware that there is a gulf in the quality of Irish courses on the seaside compared to those inland. The Irish midlands isn’t blessed with the same ideal topography, soil and design history that inland sites in England and to a lesser extent Scotland have. There are not many gems like those Sean Arble can seemingly pull out of his hat at will on his English travels. Carlow is one of them though so I thought it worth highlighting. With the new motorway, it is now only 55 minutes from Dublin Airport.
« Last Edit: October 01, 2014, 04:24:19 AM by Ally Mcintosh »

Ally Mcintosh

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: CARLOW GC - Classic Design in the Irish midlands - PHOTO tour
« Reply #19 on: October 04, 2014, 08:40:08 AM »
Thinking back on the course, I've just realised that only one hole has a fairway bunker (the 10th which I bet is a modern addition given its style).

I know Simpson was against using too many fairway bunkers and in general I agree. But in this case, I would be very sure that the lack of fairway bunkering played a large part in the decisions by future generations to pinch the driving zones with clusters of trees.

Peter Pallotta

Re: CARLOW GC - Classic Design in the Irish midlands - PHOTO tour
« Reply #20 on: October 04, 2014, 09:24:25 AM »
Ally - thanks much. I never get tired of reading about (and vicariously 'playing') these inland GB&I courses. The rolling topography, and what the architects of the day did with that topography (cambered fairways, greens tucked behind this mound and that and draped gently over the land), with so little seeming forced, so little even appearing 'designed' -- well, that's all that this golfer needs...and in truth, I think it's what any reasonable fellow would ever reasonably need in a golf course.

Peter

Sean_A

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: CARLOW GC - Classic Design in the Irish midlands - PHOTO tour
« Reply #21 on: October 04, 2014, 09:29:53 AM »
Ally

Thanks for the tour.  The course looks very interesting, especially the uphill holes. Are there any reverse leggers?

Brian - I was thinking Carlow looks more interesting than Cork...just from pix.

Ciao
« Last Edit: June 24, 2018, 04:28:15 AM by Sean_A »
New plays planned for 2024: Fraserburgh, Turnberry, Isle of Harris, Benbecula, Askernish, Traigh, St Medan, Hankley Common, Ashridge, Gog Magog Old & Cruden Bay St Olaf

Thomas Dai

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: CARLOW GC - Classic Design in the Irish midlands - PHOTO tour
« Reply #22 on: October 04, 2014, 11:39:40 AM »
Which would be other older Irish inland courses of note, ie not modern generation big-name/big-money/resort ventures?
atb


David_Tepper

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: CARLOW GC - Classic Design in the Irish midlands - PHOTO tour
« Reply #23 on: October 04, 2014, 11:57:41 AM »
Thomas D. -

The two courses at Killarney are certainly worth playing. The composite of those two courses did host the Irish Open going back 20 or so years.

DT

Ally Mcintosh

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: CARLOW GC - Classic Design in the Irish midlands - PHOTO tour
« Reply #24 on: October 06, 2014, 04:38:27 AM »
Ally

Thanks for the tour.  The course looks very interesting, especially the uphill holes.   tis

Are there any reverse leggers?

Brian - I was thinking Carlow looks more interesting than Cork...just from pix.

Ciao

Sean, I presume by "reverse leggers" you mean reverse cambered fairways?

If so, there are three examples at Carlow which appear to be reverse cambered (in playing around a hill) but are actually fairly level in the landing zones: The 5th, 7th and 14th. Nevertheless, they are excellent examples of a gentle reverse camber.

I am a supporter of these kind of holes - I like the way they play strategically and the way they often sit in on the land - but there is a point of severity beyond which they don't work very well at all. In my opinion, if the dogleg is quite severe, the landing zone has to be relatively flat. If the fairway slopes away significantly, the dogleg has to be fairly gentle.

Carlow's ones all work very well indeed.

Ally

Tags:
Tags:

An Error Has Occurred!

Call to undefined function theme_linktree()
Back