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Angela Moser

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100 Best European Golf Courses by Golf Journal Germany
« on: September 18, 2014, 03:38:14 AM »
Good morning everybody,

Please don't turn this into pieces!
Three questions to answer (and please stay calm!!!):

1- How do you like this ranking of the 100 best European Courses issued by Golf Journal (Germany)?
http://www.golfjournal.de/travel/plaetze/die-100-besten-golfplaetze-europas/?no_cache=1&cid=5429&did=2942&sechash=55e4b229

Obviously something went wrong when Rye (96) and TOC (30) are ranked so poorly and behind far less interesting (but maybe spectacular looking - no names here) courses. Germany is not as far along with its interest in GCA as America is.

2- What do you think went wrong in their ranking?

3- What do you think is the right way to raise awareness of GCA in Germany?

Thanks for your thoughts!

Greg Gilson

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Re: 100 Best European Golf Courses by Golf Journal Germany
« Reply #1 on: September 18, 2014, 03:53:04 AM »
Hi Angela, its certainly an interesting list. Before getting into lots of hand-wringing, can you let us know what the criteria were? There is an index for each course so, presumably, there were several criteria where each course was allocated points. That may explain some of the surprises. Also, do you know how many judges were involved (a small number could explain some surprises) and what their backgrounds were?

Thanks for sharing!

Ally Mcintosh

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Re: 100 Best European Golf Courses by Golf Journal Germany
« Reply #2 on: September 18, 2014, 03:54:52 AM »
I think the Top-6 is an excellent choice....

Adam Lawrence

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Re: 100 Best European Golf Courses by Golf Journal Germany
« Reply #3 on: September 18, 2014, 04:45:52 AM »
I haven't been to Adamstal, but it is highly rated in a number of surveys. From photos, it is very spectacular and beautiful - irrespective of its architectural merits it is the sort of course you could see people rating highly for that alone.
Adam Lawrence

Editor, Golf Course Architecture
www.golfcoursearchitecture.net

Principal, Oxford Golf Consulting
www.oxfordgolfconsulting.com

Author, 'More Enduring Than Brass: a biography of Harry Colt' (forthcoming).

Short words are best, and the old words, when short, are the best of all.

Mark Chaplin

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Re: 100 Best European Golf Courses by Golf Journal Germany
« Reply #4 on: September 18, 2014, 04:58:38 AM »
Someone agrees with me on Sunningdale New!!
Cave Nil Vino

Ally Mcintosh

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Re: 100 Best European Golf Courses by Golf Journal Germany
« Reply #5 on: September 18, 2014, 05:09:11 AM »
Well look, let's be constructive in our analysis.

Being generous, the list shows that Germany is a newer golfing nation. It has less need or desire to place emphasis on history. Being part of the European continent, it also has less need or desire in being so GB&I-centric.... So it pulls out some of the best of modern European design and has these courses as a more prolific presence in the list...

Being less generous, because Germany is less familiar with great, classic GCA - being far removed from it give or take a couple of courses - it is more likely to be wowed by the new, high-profile and high-end courses that are marketed well or that can be seen on the television hosting tournaments. Or - as Adam says - are just beautiful to look at.


Angela Moser

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Re: 100 Best European Golf Courses by Golf Journal Germany
« Reply #6 on: September 18, 2014, 05:10:26 AM »
Greg,

they have it on their website, but it is only in German. So this is my translation to it:

THIS IS HOW THE GJ RANKING WORKS

We work with a 100 point system for the course testing, though you will see an index on the ranking. This is why:

The last 306 candidates for the 100 best courses in europe were ranked with the 100 point system. After that we eliminated the category condition, because the condition is especially dependant on the season, month, day or even hour. For an absolut fair and comparable result we would have to play all the courses in the same season and same weather which is impossible.

If we would have eliminated the 12 point for the condition from the beginning, there would have been a big confusion. For an example: The Stadium Course at Bro Hof Slott GC recently ranked with 91 points (published GJ 6/14). Without the condition it would only get 79 points. So instead of confusing by publishing two different results, we worked with an Index.

First step: calculating an average value of all of the tested courses (basic index) and set it to 100. Because Europes courses are very high leveled and very close to another, we received a lot of identical results. So we specified further if 10 or even 15 of the courses were on the same rank. With the three categories, requirements (Anspruch), Design and setting, we calculated a bonus, which we added to their basic index, but without changing the overall ranking itself.


THIS IS HOW GJ RANKS

Demand
mostly decided through the general Course Rating, for countries with SSS-System there is a special Formula. men's and women's tees are included in the rating. After the officially defined level of difficulty our Rater will evalutate.

condition
maximum 12 points. quality of greens, fairways, approaches, bunkers, rough... only a snapshot of the day the Rater was playing there.

design
maximum 24 points. It doesn't matter if the routing or layout is from a famous architect. The core question: Is it fun?

Whether the round of golf has enough variation and also offers enough strategic choices or thinking, we check with a list. This list has more than two dozen criterias: form, size, ondulations of the greens, gradient and length of fairways, location of sand and water hazards, fairness, memorability...

setting
if the course is pleasing to the eye it can earn up to 20 points. Displeasing are: power lines, wind wheel, too many Villas on the side of the Fairway, Noice....


Service
maximum of 15 Punkte. The offer of practice areas, also the restaurant and locker rooms, cars and ballwasher (??? GJ even says on their website that they don't give a full point for ballwashers...)

Bonus
up to 5 extra points for the golfer's dream destination: TOC, Pebble, Valderrama...

GJ Index
With this number the golfer is able to find the price-performance value of each course in a second. If it is 1.0 there is a good relation between the quality and the costs. Higher Index courses are cheap, in the case of a 0.x the price is too expensive.
 
 


Ed Tilley

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Re: 100 Best European Golf Courses by Golf Journal Germany
« Reply #7 on: September 18, 2014, 05:37:31 AM »
24 points for design and 15 points for "service" (practice area, restaurant, ballwashers!). Now I know how Celtic Manor got so high up the list. I did like the core question though - is it fun?

Adam Lawrence

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Re: 100 Best European Golf Courses by Golf Journal Germany
« Reply #8 on: September 18, 2014, 06:21:06 AM »
I haven't been to Adamstal, but it is highly rated in a number of surveys. From photos, it is very spectacular and beautiful - irrespective of its architectural merits it is the sort of course you could see people rating highly for that alone.

Looking at the pics, I can see how the spectacular mountainous setting could garner it support, but I guess it comes back to priorities - do you think a list like this should prioritise great architecture or should setting, service, difficulty, tournament pedigree and other extraneous things be given as much attention as they are here? Obviously, most people on this board would place a strong emphasis on architecture - probably on the basis that high end service and a beautiful setting can be found in any resort around the world, golf or otherwise - and difficulty is not exactly difficult to design into a golf course - much harder is achieving a truly great design. Don't get me wrong, I like the intangible stuff also - but the kind of intangibles that you can't get just by throwing money at something.

Naturally, I largely agree. But not everyone in golf would! Different strokes for different folks.
Adam Lawrence

Editor, Golf Course Architecture
www.golfcoursearchitecture.net

Principal, Oxford Golf Consulting
www.oxfordgolfconsulting.com

Author, 'More Enduring Than Brass: a biography of Harry Colt' (forthcoming).

Short words are best, and the old words, when short, are the best of all.

Sean_A

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Re: 100 Best European Golf Courses by Golf Journal Germany
« Reply #9 on: September 18, 2014, 06:30:41 AM »
Angela

I would think the goal of any quality rankings has to place what is important as the essential criteria comprising most of the "points".  This essentially means the design, conditioning and aesthetics should take the lion's share of points.  So, I think it is a big mistake to ignore conditioning.  

By conditioning I don't mean beautifully presented with greens stimping 11.  I mean how well does the condition of the course support the design?  Therefore, the nature of the soil/turf is critical.  Are the trees and rough well managed?  

By aesthetics I don't mean solely how lovely the mountains are, but how well do the features (man made and natural) of design enhance the visual aspect of the course?  Is there good variety/balance of features and land movement?  Are good internal/external  (especially internal) views available or unnecessarily blocked?  

Design doesn't stand alone, that is why I think the above two elements are essential in an overall assessment.  I like the is it fun criteria.  But I also think playability is critical which feeds back to rough and tree management and essentially gets back to width - is there enough?  Do the greens interact well with the features?  Are the greens decent quality surfaces with interest and challenge?

By my reckoning, if we are talking about ranking by quaity, these three criteria should make up at least 80% (if not closer to 90%) of rating.  Course difficulty, clubhouse ambience, service, location etc are not inconsequential, but they are the cream on the cake.  

All in all, I am not surprised by the rankings.  But I am surprised there are so many awesome Euro courses I never heard of  :)

Ciao
New plays planned for 2024: Fraserburgh, Turnberry, Isle of Harris, Benbecula, Askernish, Traigh, St Medan, Hankley Common, Ashridge, Gog Magog Old & Cruden Bay St Olaf

David Davis

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Re: 100 Best European Golf Courses by Golf Journal Germany
« Reply #10 on: September 18, 2014, 06:55:20 AM »
Interesting list, I'll refrain from being too critical. The weighting is a bit subject however I'm certain knowing the Germans as I think I do (spending half my time in Germany) they would put a large emphasis on challenge something that the tree house certainly does not do, in fact quite the contrary. Germans like to be beaten up on their golf courses. Courses like Les Bordes and Morftontaine might not be in the list because they didn't allow them to play them. Which would make sense. That might also explain why some courses were so far down the list assuming there is some kind of panel that votes. If not enough people vote then a course may receive deductions.

Of course I like where Noordwijkse is ending up ha ha....though I personal don't believe that one for a minute being a member there. I know the Germans love it and we welcome them with open arms and make them lose buckets of balls during their visits.
Sharing the greatest experiences in golf.

IG: @top100golftraveler
www.lockharttravelclub.com

Angela Moser

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Re: 100 Best European Golf Courses by Golf Journal Germany
« Reply #11 on: September 18, 2014, 06:57:44 AM »
Sean

I have the deep wish of the following statement to come true: It is time that the golfing world wakes up and stops limiting the greatest golf courses to GB&I and America.

There is real cool stuff on Continental Europe (!), but there needs to be more people travelling here and talking about them...

Sean_A

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Re: 100 Best European Golf Courses by Golf Journal Germany
« Reply #12 on: September 18, 2014, 07:11:03 AM »
Sean

I have the deep wish of the following statement to come true: It is time that the golfing world wakes up and stops limiting the greatest golf courses to GB&I and America.

There is real cool stuff on Continental Europe (!), but there needs to be more people travelling here and talking about them...

Angela

Can you give me your personal Euro cool list?  I have very little experience playing on the continent in large part because I don't have a clue as to what is cool and I haven't seen al there is on offer in GB&I.  I did a few ad hoc visits to places like PGA Catalunya (could believe it was ranked let alone so high), Praia del Rey (good, but not outstanding - would play again if in the area) and Circolo Venezia (a good course, not special, but I really liked the vibe - great place to chill in busy Venice). 

Ciao
New plays planned for 2024: Fraserburgh, Turnberry, Isle of Harris, Benbecula, Askernish, Traigh, St Medan, Hankley Common, Ashridge, Gog Magog Old & Cruden Bay St Olaf

Angela Moser

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Re: 100 Best European Golf Courses by Golf Journal Germany
« Reply #13 on: September 18, 2014, 07:36:24 AM »
so... I am trying to get my head wrapped around this.

I would answer my three questions like this:

1- woops, what went wrong here (my first thought).
2- probably different priorities and not played all of them?

The Ranking is so different because GJ includes Service and (IMO not so important) other stuff in it? In that case I wonder how different the ranking would be if it is not including those factors at all and just concentrate on the golf and fun part. (Even if it is not fun to not find a toilet if you need one)

3- no true blog or articles about GCA in the german language. It is mostly advertising a destination and not explaining the great strategy about some holes.







jeffwarne

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Re: 100 Best European Golf Courses by Golf Journal Germany
« Reply #14 on: September 18, 2014, 07:42:02 AM »
Perhaps the German raters have not been told what to like by other magazines,editors, and GCA afficianados, like so many panelists here in our rankings........
and just voted objectively based on what THEY had seen in their travels.
"Let's slow the damned greens down a bit, not take the character out of them." Tom Doak
"Take their focus off the grass and put it squarely on interesting golf." Don Mahaffey

Chris DeToro

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Re: 100 Best European Golf Courses by Golf Journal Germany
« Reply #15 on: September 18, 2014, 07:55:16 AM »
Very interesting take on the top European golf courses.  Having spent a few years in Germany from 1998-2001, I was surprised by the number of newer German courses that made the list. 


Tom_Doak

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Re: 100 Best European Golf Courses by Golf Journal Germany
« Reply #16 on: September 18, 2014, 09:53:23 AM »
Angela:

Rain day today?

The two criteria that make this list so different from the other top-100 lists are "service" and "demand".  It actually didn't say how many points were awarded for "demand", but by process of elimination, it looks like 24 points are left over ... so, 39 points for these two categories.  That's enough to make the list completely different than others.

"Service" has nothing to do with golf course architecture, so if you are rating great architecture, it's irrelevant.  If you're rating places to go, I still think it's pretty irrelevant, but I find it interesting that Europeans place more emphasis on it than Americans, when you consider the speed of service in many European countries!

"Demand" is much the same as GOLF DIGEST's "Resistance to Scoring", except that relying on course ratings and slopes is very sketchy, because there is so much discrepancy from one region to the next in how the courses are rated.  This certainly explains how so many modern European courses push out so many older British courses -- because the modern courses are all 7000 yards from the back tees and the British courses are 6600, and that's worth 1.82 strokes in the USGA handicap formula.

P.S.  I didn't look at the list until after my post.  Most interesting omission:  there are five French courses in the list, but none of them are in the "top 5 in France" thread which was here just a day or two ago.  Not even Morfontaine!
« Last Edit: September 18, 2014, 09:58:03 AM by Tom_Doak »

Thomas Dai

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Re: 100 Best European Golf Courses by Golf Journal Germany
« Reply #17 on: September 18, 2014, 12:25:56 PM »
Forgive me. I don't know the Continental courses but to aid in establishing the validity of this ranking I have listed only the quoted GB & I courses. This is how the GB&I listing looks -

Royal County Down GC
Turnberry Resort (Ailsa)
Royal Dornoch GC
Portmarnock GC
Royal Portrush GC
Ballybunion GC (Old)
Royal Birkdale GC
Woodhall Spa (Hotchkin)
Sunningdale GC (New)
Royal Troon GC (Old)
Muirfield
Trump International
Carnoustie Golf Links
Kingsbarns Golf Links
Lahinch GC (Old)
Ganton GC
Royal Aberdeen GC
Sunningdale GC (Old)
Wentworth Club (West)
Waterville Golf Links
Gleneagles (The King‘s)
St Andrews Links (Old)
North Berwick GC
Castle Stuart Golf Links
Swinley Forest GC
Cruden Bay GC
Walton Heath GC (Old)
Old Head Golf Links
Prestwick GC
Royal Porthcawl GC
Royal St. George‘s GC
Druids Glen
Royal St. David‘s GC
Celtic Manor Resort (Twenty Ten)
St. George‘s Hill GC (Red & Blue)
Rosapenna Golf Resort (Sandy Hills)
Western Gailes GC
St. Enodoc GC (Church)
The Machrihanish GC (Championship)
Lough Erne Resort (Faldo)
Royal Cinque Ports GC
Royal Liverpool GC
Ballyliffin GC (Glashedy Links)
The European Club
Tralee GC
Trevose G&CC
Adare GC
The Grove
Royal Lytham & St Annes GC
Nairn GC (Championship)
Saunton GC (East)
Portstewart GC (The Strand)
Royal West Norfolk GC
Formby GC
West Sussex GC
The Berkshire GC (Red)
Rye GC (Old)

I know that various points related criteria have been used to determine the GJ ranking but I cannot help but think that if any poster herein proposed an overall GB&I ranking as above howls of criticism would descend upon them. My hope is that the ranking of the Continental courses is less 'iffy' than that of the GB&I ones and that the criteria are refined over time - maybe they should have been refined (changed) before this publication!

As a minor aside, if a journal is going to publish a top-100 listing published over a photograph of a golf course I would also have expected the photo used to be of their 'number 1' ranked course, namely Royal County Down, but it's not, the photo is instead of Royal Portrush. Does that send a message about professionalism and credibility?

Sorry to be so negative although rankings and listing processes are partly a learning process and the possibility does exist to develop and enhance them over time so perhaps there is hope for future editions.

atb


« Last Edit: September 18, 2014, 12:33:25 PM by Thomas Dai »

Ruediger Meyer

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Re: 100 Best European Golf Courses by Golf Journal Germany
« Reply #18 on: September 18, 2014, 01:24:08 PM »
We had the discussion about this list earlier

http://www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,59003.0.html

One thing I'd like to add. I'm pretty sure a lot of the rating are based on one or two reviews and not all of them by the same people. That would explain the strange rankings

Steve Okula

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Re: 100 Best European Golf Courses by Golf Journal Germany
« Reply #19 on: September 18, 2014, 01:36:10 PM »
I was at Morfontaine today. It's a masterpiece and in immaculate condition. Any list that does not Morfontaine at least in Europe's top 100 can  be dismissed as the work of clowns.
The small wheel turns by the fire and rod,
the big wheel turns by the grace of God.

Ruediger Meyer

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Re: 100 Best European Golf Courses by Golf Journal Germany
« Reply #20 on: September 18, 2014, 01:54:23 PM »
I was at Morfontaine today. It's a masterpiece and in immaculate condition. Any list that does not Morfontaine at least in Europe's top 100 can  be dismissed as the work of clowns.

To be fair: the list excluded private clubs

Michael Wharton-Palmer

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Re: 100 Best European Golf Courses by Golf Journal Germany
« Reply #21 on: September 18, 2014, 02:35:15 PM »
I was at Morfontaine today. It's a masterpiece and in immaculate condition. Any list that does not Morfontaine at least in Europe's top 100 can  be dismissed as the work of clowns.

To be fair: the list excluded private clubs


????
Did I not see the likes of Sunningdale, on this list, I dont think they would appreciate being viewed as "non" private?

Ruediger Meyer

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Re: 100 Best European Golf Courses by Golf Journal Germany
« Reply #22 on: September 18, 2014, 04:29:22 PM »
Regular Joe can play Sunningdale, but nor Morfontaine. That was the criteria

Thomas Dai

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Re: 100 Best European Golf Courses by Golf Journal Germany
« Reply #23 on: September 18, 2014, 04:39:36 PM »
Out of curiosity, does Regular Joe need a handicap certificate, or know a member or just have a wedge (of cash £) to play at Sunningdale?

atb

Ryan Coles

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Re: 100 Best European Golf Courses by Golf Journal Germany
« Reply #24 on: September 18, 2014, 04:41:37 PM »
Out of curiosity, does Regular Joe need a handicap certificate, or know a member or just have a wedge (of cash £) to play at Sunningdale?

atb

Just a wedge of cash, Thomas.

Although £160 for a round on both courses after 1st November doesn't seem too bad.

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