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Zack Molnar

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Milwaukee Area - one round, what do you choose?
« on: August 31, 2014, 11:58:18 AM »
I have a wedding in Milwaukee at the beginning of October and I will have time Sunday morning to play one round before I need to head back to Chicago and catch my flight home. I am deciding between Lawsonia and Erin Hills, but Milwaukee CC and Blue Mound have also been put on the table. My understanding of Lawsonia is it is a great place to see architecturally, but the conditioning and overall experience leave something to be desired. Erin Hills seems to be regarded as a much better test. I do not know much about MCC or BMCC so if anyone has anything to add on those please chime in.

Also, if anyone is in the area and wants to join me on whatever I choose, would love to have you

Max Sternberg

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Re: Milwaukee Area - one round, what do you choose?
« Reply #1 on: August 31, 2014, 12:35:35 PM »
I haven't been to MCC or Blue Mound but between Erin Hills and Lawsonia, its Lawsonia every time. Erin Hills is what it is but Lawsonia is a special place. I haven't been there yet this season but last year conditioning was not an issue at all

Jeff Bergeron

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Re: Milwaukee Area - one round, what do you choose?
« Reply #2 on: August 31, 2014, 12:54:39 PM »
I've only played Milwaukee but it is over the top good. Classic Allison restored by TD, I believe. There is no unaccompanied play so you'll need a member to host you. Awesome locker room compliments the course perfectly.

Michael George

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Re: Milwaukee Area - one round, what do you choose?
« Reply #3 on: August 31, 2014, 01:05:45 PM »
Erin Hills is an incredible place and great golf course.  Difficult golf course though so if you are not a single digit, I would lean more toward Blue Mound.  Lawsonia is too far.  I haven't played Milwaukee CC yet so no opinion there.

I am always surprised by the criticism of Erin Hills.  I played it last fall and it was spectacular.  I understand that it had some problems in the past, but I don't see many problems in its current form.  It is going to be an incredible US Open course.
     



 
« Last Edit: September 02, 2014, 12:55:35 PM by Michael George »
"First come my wife and children.  Next comes my profession--the law. Finally, and never as a life in itself, comes golf" - Bob Jones

Andy Troeger

Re: Milwaukee Area - one round, what do you choose?
« Reply #4 on: August 31, 2014, 01:09:23 PM »
I've played all of those but Blue Mound, and would go to Milwaukee CC if you have the opportunity. It is the best of the bunch, and Lawsonia and Erin Hills are public so you could theoretically go back for those.

Erin Hills is a really tough test, and if you have afternoon plans either get out really early or give yourself plenty of time to play. Pace of play is about five hours.

Rees Milikin

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Re: Milwaukee Area - one round, what do you choose?
« Reply #5 on: August 31, 2014, 01:18:19 PM »
MCC is #1 if access isn't an issue.  I actually preferred Lawsonia over Blue Mound, but Lawsonia isn't close to Milwaukee like Blue Mound & Erin Hills.

Jim Tang

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Re: Milwaukee Area - one round, what do you choose?
« Reply #6 on: August 31, 2014, 02:05:25 PM »
Of the four options, I've only played Milwaukee and Erin Hills.  I would go with Milwaukee.  Good width off the tee.  Huge greens.  The holes down by the river are fantastic and there is a decent amount of elevation change on the property to make the round interesting.

J_ Crisham

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Re: Milwaukee Area - one round, what do you choose?
« Reply #7 on: August 31, 2014, 06:14:43 PM »
I've played all of them multiple times- Milwaukee CC is very good , IMO the best in Wisconsin . After that it's a toss up between Blue Mound and Lawsonia. Blue mound has as good a punchbowl #8 , as Raynor ever built. Erin hills IMO was pretty disappointing both pre and post renovation when one considers they had a blank canvas to work with. The bunkering is pretty atrocious. This property could have yielde a Shinny or Prairie Dunes , it's that good terrain wise. So my advice is Milwaukee CC , then Blue Mound. Lawsonia is a hike , Erin Hills not in the same league.

Phil McDade

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Re: Milwaukee Area - one round, what do you choose?
« Reply #8 on: August 31, 2014, 07:25:36 PM »
Zack:

Mr. Crisham is pretty much spot on, although I think he is a bit too critical of Erin Hills. One can always play the "what if..." card with a course like Erin Hills, but much of what is there -- when it's playing fast-and-firm, as I suspect it would be in early October -- is a real test of golf, and its really linksy in the way it plays. If you're into playing U.S. Open courses, there aren't that many public options available, and EH is one of the few. A good 30-45 minutes from downtown Milwaukee, and not an easy or short round of golf (walking mandatory).

Reports of poor conditioning at Lawsonia are, in my view, vastly over-sold. Maybe several years ago -- in the past few years, conditioning there has been terrific, and that course reaches its near ideal maintenance meld in the fall, so early October would be a terrific time to visit.  The definitive Lanford/Moreau course, and restored nearly entirely to how Langford envisioned that course playing. If you haven't seen one of their courses, it's a must-play. A hike, however, from Milwaukee proper -- at least 1-1/2 hours one way.

Milwaukee CC is the best in state; if you have access, head there immediately. But it's generally known as the most difficult course to access in the state.

Blue Mound is a very good Raynor, over some flattish, not very dramatic terrain, that nonetheless is worth seeing for the Raynor greens alone -- maybe the best set of greens in the state. Very walkable; a short distance from downtown.

Addendum: There are GCA profiles by Ran of each of the four courses discussed here, as well as considerable information, including additional course profiles, of each of the four courses using the "search" function on GCA.

« Last Edit: August 31, 2014, 07:35:00 PM by Phil McDade »

Mark Johnson

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Re: Milwaukee Area - one round, what do you choose?
« Reply #9 on: August 31, 2014, 07:31:46 PM »
Play Erin Hills but play one set of tee IN FRONT of where you normally would.

Course tends to play very long and you interact with the archietecture much better.

Will Peterson

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Re: Milwaukee Area - one round, what do you choose?
« Reply #10 on: August 31, 2014, 07:36:16 PM »
If you have the chance, play Milwaukee CC.  Best course in the state, and one of my all time favorites.  Blue Mound is a great place as well, but with only one round, it's got to be MCC.

J_ Crisham

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Re: Milwaukee Area - one round, what do you choose?
« Reply #11 on: August 31, 2014, 07:49:57 PM »
Zack:

Mr. Crisham is pretty much spot on, although I think he is a bit too critical of Erin Hills. One can always play the "what if..." card with a course like Erin Hills, but much of what is there -- when it's playing fast-and-firm, as I suspect it would be in early October -- is a real test of golf, and its really linksy in the way it plays. If you're into playing U.S. Open courses, there aren't that many public options available, and EH is one of the few. A good 30-45 minutes from downtown Milwaukee, and not an easy or short round of golf (walking mandatory).

Reports of poor conditioning at Lawsonia are, in my view, vastly over-sold. Maybe several years ago -- in the past few years, conditioning there has been terrific, and that course reaches its near ideal maintenance meld in the fall, so early October would be a terrific time to visit.  The definitive Lanford/Moreau course, and restored nearly entirely to how Langford envisioned that course playing. If you haven't seen one of their courses, it's a must-play. A hike, however, from Milwaukee proper -- at least 1-1/2 hours one way.

Milwaukee CC is the best in state; if you have access, head there immediately. But it's generally known as the most difficult course to access in the state.

Blue Mound is a very good Raynor, over some flattish, not very dramatic terrain, that nonetheless is worth seeing for the Raynor greens alone -- maybe the best set of greens in the state. Very walkable; a short distance from downtown.


Phil,   You are correct- my view towards EH is perhaps a bit harsh. I see the terrain there and try to envision what Perry Maxwell or William Flynn could have produced. The long walk doesn't bother me, in fact I carried my clubs the entire way on my first visit. You are correct also is that it should be firm in October . If they get rain the week of the Open it will become a slog. I felt it was a poor choice of venue to hold an Open . Which holes at EH are really memorable ? At BM or Milwaukee both you and I could rattle off 12-15 holes at both Clubs that are very good to excellent . Green complexes at EH are good but not in the same league as Lawsonia , BM , or Milwaukee . I was recently invited by a pal to play EH for free in 2 weeks- I passed , as having played it a few times I just don't see the hype. In fact I would struggle to place it in the top 6 in the fine State of Wisconsin .

Phil McDade

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Re: Milwaukee Area - one round, what do you choose?
« Reply #12 on: August 31, 2014, 08:42:33 PM »

Phil,   You are correct- my view towards EH is perhaps a bit harsh. I see the terrain there and try to envision what Perry Maxwell or William Flynn could have produced. The long walk doesn't bother me, in fact I carried my clubs the entire way on my first visit. You are correct also is that it should be firm in October . If they get rain the week of the Open it will become a slog. I felt it was a poor choice of venue to hold an Open . Which holes at EH are really memorable ? At BM or Milwaukee both you and I could rattle off 12-15 holes at both Clubs that are very good to excellent . Green complexes at EH are good but not in the same league as Lawsonia , BM , or Milwaukee . I was recently invited by a pal to play EH for free in 2 weeks- I passed , as having played it a few times I just don't see the hype. In fact I would struggle to place it in the top 6 in the fine State of Wisconsin .
[/quote]

I think memorable holes at EH are: 2 (a really good short par 4, the critics nothwithstanding :D); 8 (just for the fairway terrain); 9 (a terrific short par 3 that's quite dicey in any kind of wind); 12, the better-looking cousin of #8; and 15 sort-of (although its terrain is so rugged and penal that I don't think it plays as envisioned -- a driveable par 4).

I think the opener #1 is a bit of a slog, and and the finish of #s 17 and 18 I think is a letdown (esp. with the NLE esker a non-factor at 17 :() I wish the fairway at #5 would be re-aligned to make that right-side fairway bunker a true Principal's Nose bunker, which I think it was at one point. The rest of the course is filled with solid golf holes, although I would agree that on a memorability scale, they may fall short -- U.S. Open tough, yes; memorable -- a fair critique.

Part of my bias toward a favorable view of EH is how it played when it hosted the US Amateur a few years ago under incredibly fast-and-firm conditions in August here. That's how the course is meant to be played, and it really made for some fun golf -- balls were just zinging all over the course, with incredibly long and often unpredictable rollouts. And parts of it are a real puzzle for some of the best (amateur) players -- the 2nd being a good example. Player after player put their tee shot within 60 to sometimes 30 yards of the green, then were absolutely befuddled about how to play the 2nd shot -- little skipper, high spinner, one bump-and-run to that little perched-up postage stamp of a green. That to me is really good architecture.

And I also think we golf architecture cognescenti (I tend to be one of them ;D) are somewhat biased toward classic-era courses whereas we give a bum rap to modern courses with similar features in how they play. Take the 4th hole at EH -- which at one point during the Am was moved to well under 300 yards from the tees, with a very difficult, tucked pin. It called for a 6-iron/wedge approach, yet player after player (all young guns ???) took out driver. Not that dissimilar to Oakmont's 17th -- praised as one of the game's great short par 4s, and yet it offered similar options to EH's 4th. You can argue the 17th is a better hole -- it probably is -- but Oakmont's 17 is by most measures memorable, but a similarly playing par 4 at EH is just another hole.

However, -- I too worry that EH won't present itself in its ideal condition with a mid-June US Open date; maybe the PGA and US Open can switch dates that year. ;D

Josh Tarble

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Re: Milwaukee Area - one round, what do you choose?
« Reply #13 on: August 31, 2014, 08:48:45 PM »
Zack,
If you choose to play Erin Hills, I think you'll really enjoy it.  It's a fun course that will really test your game.  Not sure I'd pass up a chance at Milwaukee CC though.


Tim Lewis

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Re: Milwaukee Area - one round, what do you choose?
« Reply #14 on: August 31, 2014, 08:58:20 PM »
Although Blue Mound and Lawsonia may be more complicated and better from a strategic perspective, Milwaukee is the best in the state. It's relatively simple from a architectural perspective, but doesn't try to be anything its not, and the setting and conditioning go unmatched by anything else in the area (I'm a little biased though as MCC is the course I have spent the most time on). The only way you would get on MCC is if you knew a member, so between Lawsonia and Erin Hills I would take Lawsonia all day. Erin Hills was a pretty big let down for me. The site was terrific and much more dramatic than I expected, but I found the golf very uninspiring. It also looked like, from my perspective, that they were having some trouble with the fescue, especially on the approaches. I would be interested to hear if anyone else who has played recently could offer any of their thoughts regarding the conditioning (I played in early July).    

Jim Franklin

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Re: Milwaukee Area - one round, what do you choose?
« Reply #15 on: August 31, 2014, 09:55:10 PM »
I've played all of those but Blue Mound, and would go to Milwaukee CC if you have the opportunity. It is the best of the bunch, and Lawsonia and Erin Hills are public so you could theoretically go back for those.

Erin Hills is a really tough test, and if you have afternoon plans either get out really early or give yourself plenty of time to play. Pace of play is about five hours.

Andy is right. Milwaukee CC is fantastic.
Mr Hurricane

Andy Shulman

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Re: Milwaukee Area - one round, what do you choose?
« Reply #16 on: August 31, 2014, 11:57:50 PM »
Zack - One logistical point to consider is that Lawsonia is 1 3/4 hours from Milwaukee.  From there to O'Hare and you've well over four hours of driving.  Erin Hills cuts that down to 2 1/2 hours and the Milwaukee courses even less.  That said, Lawsonia - the only one of the four I've played - is definitely worth a visit when time permits.

Jason Thurman

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Re: Milwaukee Area - one round, what do you choose?
« Reply #17 on: September 01, 2014, 03:59:44 AM »
Zack, having talked with you a bit a the Mashie last year and knowing a bit about the type of player you are, I don't think you'll go wrong with any of the options. I can't offer much feedback on Blue Mound or Milwaukee, though there's a chance I'll change that in the next few weeks when I get to Wisconsin myself. I certainly wouldn't pass on Milwaukee given an opportunity to play it, and Blue Mound sounds excellent as well.

As for Erin Hills and Lawsonia, they're two of my favorites. I prefer Erin Hills, but not by a wide margin. Lawsonia is sort of a farmland links - imagine an astonishingly improved Golden Age version of Kearney Hill with much better bunkering, a better overall setting, and a world-class set of greens and you're on the right track. Its drawbacks are a preponderance of dogleg-right par 4s and a mundane stretch or two (1-3 and 14-17 don't do much for me), but the course features tremendous variety in its approach shot demands despite the large number of left-to-right par 4s and it also has my favorite set of par 3s of any course I've played. I could also make a good case that it has the best hole of each par that I've ever played - the 6th is arguably the best par 4 I've ever played, 10 is arguably the best par 3, and 13 arguably the best par 5. Those three holes alone are worth the drive from MKE assuming you have time.

Erin Hills is much brawnier and on very unique terrain. The par 4s, as a set, are as good as it gets. As others have mentioned, it's a stout test but I think its playability is underrated. I played with my 33 handicap mother and she loved it. It's tough to score on, but easy to have a good time. For me, its drawbacks are an average set of par 3s and the fact that it can overwhelm a player disappointed by high scores, but it has a lot of holes that are truly one-of-a-kind. I generally agree with Phil's assessment, but I would add that 3, 4, and 10 are excellent holes for stronger players and 12 is extraordinary. I also would disagree that 15 was intended to be drivable - it's a GREAT drive and pitch hole with a strategy so ambiguous that it almost singlehandedly destroyed Patrick Cantlay's chance at winning the US Amateur.

Honestly, if I were making the decision myself, I would just decide which is more important on this trip. Would you rather spend less time driving or spend less money? If drive time is the priority, go with Erin Hills. If you'd rather spend less on greens fees, do Lawsonia. Then, start planning your next trip to the Dairyland and make sure you see the other one.
« Last Edit: September 01, 2014, 04:39:55 AM by Jason Thurman »
"There will always be haters. That’s just the way it is. Hating dudes marry hating women and have hating ass kids." - Evan Turner

Some of y'all have never been called out in bold green font and it really shows.

Brad Klein

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Re: Milwaukee Area - one round, what do you choose?
« Reply #18 on: September 01, 2014, 04:29:47 AM »
Lawsonia isn't exactly in the Milwaukee area but it's worth the trip. Whatever conditioning issues they suffered are behind them. It's a remarkable museum piece -- the best extent example of Langford-Moreau remaining in the Midwest.

Brad

Bradley Anderson

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Re: Milwaukee Area - one round, what do you choose?
« Reply #19 on: September 01, 2014, 06:39:58 AM »
The great sleeper course of the Milwaukee area is Pine Hills in Sheboygan. I believe it was designed by an associate of Langford and Moreau in 1928.

Photo gallery http://www.pinehillscc.com/photogallery_golf.asp


Terry Lavin

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Re: Milwaukee Area - one round, what do you choose?
« Reply #20 on: September 01, 2014, 11:31:30 AM »
BA:

Looks like a nice arboretum, as well!
Nobody ever went broke underestimating the intelligence of the American people.  H.L. Mencken

Richard Hetzel

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Re: Milwaukee Area - one round, what do you choose?
« Reply #21 on: September 01, 2014, 11:36:44 AM »
I will have this problem next summer and my choice will be: Lawsonia!
Last 7:
Westbrook CC (OH), NCR CC South (OH), Fort Jackson Wildcat (SC), True Blue GC (SC), Pinewood CC (NC), Asheboro Muni (NC), Dye River Course (VA)

Phil McDade

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Re: Milwaukee Area - one round, what do you choose?
« Reply #22 on: September 01, 2014, 11:52:08 AM »
I also would disagree that 15 was intended to be drivable - it's a GREAT drive and pitch hole with a strategy so ambiguous that it almost singlehandedly destroyed Patrick Cantlay's chance at winning the US Amateur.


Jason:

I don't think Cantlay was befuddled by the ambiguity of 15th; he clearly intended to lay up there in the final match and simply hit a poor shot: http://www.golf.com/ap-news/kraft-beats-ucla-star-cantlay-us-amateur-final

I think 15 is an interesting hole, and more than one player in the US Am tried to drive it; I can't help but think the back tee there -- which I believe is the highest and most exposed point of the course -- was designed to tempt players to have a go at what is really a pulpit green site.

Jason Thurman

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Re: Milwaukee Area - one round, what do you choose?
« Reply #23 on: September 01, 2014, 01:24:51 PM »
Phil, I would suggest that what makes a driveable hole interesting is a sense of allure and temptation to take on risk to get onto the green. For that to happen, the hole should be reachable, distance-wise, for a reasonable percentage of a hypothetical field. A driveable hole also will feature a green that is receptive to holding a driven ball, even if requiring great precision in the process.

Erin Hills' 15th hole is 370 yards from the back tee and plays almost straight into the prevailing wind from the west. Even slightly downhill, that puts it out of reach for the huge majority of even Tour pros. Even from two tees forward, it's 346 yards. It also features a small plateau green elevated about ten feet above its surroundings with fallaway edges on three sides. It's very hard to imagine anyone actually hitting it onto that green with a driver with anything less than a fluke shot. Did anyone actually hit and hold the green during the Amateur? I didn't see it happen. The mere fact that plenty of players hit driver off the tee doesn't prove that they were also realistically attempting to reach the putting surface.

That green, however, becomes extremely interesting for an approach shot. Its elevated nature practically demands an aerial approach. Its shallow nature makes the angle of that approach matter, and also makes a player debate between whether it's best to approach with a pitch shot or more of a full swing that might spin and hold more reliably. Finally, the bunkering throughout the fairway suggests that the tee shot is more about identifying the ideal position from which to approach. There are countless landing areas and angles of approach that can be set up. It was pretty clear to me that Cantlay overthought things when he took 8 iron off that tee and splashed it into a bunker during the Amateur. I saw a player who was overwhelmed by a combination of pressure and options and who chose a completely stupid landing area for his tee shot on a hole with lots of risk in its fairway. Had the hole actually been realistically driveable, I think his options would have been much more black and white.
"There will always be haters. That’s just the way it is. Hating dudes marry hating women and have hating ass kids." - Evan Turner

Some of y'all have never been called out in bold green font and it really shows.

Terry Lavin

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Re: Milwaukee Area - one round, what do you choose?
« Reply #24 on: September 01, 2014, 01:30:35 PM »
I will have this problem next summer and my choice will be: Lawsonia!

You'll certainly be making the frugal choice, too!
Nobody ever went broke underestimating the intelligence of the American people.  H.L. Mencken

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