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Chris DeToro

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Drastic renovations
« on: August 29, 2014, 08:59:28 AM »
As I head out to TPC Boston for the Deutsche Bank, a course which has seen a complete renovation and is barely recognizable from its origin from what I understand (and correct me if I'm mistaken), it made me wonder what other courses have seen such drastic renovations. 

Is this the best example? 

Matthew Sander

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Re: Drastic renovations
« Reply #1 on: August 29, 2014, 09:03:01 AM »
Not much time to elaborate now, but two locals come to mind - Medinah #1 and Butterfield CC

Adam Clayman

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Re: Drastic renovations
« Reply #2 on: August 29, 2014, 09:39:23 AM »
Dismal River White
Coyote Creek- Formerly Riverside. Morgan Hill, Ca.
"It's unbelievable how much you don't know about the game you've been playing your whole life." - Mickey Mantle

Ken Fry

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Re: Drastic renovations
« Reply #3 on: August 29, 2014, 09:45:27 AM »
Would ANGC qualify for this?  Some changes historically good, others.....

Ken

Jeff_Brauer

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Re: Drastic renovations
« Reply #4 on: August 29, 2014, 09:50:15 AM »
Really, not all that uncommon to totally blow out an existing course with a new, or partially new routing on the same site.  I would guess there are literally thousands out there, from an old course like Northland in Duluth having moved halfway up the hill by Ross, to Faz totally redoing the old Desert Inn course in Vegas to many others.

Not really familiar with all the changes made to Boston TPC, so don't know where that fits on the "total blowout" scale.
Jeff Brauer, ASGCA Director of Outreach

Chris DeToro

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Re: Drastic renovations
« Reply #5 on: August 29, 2014, 09:51:08 AM »
I'm not sure about ANGC--those changes were more about modernization as a major championship venue.  I think the issues at Medinah #1 and TPC Boston were more structural in nature

Ian Mackenzie

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Re: Drastic renovations
« Reply #6 on: August 29, 2014, 10:03:43 AM »
Pinehurst #2

Doral Blue Monster

Medinah #1 for sure


PCCraig

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Re: Drastic renovations
« Reply #7 on: August 29, 2014, 10:42:09 AM »
TPC Boston isn't what I would call a "drastic" renovation. The routing is the same. Many of the holes pretty much play the same way. A few holes (like the 4th and 17th) were changed more significantly for the better. But the change was primarily cosmetic and consisted of a series of smaller tweaks.

Haven't been, but it sounds like Medinah #1 was far more drastic.

Olympic Hills here in Minnesota (in Eden Prairie) would qualify as Ron Prichard is completely rebuilding and redesigning a 1960's era course, to open next year.
H.P.S.

Chris DeToro

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Re: Drastic renovations
« Reply #8 on: August 29, 2014, 10:50:11 AM »
Oh ok, I thought the changes were much more drastic at TPC so much so that they basically just say Gil Hanse designed it

PCCraig

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Re: Drastic renovations
« Reply #9 on: August 29, 2014, 12:27:25 PM »
Gil Hanse did a nice job sprucing the place up to be a little more strategic and to look more like a New England course. But to say that he "basically designed it" would be an overstatement, in my opinion, after playing it a bunch pre and post renovations.
H.P.S.

Pete Lavallee

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Re: Drastic renovations
« Reply #10 on: August 29, 2014, 12:37:48 PM »
Pat,

As someone who is lucky enough to play it pre and post renovation I am interested in hearing what exactly Gil did. The praise for his work seems almost universal; I haven't heard a single person say they enjoyed the original version better, or that the changes were unnecessary. I can readily understand how Gil made the course look like it belonged in New England and not Florida, but my guess is that the changes have to go deeper than just the visual aspect. For instance were any green shapes changed or recontoured? On how many holes has the strategy changed significantly?
"...one inoculated with the virus must swing a golf-club or perish."  Robert Hunter

PCCraig

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Re: Drastic renovations
« Reply #11 on: August 29, 2014, 12:51:18 PM »
Pat,

As someone who is lucky enough to play it pre and post renovation I am interested in hearing what exactly Gil did. The praise for his work seems almost universal; I haven't heard a single person say they enjoyed the original version better, or that the changes were unnecessary. I can readily understand how Gil made the course look like it belonged in New England and not Florida, but my guess is that the changes have to go deeper than just the visual aspect. For instance were any green shapes changed or recontoured? On how many holes has the strategy changed significantly?

Pete,

I'm getting ready to head out of town for the holiday weekend, so I don't have time to do a full run down. I would agree that Gil Hanse made the course better through his work. Greens were tweaked, bunkers moved and reshaped, mowing lines changed, etc. My only point is that the bones of the course are still there from the Palmer design, and that many of the holes play effectively the same (and the routing is unchanged). So, to call it a Gil Hanse design would be a stretch, in my opinion. Renovation? Sure.

H.P.S.

Matthew Petersen

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Re: Drastic renovations
« Reply #12 on: August 29, 2014, 03:48:11 PM »
Here's an aerial of the back nine (plus #9) from 2004, pre-renovation.



And from 2013, with the Hanse renovations. Obviously the holes are generally the same, but bunkering drastically changed, and a few other things (fairway lines on 17 and 18 are notable).


Matthew Petersen

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Re: Drastic renovations
« Reply #13 on: August 29, 2014, 03:55:51 PM »
It's not shown in those aerials, but the most drastic change was probably #4. Previously an almost 90 degree dogleg right, two-shot par 4. Now a potentially drivable par 4. If you look at a current aerial, the tree clearing gives an idea of where the green used to be.

#7 stayed in the same corridor, but the Sahara-like bunker was Gil's addition and really makes that a different hole, as well.

Chris DeToro

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Re: Drastic renovations
« Reply #14 on: August 29, 2014, 08:29:29 PM »
Pat, looking forward to hearing more about the changes as I have no experience with the course pre-renovation and have only toured it twice post renovation.  It does look like the course belongs in New England, but some of the elements still look Florida-ish

Robert Mercer Deruntz

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Re: Drastic renovations
« Reply #15 on: August 29, 2014, 11:30:50 PM »
Gil previously did a complete renovation to Soule Park.  This was a so so Bell Jr. that has been built into a wonderful highly strategic course.

RJ_Daley

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Re: Drastic renovations
« Reply #16 on: August 29, 2014, 11:54:03 PM »
Erin Hills?  Was it drastic or desparate?
No actual golf rounds were ruined or delayed, nor golf rules broken, in the taking of any photographs that may be displayed by the above forum user.

Blake Conant

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Re: Drastic renovations
« Reply #17 on: August 30, 2014, 12:46:37 AM »
medinah #1 wasn't a renovation, dudes. 

Gary Sato

Re: Drastic renovations
« Reply #18 on: August 30, 2014, 03:54:55 PM »
Cal Club?  13 original holes and 5 holes by Kyle Phillips.  Thousands of trees eliminated. 

It completely changed the club from off the radar to arguably the premier club in the Bay Area and one of the best in the state. 

Matthew Petersen

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Re: Drastic renovations
« Reply #19 on: August 30, 2014, 04:12:50 PM »
Doak's reinvention of Lowry/Mira Vista into Commonground would certainly seem to fit the bill. I guess a handful of hole corridors stayed the same, but that's about all the didn't change there.

Also the recent renovation of Camelback's Indian Bend course to what's now known as the Ambiente.

Wayne_Kozun

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Re: Drastic renovations
« Reply #20 on: August 30, 2014, 04:20:41 PM »
I have played here three times - once per year over the last three years.  One thing about this course is that there is a lot of acreage used and you often cannot see another hole from the one that you are playing on.  And there are no homes alongside the fairways.  This is quite unlike most courses that I play in Toronto where many of the older clubs are somewhat cramped compared to TPC-Boston.  But this does lead to some long walks between the holes.

In terms of drastic renovations, wasn't this the case with lots of British courses after WW II.  Wasn't Turnberry used as an RAF base?  I imagine the course post-war was drastically different to what you saw before.

Gary Sato

Re: Drastic renovations
« Reply #21 on: August 30, 2014, 04:24:52 PM »
This was discussed once before.   Some interesting comments from the past.

http://www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,39528.0.html


Phil McDade

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Re: Drastic renovations
« Reply #22 on: August 30, 2014, 05:09:17 PM »
Erin Hills?  Was it drastic or desparate?

Well, it was ordered. ;D (by the chief blue coat and tinkerer of USGA Open courses....)

I wouldn't say drastic -- the basic routing (well, 90 percent of it) is the same, and most holes play similarly to what was originally envisioned, I think. If one was beholden to the original Dell hole (I was not), you might regard it as drastic -- although I'd argue it improved the course.

But several of the changes are dramatic -- the 1st hole is pretty different without the tree and that odd, mostly blind second shot; the 2nd green is half-again as large (but still tiny, and still plays to its original intent, I'd argue); the 5th has a differently aligned fairway (to its detriment); the 7th is now longer, obviously, as it covers the former Dell terrain; the 8th no longer closes the front nine (but little changed), and the 9th, a terrific short par 3, now ends the front nine instead of serving as a bye hole (a good change, I'd argue). The back nine largely remains the same, save for the 10th, now a long par 4, with no Biarritz green (seen as goofy by some), and the denuded 17, with the esker long gone and thus changing the nature of a potential blind second shot. And there are a ton of new, largely penal, bunkers.

I don't know if I'd call it desperate -- these days, and going on for decades really, if you want to host the USGA's Open, you do as they say. The original owner of Erin Hills, and the course's successors, wanted to host that championship.

Ian Mackenzie

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Re: Drastic renovations
« Reply #23 on: August 30, 2014, 05:22:34 PM »
medinah #1 wasn't a renovation, dudes. 

Blake, I take it you did some work there?

You describe the work at #1 as a "remodel". What's the difference between a remodel and a renovation?
Doesn't a "remodel" ( as you describe it on your Linked In profile) infer  a fairly drastic renovation as implied in the start of the thread. While certainly not a restoration, it appears as it may be more of a Doak course than anything else now.

Sounds fairly drastic to me and in the latest cover story of CDGA magazine ( and PGA magazine cited here last week) it says the same thing.
What's your take?

Blake Conant

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Re: Drastic renovations
« Reply #24 on: August 30, 2014, 11:17:57 PM »
Ian, first off, I was fairly intoxicated when I posted that, but I'll stand behind my drunken logic. 

I've always been told a remodel is when the the course is blown up and the routing changes while a renovation, drastic or subtle, keeps the routing in tact.  On #1 Tom and Brian rerouted ~6 of the holes.  And the camel shapeshifted.  That's the end all be all right there. 

I can be swayed by a convincing argument, tho.

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