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Lloyd_Cole

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Best courses on clay, without huge maintenance budgets...
« on: August 27, 2014, 07:53:38 PM »
I did search and search and found nothing... so after reading Ran's article on Erin Hills and wondering, again, why anyone ever tries to build golf courses on clay... I wonder what really good courses out there, without massive maintenance budgets (like Merion) allowing them to dump sand on top of the whole course, are on clay?

Bill_McBride

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Re: Best courses on clay, without huge maintenance budgets...
« Reply #1 on: August 27, 2014, 08:05:24 PM »
Cuscowilla in Georgia, even has red sand in the bunkers.  One of my favorite courses. 

I suspect there are many more top level courses in America on Clay than sand, just because there aren't that many sand based regions in the US.

Tyler Kearns

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Re: Best courses on clay, without huge maintenance budgets...
« Reply #2 on: August 27, 2014, 08:16:57 PM »
wondering, again, why anyone ever tries to build golf courses on clay...

Lloyd,

Agreed that it is not an ideal base, but sometimes you simply do not have an option.  Aside from a few small pockets here and there (in sparsely populated locations), virtually the entire southern portion of Manitoba is a heavy clay.  My home course aerates and heavily top dresses fairways every year in order to build up a decent layer of sand on top of the clay to help facilitate drainage.  Wholesale capping at time of construction is too costly.

TK

Garland Bayley

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Re: Best courses on clay, without huge maintenance budgets...
« Reply #3 on: August 27, 2014, 08:19:02 PM »
Methinks you don't have to have a massive budget to dump sand on the entire course.

My modest club does it spring and fall, provided we have full membership, thereby giving sufficient funds. Was always done before the great recession. Since the great recession only sparingly, but membership is growing again.
"I enjoy a course where the challenges are contained WITHIN it, and recovery is part of the game  not a course where the challenge is to stay ON it." Jeff Warne

RJ_Daley

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Re: Best courses on clay, without huge maintenance budgets...
« Reply #4 on: August 27, 2014, 08:20:16 PM »
I don't think Erin Hills is on soil we would say is true clayey soil, even if the ag map calls it some version of a Wisconsin clayey-loam.

However, my home area of NE Wisconsin has a more greasy clay-loam called Kewuanee clay loam, and it is really tight clay!  Yet, once turf is established, and aeration and sand amendments take hold, it needs less water and holds moisture for the plant uptake.  There are many courses around here with modest maintenance budgets on clayey-loam parcels of land.
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Ryan Coles

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Re: Best courses on clay, without huge maintenance budgets...
« Reply #5 on: August 27, 2014, 08:35:03 PM »
Methinks you don't have to have a massive budget to dump sand on the entire course.

My modest club does it spring and fall, provided we have full membership, thereby giving sufficient funds. Was always done before the great recession. Since the great recession only sparingly, but membership is growing again.


Seems expensive to me. Verti draining fairways whilst slow is widely done in my local area, but none that I know of top dress. Ignoring the labour cost, the amount of dressing needed would wipe out an average uk budget. Most wont put 100 tonne pa on greens.

One mans modest is another's extravagant, I suppose.

Garland Bayley

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Re: Best courses on clay, without huge maintenance budgets...
« Reply #6 on: August 27, 2014, 08:38:20 PM »
I suppose the poster child for this category would be Old Works, as the environmental remediation for the copper smelter required capping the whole thing with heavy clay (don't remember the depth).

Also, Pete Dye Golf club to reclaim coal mining.
"I enjoy a course where the challenges are contained WITHIN it, and recovery is part of the game  not a course where the challenge is to stay ON it." Jeff Warne

Garland Bayley

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Re: Best courses on clay, without huge maintenance budgets...
« Reply #7 on: August 27, 2014, 08:41:29 PM »
... Ignoring the labour cost, the amount of dressing needed would wipe out an average uk budget. ...

Do you know what a manure spreader is? The job with an analogous sand spreader takes a day maybe two. You are not trying to cap the course, just add some sand. It improves gradually over the years.
"I enjoy a course where the challenges are contained WITHIN it, and recovery is part of the game  not a course where the challenge is to stay ON it." Jeff Warne

Ryan Coles

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Re: Best courses on clay, without huge maintenance budgets...
« Reply #8 on: August 27, 2014, 08:45:24 PM »
... Ignoring the labour cost, the amount of dressing needed would wipe out an average uk budget. ...

Do you know what a manure spreader is? The job with an analogous sand spreader takes a day maybe two. You are not trying to cap the course, just add some sand. It improves gradually over the years.


How many tonnes of sand roughly?

Tyler referred to aerate and backfill.

« Last Edit: August 27, 2014, 08:47:13 PM by Ryan Coles »

Tom Bacsanyi

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Re: Best courses on clay, without huge maintenance budgets...
« Reply #9 on: August 27, 2014, 10:52:44 PM »
I disagree with the idea that sand topdressing is only possible for high-end courses.  I think it's all about priorities.  The clientele at most lower budget places probably won't bitch about the lack of firm turf.  They are more likely to gripe about slow greens, bad lies in bunkers, and rough that's too thick, so that's where those places choose spend their dollars.  I work at a higher-end facility on CO Rocky Mountain clay, which drains quite poorly, and I believe our property doesn't do NEAR enough topdressing on fairways, tees, and approaches.  Greens get an appropriate amount.  My philosophy on great greenskeeping can be summarized by the 4 T's.  Topdress, topdress, topdress and topdress.

Another issue is irrigation.  A higher end facility has the manpower to do a lot of supplemental hand watering, while a lower budget facility might not.  Therefore the higher end property can irrigate sparingly and hit the persistently dry areas with hoses, while a lower budget facility usually has to blast out enough water so that swaths of the course don't die.  Of course this means that some areas will be gooey because uniform distribution of irrigation water is an impossibility. 
Don't play too much golf. Two rounds a day are plenty.

--Harry Vardon

Andrew Buck

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Re: Best courses on clay, without huge maintenance budgets...
« Reply #10 on: August 27, 2014, 11:47:06 PM »
I did search and search and found nothing... so after reading Ran's article on Erin Hills and wondering, again, why anyone ever tries to build golf courses on clay... I wonder what really good courses out there, without massive maintenance budgets (like Merion) allowing them to dump sand on top of the whole course, are on clay?

Why try?  Because most of the Midwest is clay and if you want to golf that's your option.

I know of three local clubs that top dress regularly with maintenance budgets under $350k. 

Ryan Coles

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Re: Best courses on clay, without huge maintenance budgets...
« Reply #11 on: August 28, 2014, 12:13:41 AM »
I did search and search and found nothing... so after reading Ran's article on Erin Hills and wondering, again, why anyone ever tries to build golf courses on clay... I wonder what really good courses out there, without massive maintenance budgets (like Merion) allowing them to dump sand on top of the whole course, are on clay?

Why try?  Because most of the Midwest is clay and if you want to golf that's your option.

I know of three local clubs that top dress regularly with maintenance budgets under $350k. 

£210,000 is very much high end course budget in the UK.

Clay plays plenty firm and fast in the summer. Not many, if any greats on Clay, but plenty of very nice courses for 9 months of the year.

Jon Wiggett

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Re: Best courses on clay, without huge maintenance budgets...
« Reply #12 on: August 28, 2014, 03:44:58 AM »
I seem to recall it been said on another thread that some of the heath courses around London are on clay. It should be pointed out that with decent drainage a lot of clay soils will drain fine. Ryan, I think the definition of low budget in the US is very different to in the UK. I could not afford to topdress my fairways and I know of very few clubs who an in the UK.

Jon

Adam Warren

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Re: Best courses on clay, without huge maintenance budgets...
« Reply #13 on: August 28, 2014, 01:24:49 PM »
Might add to the thought there aren't any greats, but just about anything in Tennessee or Kentucky would be on clay...

Anthony_Nysse

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Re: Best courses on clay, without huge maintenance budgets...
« Reply #14 on: August 28, 2014, 01:43:59 PM »
The problem with topdressing on clay is once you start, you really have to continue or your creating a bigger problem. Topdressing in the Midwest 1x a year is much different than on bermudagrass courses or topdressing fairways every 3 weeks in the north. All depends on the quality of sand. Putting down a sand with a lot of "fines" isn't going to do much but lock up pore space and NOT allow the surface to drain. Fine sand is usually the cheapest though. $22-24/ton is a sand on the cheaper end, down here. Topdress 2-3x a summer at 7-8tons an acre and it can add up quickly.
Anthony J. Nysse
Director of Golf Courses & Grounds
Apogee Club
Hobe Sound, FL

Garland Bayley

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Re: Best courses on clay, without huge maintenance budgets...
« Reply #15 on: August 28, 2014, 01:50:04 PM »
... Ignoring the labour cost, the amount of dressing needed would wipe out an average uk budget. ...

Do you know what a manure spreader is? The job with an analogous sand spreader takes a day maybe two. You are not trying to cap the course, just add some sand. It improves gradually over the years.


How many tonnes of sand roughly?

Tyler referred to aerate and backfill.



I don't know. This thing filled.

"I enjoy a course where the challenges are contained WITHIN it, and recovery is part of the game  not a course where the challenge is to stay ON it." Jeff Warne

Stuart Hallett

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Re: Best courses on clay, without huge maintenance budgets...
« Reply #16 on: August 28, 2014, 03:52:55 PM »
Saint Germain !
Clay sub-soil & sometimes heavy in places.
I don't feel free to disclose budgets, but it's certainly not big.

Frank Pont

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Re: Best courses on clay, without huge maintenance budgets...
« Reply #17 on: August 29, 2014, 04:36:07 PM »
Walton Heath

Ryan Coles

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Re: Best courses on clay, without huge maintenance budgets...
« Reply #18 on: August 29, 2014, 04:39:18 PM »
Does heather grow or can it be sustained on clay?

Adam Lawrence

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Re: Best courses on clay, without huge maintenance budgets...
« Reply #19 on: August 29, 2014, 05:04:04 PM »
The rather large stand of heather at Walton suggests it can.
Adam Lawrence

Editor, Golf Course Architecture
www.golfcoursearchitecture.net

Principal, Oxford Golf Consulting
www.oxfordgolfconsulting.com

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Short words are best, and the old words, when short, are the best of all.

Paul Gray

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Re: Best courses on clay, without huge maintenance budgets...
« Reply #20 on: August 29, 2014, 05:22:00 PM »
I may be miles off here but doesn't the Surrey heathland have a fairly acidic element to it? Whilst the clay may be present, the acidity means a large number of other plants won't do too well, hence the success of the heather. It's a common misconception that heather will only grow on nutrient POOR sites; it'll grow almost anywhere but will inevitably lose out to other plants in more nutrient rich areas.
In the places where golf cuts through pretension and elitism, it thrives and will continue to thrive because the simple virtues of the game and its attendant culture are allowed to be most apparent. - Tim Gavrich

Tyler Kearns

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Re: Best courses on clay, without huge maintenance budgets...
« Reply #21 on: August 29, 2014, 05:23:24 PM »
... Ignoring the labour cost, the amount of dressing needed would wipe out an average uk budget. ...

Do you know what a manure spreader is? The job with an analogous sand spreader takes a day maybe two. You are not trying to cap the course, just add some sand. It improves gradually over the years.


How many tonnes of sand roughly?

Tyler referred to aerate and backfill.



Ryan,

I don't know exactly how many tonnes or cubic yards are used each year, however, the total cost to aerate all fairways, clean-up plugs, add topdressing sand is approx. $20,000.  After about 8 years of this program, we have a nice layer of sand on top of the clay, allowing for much improved drainage and better turf.

TK

Ryan Coles

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Re: Best courses on clay, without huge maintenance budgets...
« Reply #22 on: August 29, 2014, 05:46:15 PM »
The rather large stand of heather at Walton suggests it can.

Which also suggests Walton Heath isn't really clay.

Paul Gray

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Re: Best courses on clay, without huge maintenance budgets...
« Reply #23 on: August 29, 2014, 06:02:49 PM »
The rather large stand of heather at Walton suggests it can.

Which also suggests Walton Heath isn't really clay.

I believe Sean knows the soil at Walton Heath better than most.
In the places where golf cuts through pretension and elitism, it thrives and will continue to thrive because the simple virtues of the game and its attendant culture are allowed to be most apparent. - Tim Gavrich

Ryan Coles

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Re: Best courses on clay, without huge maintenance budgets...
« Reply #24 on: August 29, 2014, 06:20:39 PM »
No doubt he does. If it is clay, as a playing surface it plays nothing like other clay-based courses.


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