[Mark Pritchett]

How about the original Rolling Rock nine? 

[Cliff Hamm]

Is anyone going to stick to the topic of the thread?

[Jim_Kennedy]

So Hotchkiss is not worthy of consideration?     

Thank you Bill, but we're happily ensconced at #22.

I'm interested to see which of the two contenders prevails.   



 

[Anthony Fowler]

Tom, I have played Whitinsville, and I will play the Dunes Club next week, so I look forward to chiming in late.

I think the first hole at Whitinsville is spectacular, so if you think that some people will prefer the first at Dunes, I can't wait to see it. The green really defines the character of the hole. It is so severely sloped from back to front and there are plenty of bumps and internal rolls. The severity makes you think about it all the way back at the tee, because you don't want to spin your wedge shot off the green, but you REALLY don't want to miss long. In this way, the hole is not unlike the 8th at Crystal Downs. You have to position each shot properly and then navigate a severe, exciting green once you get to it. Everyone talks about #2 and #9 at Whitinsville (as they should), but I think #1 should be a big part of the discussion as well.

[Cliff Hamm]

Anthony, nine is often talked about, but two? My favorite hole on the course is six.

Anyway, here is a photo tour that Mark Salzman did:

http://www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,56830.0.html

[Jaeger Kovich]

+1 Whitinsville... I like how it gives you a sneak of the super famous #9. The first at The Dunes sorta gives you a glimpse of the water about the only time on the property, but not enough to add anything... The first tee complex at the dunes is cool how it works w the clubhouse and the practice tee, but the hole in Mass is better

[Chris DeToro]

I actually think 5 might be my favorite hole at Whitinsville...it's a tough call though.  6 is very good as is 1, 8 and 9

[Tom_Doak]

SCORECARD OF THE MATCH

Hole          Doak               Kovich             Messix               Fowler

  1            W + 1             W + 1              W + 1              W + 1
  2            W + 2             W + 2              D  a/s               halved
  3            D  -  1             D  -  1              D + 1               D  a/s

  4            D  a/s              D  a/s              D + 2               D + 1
  5            W + 1             W + 1              halved              W a/s
  6            W + 2             halved              W - 1               halved

  7            W + 3             D  a/s              W  a/s              D + 1
  8            D  -  2             D + 1              D + 1               D + 2
  9            W + 3             W a/s              W  a/s              W -  1

[Matt Glore]

When you score a hole at Dunes Club do you take the best teeing area on all 9 holes as it really changes on a few holes?  Will you score #2 as a whole vs #2 Whitinsville or the favorite tee box at #2 Dunes, and would the option of having two different #2s factor into the score?

[Peter Pallotta]

Maybe this should be Ran's new criteria for joining the discussion board - i.e. have you played both the Dunes Club and
Whitinsville?  That should keep the numbers down....

(Existing members are grandfathered in....lest the discussion board drops down to 6 members and Tom is left to compliment his own courses )

Peter

[Tom_Doak]

When you score a hole at Dunes Club do you take the best teeing area on all 9 holes as it really changes on a few holes?  Will you score #2 as a whole vs #2 Whitinsville or the favorite tee box at #2 Dunes, and would the option of having two different #2s factor into the score?

We will factor in the optional teeing grounds for some holes for the added variety they offer.  But you can only play them one at a time.

[Anthony Fowler]

Anthony, nine is often talked about, but two? My favorite hole on the course is six.

I really like 6 as well, so no disagreement there. Maybe we should wait until we get to #2 to discuss the hole in more detail. For me, it's one of those great, classic, Ross, New England, short par 3's (comparable to the 3rd at Wannamoisett). Lore around Whitinsville is that Crenshaw lobbied for both 2 and 9 to be included on one of Golf Magazine's lists of the best holes, but they couldn't justify having 2 holes from some unknown 9 hole course! I have no idea if that story is true, but my impression from talking to a few of the members is that they think of both 2 and 9 as their masterpiece holes.

Also, if we're going to give the Dunes Club credit for variety of teeing options (which we should), we should also point out that at Whitinsville, the members also typically play the course twice and switch tees. On some holes, the tees are not very far apart, but on other holes there is a significant difference. For example, 1 plays very differently from the different tees (a great three-shot hole from about 575 and a potentially reachable but still challenging hole from the front tee--maybe 520). I also remember a big difference between the tee boxes on 5.

[Tom_Doak]

Well, then, on to the second holes.  Both are par-3's.

Whitinsville's 2nd is a fairly short par-3, playing slightly downhill to a raised plateau green along the top of a small ridge.  Miss the green by a couple of yards short or long, and you're playing from a bunker; mis-club by more than that, and you're pitching up over the bunker from further below.  I agree with Anthony's take that it's one of the best holes on the course.

The case of the 2nd at The Dunes Club rests on its two teeing grounds, which are 90 degrees apart and provide very different angles of approach to the green, either of them skirting a large patch of open sand which stretches back toward the tee.  It's been a while since I played this hole [on my last visit, I played #4 through #9 after arriving late], but I don't remember the green as being anything special, or making the most of the two different approach angles.  [Also, one tee is quite close to #1 green, but the other is quite a long walk.]

For me, the green complex at Whitinsville trumps the alternate tee at The Dunes.  Whitinsville +2


Note:  I just noticed that Adam Messix has forwarded me his match play card; says he will check in to comment when he can.  I will post his result with mine as we go.  He had Whitinsville winning the first hole, but The Dunes evening the match on #2.

[John Foley]

Love #2 at Whitinsville - the slightly down hill tee shot - the thinking on the tee that this will be an easy shot and how much trouble abounds.

Two questiosn

1-Is it better than #3 @  Wannamoisett?
2- How original is the green complex - any work done on it since Ross's day?

[Amol Yajnik]

I'm loving this thread as I'm about an hour away from Whitinsville, I think I need to make the trek out there to play it sooner rather than later.

[Chris DeToro]

1-Is it better than #3 @  Wannamoisett?

I much prefer #3 at Wannmoisett.  Yardage wise, it's a bit shorter than Whitinsville, but it requires a much more exacting shot in my opinion.  Even if you hit the green, a 2-putt is not a given from beyond the flag and getting up and down from the bunker on the left is incredibly challenging.  Not only that, but I've seen shots bound off the right ridge of the green and into the hazard on dryer days.

[Tom_Doak]

Love #2 at Whitinsville - the slightly down hill tee shot - the thinking on the tee that this will be an easy shot and how much trouble abounds.

Two questiosn

1-Is it better than #3 @  Wannamoisett?
2- How original is the green complex - any work done on it since Ross's day?

I don't think it's better than #3 at Wannamoisett, where there is more premium on a straight tee shot.  But both are fine holes.

[Jaeger Kovich]

+2 Whitinsville... Aesthetics are clearly better at The Dunes, but the walk (routing) is a negative here. I like the simplicity in Whitinsville's short hole.

[Tom_Doak]

On to the third hole ...

You have to cross the road to play holes 3 & 4 at Whitinsville, so they start off feeling a bit disconnected from the wonderfully-fitting puzzle pieces on the main part of the property.  The par-4 3rd has been pegged by me before as the one weak hole on the course.  It's not an easy hole ... a medium-length straightaway par-4 playing slightly uphill, to an elevated green with a steep hillside behind it.  It's a back to front green with quite a bit of sideslope as well, but I haven't had the impression that you need to drive to one side to tame the approach.

The 3rd at The Dunes Club is the first of two excellent par-5 holes, which are one of the strengths of the course.  The second shot has to carry a sandy cross hazard [Hell's Quarter Acre?] and the landing area on the far side is not overly generous, either.  I don't remember this green as well as some others, but it's a fine three-shotter.

I have The Dunes Club winning hole #3, to pull back to one down.  Adam has The Dunes winning as well, +1 on his card.

[Peter Pallotta]

Just an aside - excuse the interruption. I've been a bit surprised by the way Tom describes/analyzes/compares the holes in this kind of head-to-head match. I'm not sure what I was expecting, but this direct and practical approach to playing the golf holes, e.g. "the second shot has to carry a sandy cross hazard",  "it's a back to front green with quite a bit of sideslope", is somehow not how I thought TD would come at this.

Peter

[Tom_Doak]

Just an aside - excuse the interruption. I've been a bit surprised by the way Tom describes/analyzes/compares the holes in this kind of head-to-head match. I'm not sure what I was expecting, but this direct and practical approach to playing the golf holes, e.g. "the second shot has to carry a sandy cross hazard",  "it's a back to front green with quite a bit of sideslope", is somehow not how I thought TD would come at this.

Peter

Peter:

Interesting.  If I was comparing the courses overall, my style would be somewhat different -- I would be more inclined to talk about the style of bunkering and greens, and talk about the holes as groups [that The Dunes has two fine par-5's, Whitinsville has only one].  But then everybody would have to trust my overall grade for the two courses.  Instead, this a head-to-head match play of golf holes; I don't know how else I would do it.

[Peter Pallotta]

Tom - I'm not sure either what I was expecting or how you would/could approach a head-to-head differently. But I was struck by the absence so far of both an "architect's approach" and a "gca critic's approach".  For example, so far I've not read any mentions of how effectively the sites' features were utilized in crafting the green sites, or about the strategic options/risk-rewards in the Par 5s -- both kinds of comments often being at the heart of many a discussion/analysis/head-to-head comparison around here.

In other words (and remembering Tom Huckaby's approach), you seem to analyzing/comparing the golf courses and not the designs, and doing so in a very clear cut way.  

That's not a criticism of your approach, but again just a bit of a surprise for me. I found myself thinking: if I ever played two of your courses and you asked me to have them go head-to-head, I'd probably feel compelled to analyze much more "deeply" in search of some subtle but crucial differences in the designs, e.g. noting how a hole on one course was more strategic than on the other, or praising the use of the natural features on one hole and not the other -- while for all your experience and expertise in and writings on gca, you seem to be keeping it as simple as "this hole works this way, that hole works that way, for me I like the first way better".

It is as if this head to head approach is mostly in terms of, egad, "shot values"!  

Peter

[JMEvensky]

Same as Peter--I was expecting you to wear your architect's hat only.

Not that there's anything wrong with a player's perspective.

[Pete Lavallee]

If the third at Whitinsville is the weakest hole on that course, it sure says a lot about how good the rest of those holes are! Some course would proudly point to it it as one of their best. Last Oct I had a putt from the front of #3 to a back center hole location. I left it 5 feet short (it's hard to judge just how much uphill that green is) and had the ball roll back to my feet. On my second go around on the back nine I knew what had to be done and had the same thing happen, the ball simply MUST be played to or past the hole to keep from being degreened; a fine golf hole.

[Tom_Doak]

Same as Peter--I was expecting you to wear your architect's hat only.

Not that there's anything wrong with a player's perspective.

Okay, I will try to do that at the end, to see if the two approaches differ in terms of results.

I do think you're making a bit more of the difference than there is ... a lot of architecture IS about how the individual holes play.

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