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Gary Sato

Tom Fazio doesn't give a s*^t about Seth Raynor
« on: July 30, 2014, 06:15:11 PM »
Has anyone seen the new renovation plans Tom Fazio has devised for the Dunes Course at Monterey Peninsula CC?

Similar to what he has done at Spyglass which is discussed on Matt Cohns post, Tom Fazio has convinced the board that salvaging the Raynor style is not worth saving.  Using the existing Raynor routing he can place his style golf course on the property which will be a gem. He has been conducting tours for the members recently and they have bought his BS lock, stock and barrel.

Good bye Seth Raynor.

Does anyone see a trend.  Fazio has imposed his style at Spyglass, Merion, Pine Valley, Oakmont, Riviera and Bel Air among others.

« Last Edit: July 30, 2014, 06:54:02 PM by Gary Sato »
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Bill_McBride

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Tom Fazio doesn't give a s*^t about Seth Raynor
« Reply #1 on: July 30, 2014, 06:17:43 PM »
Quote from: Gary Sato on July 30, 2014, 06:15:11 PM
Has anyone seen the new renovation plans Tom Fazio has devised for the Shore Course at Monterey Peninsula CC?

Similar to what he has done at Spyglass which is discussed on Matt Cohns post, Tom Fazio has convinced the board that salvaging the Raynor style is not worth saving.  Using the existing Raynor routing he can place his style golf course on the property which will be a gem. He has been conducting tours for the members recently and they have bought his BS lock, stock and barrel.

Good bye Seth Raynor.

Does anyone see a trend.  Fazio has imposed his style at Spyglass, Merion, Pine Valley, Oakmont, Riviera and Bel Air among others.



What did he do at Oakmont?   :o.  First I heard about that. 
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Rob Curtiss

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Tom Fazio doesn't give a s*^t about Seth Raynor
« Reply #2 on: July 30, 2014, 06:23:05 PM »
Do you mean the Dunes course- Strantz re did the Shore course already
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Jon Cavalier

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Tom Fazio doesn't give a s*^t about Seth Raynor
« Reply #3 on: July 30, 2014, 06:30:07 PM »
Jesus. When is this happening, and how long do I have to get out there?
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Bob_Huntley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Tom Fazio doesn't give a s*^t about Seth Raynor
« Reply #4 on: July 30, 2014, 06:33:44 PM »
Somewhere in the Search section there has been a plethora of posts concerning the Dunes Course, both about the original Dunes and Rees Jones work.

I must say that the Fazio presentation sounds terribly expensive.

Bob
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Gary Sato

Re: Tom Fazio doesn't give a s*^t about Seth Raynor
« Reply #5 on: July 30, 2014, 06:59:19 PM »
Quote from: Rob Curtiss on July 30, 2014, 06:23:05 PM
Do you mean the Dunes course- Strantz re did the Shore course already

Mistake corrected.

Mr. Huntley, I heard $9 to $11 million?  Again what was proposed to be tweaking and some small renovation has now been blown into a full fledged renovation.  In typical Fazio style he has turned a small project into a large project.

Mr. McBride.  Fazio has been the consulting architect at Oakmont for several years.  He has attempted to restore the bunkers, some of which have gone horribly wrong.
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Anthony_Nysse

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Tom Fazio doesn't give a s*^t about Seth Raynor
« Reply #6 on: July 30, 2014, 07:03:30 PM »
Thought Marzolf had been doing the work both before the 2007 open and recently.
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Anthony J. Nysse
Director of Golf Courses & Grounds
Apogee Club
Hobe Sound, FL

Jud_T

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Tom Fazio doesn't give a s*^t about Seth Raynor
« Reply #7 on: July 30, 2014, 07:15:48 PM »
This project aside, maybe one of the biggest problems with Fazio is that he doesn't give a s$&@ about Seth Raynor, although I'm sure his accountant and banker would disagree.  Karma can be a bitch...
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Jay Mickle

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Tom Fazio doesn't give a s*^t about Seth Raynor
« Reply #8 on: July 30, 2014, 07:21:45 PM »
Let's not forget the 140 pot bunkers that he dotted Ross's Pinehurst #4 with.
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jeffwarne

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Tom Fazio doesn't give a s*^t about Seth Raynor
« Reply #9 on: July 30, 2014, 07:28:45 PM »
perhaps Tom Fazio doesn't give a s*^t about Rees Jones?
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"Let's slow the damned greens down a bit, not take the character out of them." Tom Doak
"Take their focus off the grass and put it squarely on interesting golf." Don Mahaffey

Chris Mavros

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Tom Fazio doesn't give a s*^t about Seth Raynor
« Reply #10 on: July 30, 2014, 07:47:46 PM »
Ugh.  This is real disappointing, and not all that surprising, to hear.
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Bob_Huntley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Tom Fazio doesn't give a s*^t about Seth Raynor
« Reply #11 on: July 30, 2014, 08:13:01 PM »

What is really interesting is that three or four years ago the Club hired George Bahto to see how much of Seth Raynor's stamp was still intact.

May be George kept a record of his day spent at the club. I followed him around for a few holes and pointed out some changes that had been made over the years.

Bob
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Mike Sweeney

Re: Tom Fazio doesn't give a s*^t about Seth Raynor
« Reply #12 on: July 30, 2014, 08:15:59 PM »
I like to poke fun at our little asylum here on GCA, but I have a unique affilation with:

  • Monterrey Peninsula
  • Robert Huntley
  • Seth Raynor
  • MPCC


I am serious, how can we change this process?

The great thing about MPCC was/is the diversity between the old school Raynor course versus the now new school Strantz course.

Gib ?

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Mike_Young

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Tom Fazio doesn't give a s*^t about Seth Raynor
« Reply #13 on: July 30, 2014, 08:20:34 PM »
Quote from: jeffwarne on July 30, 2014, 07:28:45 PM
perhaps Tom Fazio doesn't give a s*^t about Rees Jones?

I'm sure this will be taken as anti Raynor, but why should Fazio care?  The member I played with last year was excited that Fazio was involved....we just can't tell people what to do with their places...
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Mike Sweeney

Re: Tom Fazio doesn't give a s*^t about Seth Raynor
« Reply #14 on: July 30, 2014, 08:32:48 PM »
Quote from: Mike_Young on July 30, 2014, 08:20:34 PM
Quote from: jeffwarne on July 30, 2014, 07:28:45 PM
perhaps Tom Fazio doesn't give a s*^t about Rees Jones?

I'm sure this will be taken as anti Raynor, but why should Fazio care?  The member I played with last year was excited that Fazio was involved....we just can't tell people what to do with their places...

Bullcrap or whatever is the equivalent in The South.  :D I grew up summers on The Jersey Shore, and anything within 5 miles of the coast is an open debate!

I get it. I have a privileged life that I actually care about stupid stuff like Seth Raynor renovations. However, I have a unique perspective in that I have seen a number of Raynor renovations (Mountain Lake, Yale, and Southampton) where the economics favor the historical restoration over the renovation.

Put me in touch with that member!
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Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +1/-1
Re: Tom Fazio doesn't give a s*^t about Seth Raynor
« Reply #15 on: July 30, 2014, 08:55:16 PM »
The thread title is spot on, and so is Mike Young's comment.

To me, it sounds like the perfect match -- both the membership and the architect have the same priorities.  Quality is all about the greenbacks.

They are the last club that I can imagine doing a Seth Raynor restoration.  And, honestly, I am not sure that would be the best use of the ground.  They had Alister MacKenzie there in the late twenties -- after Raynor died with the course unfinished -- but MacKenzie didn't get along with somebody at the club, so his involvement ended almost as quickly as it began.

Mike Sweeney:  I don't know what your unique affiliation is with MPCC, but if you are going to try to convince them to emulate Mountain Lake, Yale, or Southampton, I don't think you know them that well.  My impression is that it is not the same sort of membership at all.
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Bill_McBride

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Tom Fazio doesn't give a s*^t about Seth Raynor
« Reply #16 on: July 30, 2014, 08:56:25 PM »
Quote from: Bob_Huntley on July 30, 2014, 08:13:01 PM

What is really interesting is that three or four years ago the Club hired George Bahto to see how much of Seth Raynor's stamp was still intact.

May be George kept a record of his day spent at the club. I followed him around for a few holes and pointed out some changes that had been made over the years.

Bob

Bob, did George ever submit a report?   That would be priceless.  
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Mike_Young

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Tom Fazio doesn't give a s*^t about Seth Raynor
« Reply #17 on: July 30, 2014, 09:01:41 PM »
Michael,  I sent you a PM....

Bill,
Priceless may not be the right word ;D
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jeffwarne

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Tom Fazio doesn't give a s*^t about Seth Raynor
« Reply #18 on: July 30, 2014, 09:06:19 PM »
No doubt Mr. Fazio did a little "educating" (see prior thread)
the cycle continues....
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"Let's slow the damned greens down a bit, not take the character out of them." Tom Doak
"Take their focus off the grass and put it squarely on interesting golf." Don Mahaffey

Jay Flemma

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Tom Fazio doesn't give a s*^t about Seth Raynor
« Reply #19 on: July 30, 2014, 09:09:52 PM »
Absolutely...at an interview he gave at Blarney Stone...errr...Turning Stone, he specifically said that with regard to Macdonald Raynor and Banks, these words - "We've had enough of that."

Who, specifically, went sick in the head and picked him to make the changes?
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Peter Pallotta

Re: Tom Fazio doesn't give a s*^t about Seth Raynor
« Reply #20 on: July 30, 2014, 09:28:36 PM »
To borrow from myself and another thread: this sounds like a case of the personal not so much acceding to the collective but actually celebrating together with it the death of any sense of a unique vision, past or present. It sounds like a dance of self-congratulation over the fact that the collective can rightly claim to have actually absorbed the personal, and made the concept itself unworthy of discussion.

Peter
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Mike Sweeney

Re: Tom Fazio doesn't give a s*^t about Seth Raynor
« Reply #21 on: July 30, 2014, 09:45:23 PM »
Quote from: Tom_Doak on July 30, 2014, 08:55:16 PM
Quality is all about the greenbacks.

Mike Sweeney:  I don't know what your unique affiliation is with MPCC, but if you are going to try to convince them to emulate Mountain Lake, Yale, or Southampton, I don't think you know them that well.  My impression is that it is not the same sort of membership at all.

Tom,

There is already a Tom Fazio on The MP. How many times have we seen this? 2035, they hire George Bahto's nephew to renovate the course back to Raynor. Let's skip that step in between.
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Dean Stokes

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Tom Fazio doesn't give a s*^t about Seth Raynor
« Reply #22 on: July 31, 2014, 02:01:28 PM »
Quote from: Mike_Young on July 30, 2014, 08:20:34 PM
Quote from: jeffwarne on July 30, 2014, 07:28:45 PM
perhaps Tom Fazio doesn't give a s*^t about Rees Jones?

I'm sure this will be taken as anti Raynor, but why should Fazio care?  The member I played with last year was excited that Fazio was involved....we just can't tell people what to do with their places...
I am with Mike on this....sounds like great business by TF and apart from 1500 people on this website I am sure no one cares about Raynor. Just saying......
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Josh Bills

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Tom Fazio doesn't give a s*^t about Seth Raynor
« Reply #23 on: July 31, 2014, 02:14:44 PM »
Looks like Jackson Kahn Golf Course Design is collaborating in this Fazio redesign.  Some of the photos look interesting, but please make your own call.

http://www.jacksonkahndesign.com/mpcc.html
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Paul Richards

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Tom Fazio doesn't give a s*^t about Seth Raynor
« Reply #24 on: July 31, 2014, 02:18:20 PM »
Nothing new here.  Fazio told us that he didn't care about the old-time architects at a retreat at Pinehurst in 2003.  I bet you can still find threads that talk about this....
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"Something has to change, otherwise the never-ending arms race that benefits only a few manufacturers will continue to lead to longer courses, narrower fairways, smaller greens, more rough, more expensive rounds, and other mechanisms that will leave golf's future in doubt." -  TFOG
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