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Terry Lavin

  • Karma: +0/-0
Russian Open in Moscow
« on: July 25, 2014, 08:48:46 AM »
The European Tour is playing in Moscow on a 7500 yard Nicklaus charmer. Watching the coverage, there must be a dozen spectators following the golfers. What genius is responsible for this planning? 
Nobody ever went broke underestimating the intelligence of the American people.  H.L. Mencken

Adam Clayman

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Russian Open in Moscow
« Reply #1 on: July 25, 2014, 09:33:58 AM »
I think it's a gov't conspiracy. That looks like Florida golf. I didn't know it was a JN until I read your post, Terry.

Great to see there's a new market for the nostalgic design principles of the 80's. Oh wait, was that a horse shoe green with center green front bunker ala C&C?
"It's unbelievable how much you don't know about the game you've been playing your whole life." - Mickey Mantle

Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +1/-1
Re: Russian Open in Moscow
« Reply #2 on: July 25, 2014, 09:40:21 AM »
What genius is responsible for this planning? 

As much as people discuss here what courses are "worthy" to host a tournament, the decision is usually made by whoever puts up enough money to sponsor the event.  I hear there are a few guys in Russia with plenty of money to sponsor a golf tournament, and not care if there's a gallery.

David_Tepper

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Russian Open in Moscow
« Reply #3 on: July 25, 2014, 09:55:36 AM »
Based on what I saw yesterday of the British Senior Open on TV, the galleries at Royal Portcawl were not especially robust either.

astavrides

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Russian Open in Moscow
« Reply #4 on: July 25, 2014, 10:08:48 AM »
Lots of scores in the 80's and a couple 93's among the Russians in the field. Some players packing their own bags too--no caddies.

RJ_Daley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Russian Open in Moscow
« Reply #5 on: July 25, 2014, 10:22:58 AM »
Too bad any Euro-GB&I players attended at all.
No actual golf rounds were ruined or delayed, nor golf rules broken, in the taking of any photographs that may be displayed by the above forum user.

Rees Milikin

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Russian Open in Moscow
« Reply #6 on: July 25, 2014, 11:11:57 AM »
Too bad any Euro-GB&I players attended at all.

I agree, especially the Dutch players.

Paul Gray

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Russian Open in Moscow
« Reply #7 on: July 25, 2014, 05:36:06 PM »
Too bad any Euro-GB&I players attended at all.

I agree, especially the Dutch players.

Yep, with events like this it's difficult to understand why the best players now play on the PGA Tour. Who wouldn't want to hop on a plane to Russia to play in this humdinger of an event. 
In the places where golf cuts through pretension and elitism, it thrives and will continue to thrive because the simple virtues of the game and its attendant culture are allowed to be most apparent. - Tim Gavrich

Michael Goldstein

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Russian Open in Moscow
« Reply #8 on: July 25, 2014, 10:09:38 PM »
Do you guys criticise anyone who works in Russia?

These guys have to make a living.
@Pure_Golf

Paul Gray

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Russian Open in Moscow
« Reply #9 on: July 26, 2014, 04:53:14 AM »
Michael,

For me personally this isn't about Russia but about the willingness of the tour to prostitute the roundshow to just about anyone prepared to cough up the fee. It's bad enough seeing the weekly procession on the PGA Tour as the pros trudge out 36 or 72 holes on courses set up to avoid mental application. Seeing the same on lesser courses in the B league is doing nothing for the game.
In the places where golf cuts through pretension and elitism, it thrives and will continue to thrive because the simple virtues of the game and its attendant culture are allowed to be most apparent. - Tim Gavrich

Ivan Lipko

Re: Russian Open in Moscow
« Reply #10 on: July 26, 2014, 05:45:20 AM »
What are your concerns about this event??  You didn't like the fact that it is held in Russia? or is it the lack of spectators? or do you think the course design is bad?

The course itself doesn't look like a FL golf. More like a Muirfield Village, which is also a JN creation btw.

Ronald Montesano

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Russian Open in Moscow
« Reply #11 on: July 26, 2014, 06:17:31 AM »
Russia's press in the west isn't a shining beacon of civil rights and cooperation of late. Understand why some might use that to show dislike for the event. Not that Russia is the first host to be less than civil in the history of sport.

The comment on "prostituting the roundshow" may be the first time those words have been used together on this DB. It is substantively ingenuous, as it happens all the time on all professional golf tours. Tom Doak has mentioned time and again, including on this thread, that what GCA aficionados perceive to be great, and what can functionally host a tournament, most often trace separate orbits.

"Humdinger of an event" is also quite humorous. Actually, it's really condescending and politics aside, is insulting. What would you suggest to make it a positive humdinger of an event? They can't all be John Deere Classics or Barracuda Championships, can they?

This event falls the week after a major championship. Notice that McIlroy, Garcia and Fowler are not playing in the USA either. Many of the top-shelf principles are taking the week off. Both the Canadian Open and the Russian Open suffer as a result (hence the inclusion of Yegeny Kefelnikov in the RO field.)

The USPGA championship, a major, will be held in three-weeks time in the USA. Makes sense that all the world's players would migrate toward North America and away from Europe/Asia.

Is there some other course in Russia, steeped in golfing tradition, reeking of the origins of the game, that has been slighted?

Not our best thread.

(And a quick heads-up for those who might ask, has this guy appointed himself the ombudsman of GCA? The answer is no. I won't sit idle, though, when I read something that deserves a comeuppance. I encourage others to join me.)
Coming in August 2023
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~Sleepy Hollow (OH)

Steve Okula

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Russian Open in Moscow
« Reply #12 on: July 26, 2014, 06:19:17 AM »
Do you guys criticise anyone who works in Russia?

These guys have to make a living.

Exactly so. The Tour and its players have to make ends meet, they're not all rolling in high cotton, and they are not in a position to stand on dubious political or ethical considerations. The prize money is the same regardless of spectators or course design.
The small wheel turns by the fire and rod,
the big wheel turns by the grace of God.

Mike Sweeney

Re: Russian Open in Moscow
« Reply #13 on: July 26, 2014, 06:34:38 AM »
What genius is responsible for this planning? 




Jud_T

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Russian Open in Moscow
« Reply #14 on: July 26, 2014, 09:07:09 AM »
Michael,

For me personally this isn't about Russia but about the willingness of the tour to prostitute the roundshow to just about anyone prepared to cough up the fee.

Thank god the Ryder Cup is around the corner...Not a whiff of capitalism thereabouts.  Personally I feel comforted that I can wear a local logoed Nicklaus shirt on my way to get a Big Mac and a Coke on every continent. 
Golf is a game. We play it. Somewhere along the way we took the fun out of it and charged a premium to be punished.- - Ron Sirak

Brent Hutto

Re: Russian Open in Moscow
« Reply #15 on: July 26, 2014, 09:30:45 AM »
The European Tour holding a tournament where someone is willing to pay to see them play is exactly the same as a singer singing where someone is willing to pay to hear them sing.

I can't see how holding an event for "European" professional golfers to play four rounds on television is somehow less legitimate because it's on a lackluster course in Moscow. Isn't Moscow in "Europe"? Since when is Abu Dhabi in "Europe" anyway?

jeffwarne

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Russian Open in Moscow
« Reply #16 on: July 26, 2014, 10:28:55 AM »
What exactly is the problem?
Somebody is willing to sponsor the event.
Some players are willing to go.
Some spectators are interested enough to go.
I happen to love minor league events, especially baseball, where the players are still far better than I ever was,and better than 99.9% of the rest  and are usually interesting to watch.
Nobody's making you play, attend, or watch-so why the beef?

The course looks better than most on the PGA tour
"Let's slow the damned greens down a bit, not take the character out of them." Tom Doak
"Take their focus off the grass and put it squarely on interesting golf." Don Mahaffey

Jon Wiggett

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Russian Open in Moscow
« Reply #17 on: July 26, 2014, 11:09:25 AM »
It's a challenge tour event in all but name. A chance for the second tier lads to knock it about. Not even the die hards will be watching that dross on telly.

Last year when this would have been planned they would not have seen any of what has happened. It is good that the tour visits new places and especially for GCAs with the new builds it provides.

If these boys a DROSS Brian then what does that make you? Are you in the top 500 in Europe or the US in anything of note??? I agree it may not be the absolute top but.......

Jon

Paul Gray

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Russian Open in Moscow
« Reply #18 on: July 26, 2014, 12:15:03 PM »
I have no issue with the event at all - I just won't be watching it! Nor did I say anything about the standard of play. If you don't think the lowest level possible Euro tour event on a bog standard course isn't dross, that's absolutely fine - you're entitled to your opinion. It's certainly my idea of dross and, for sure, it is not enhancing the "product" that is the European Tour.

Exactly.

I'm not bemoaning where the tour goes but I am pointing out that it's not exactly a move likely to have the likes of Rory et al flocking back over the Atlantic. If, as Brian says, you want to watch it, be my guest. Just don't be surprised when the European Tour in effect, if it hasn't already, replaces the Challenge Tour as the second tier of pro golf.
In the places where golf cuts through pretension and elitism, it thrives and will continue to thrive because the simple virtues of the game and its attendant culture are allowed to be most apparent. - Tim Gavrich

Ivan Lipko

Re: Russian Open in Moscow
« Reply #19 on: July 26, 2014, 12:38:21 PM »
What is the difference between this event and many, many, many other lower prize fund events that European Tour is hosting around the world - South Africa, Hong Kong, Morocco, Sweden, Austria, Italy and what not?

European Tour objectively is already a second tier tour behind the PGA Tour due to a simple reason of lower, way lower purses. The top players only play the top events of Eurotour as well as only the top events of the PGA Tour, thus creating a virtual Globar Tour. Time for a merger, dont' you think?

BTW, what are the expected prize funds for the PGA Tour in the 2015 season? Are they going to grow again? Are they going to get bigger every year?

Jon Wiggett

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Russian Open in Moscow
« Reply #20 on: July 27, 2014, 04:23:16 AM »
I have no issue with the event at all - I just won't be watching it! Nor did I say anything about the standard of play. If you don't think the lowest level possible Euro tour event on a bog standard course isn't dross, that's absolutely fine - you're entitled to your opinion. It's certainly my idea of dross and, for sure, it is not enhancing the "product" that is the European Tour.



Yet if the top 50 in the world were there I bet you would watch it. You statement clearly has to encompass the standard of play as it is the one thing your comment does mention. Nothing about the course or venue just about the second tier lads having a knock about.

It's a challenge tour event in all but name. A chance for the second tier lads to knock it about. Not even the die hards will be watching that dross on telly.

 I too am not interested in watching it but I certainly would not say it was dross.


Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +1/-1
Re: Russian Open in Moscow
« Reply #21 on: July 27, 2014, 03:24:15 PM »
I really don't have any beef with anyone playing in this event.  My comment was restricted to how the venue for the event was chosen -- the same way it's chosen everywhere else.  Money.

However this quote from Michael made me want to bring up something I've read recently:

These guys have to make a living.

This logic has been the downfall of ethical behavior over the past 20-30 years.  Here's the explanation I read for it:

"At no time in the history of mankind has [this] situation been seen in such an acute form. ...  Ask any of his relatives (or friends) why they can tolerate it and don't just ostracize him or harass him to tears, avoid him at the next family funeral.  The answer is likely to be "everyone needs to make a living" -- as they are hedging the possibility of their falling into the same situation some day.

"We need to test the direction of the arrow:

   Ethics (and beliefs)  --->  Profession

    or

   Profession --->  Ethics (and beliefs) "

Tom Bacsanyi

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Russian Open in Moscow
« Reply #22 on: July 27, 2014, 03:30:18 PM »
I really don't have any beef with anyone playing in this event.  My comment was restricted to how the venue for the event was chosen -- the same way it's chosen everywhere else.  Money.

However this quote from Michael made me want to bring up something I've read recently:

These guys have to make a living.

This logic has been the downfall of ethical behavior over the past 20-30 years.  Here's the explanation I read for it:

"At no time in the history of mankind has [this] situation been seen in such an acute form. ...  Ask any of his relatives (or friends) why they can tolerate it and don't just ostracize him or harass him to tears, avoid him at the next family funeral.  The answer is likely to be "everyone needs to make a living" -- as they are hedging the possibility of their falling into the same situation some day.

"We need to test the direction of the arrow:

   Ethics (and beliefs)  --->  Profession

    or

   Profession --->  Ethics (and beliefs) "

Interesting.  What was this quote in regards to or what was it from?
Don't play too much golf. Two rounds a day are plenty.

--Harry Vardon

Carl Rogers

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Russian Open in Moscow
« Reply #23 on: July 28, 2014, 08:21:08 AM »
It is not the equal of the 1936 Berlin Olympics, but in profoundly bad taste to consort with known war criminals (Putin).
I decline to accept the end of man. ... William Faulkner

Jud_T

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Russian Open in Moscow
« Reply #24 on: July 28, 2014, 01:03:39 PM »
Perhaps Laos, Sierra Leone, Myanmar, Zimbabwe, Moritania, Congo, North Korea and Sudan would like to sponsor events...Just thinking outside the box in terms of new marketing opportunities....
Golf is a game. We play it. Somewhere along the way we took the fun out of it and charged a premium to be punished.- - Ron Sirak

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