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David_Tepper

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George Peper's 10 Favorite Links
« on: July 18, 2014, 11:32:59 AM »
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Jason Topp

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Re: George Peper's 10 Favorite Links
« Reply #1 on: July 18, 2014, 11:46:59 AM »
Omissions:

Royal Dornoch
North Berwick
Ballybunion Old
Prestwick
Royal County Down
Royal Porthcawl

That is an impressive list of excluded courses.  I haven't played some of the newer courses included on his list. 
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Mark Bourgeois

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Re: George Peper's 10 Favorite Links
« Reply #2 on: July 18, 2014, 11:50:59 AM »
Completely valid list and not really subject to debate; they're his favorites, not his assessment of some bogus concept like 'greatest' or 'best'.
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Jud_T

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Re: George Peper's 10 Favorite Links
« Reply #3 on: July 18, 2014, 01:01:57 PM »
Is Kingsbarns even a true links?
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Golf is a game. We play it. Somewhere along the way we took the fun out of it and charged a premium to be punished.- - Ron Sirak

Garland Bayley

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Re: George Peper's 10 Favorite Links
« Reply #4 on: July 18, 2014, 01:08:13 PM »
Quote from: Jud_T on July 18, 2014, 01:01:57 PM
Is Kingsbarns even a true links?

According to his book True Links, it is.
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"I enjoy a course where the challenges are contained WITHIN it, and recovery is part of the game  not a course where the challenge is to stay ON it." Jeff Warne

Mac Plumart

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Re: George Peper's 10 Favorite Links
« Reply #5 on: July 18, 2014, 01:35:11 PM »
Quote from: Mark Bourgeois on July 18, 2014, 11:50:59 AM
Completely valid list and not really subject to debate; they're his favorites

Precisely.
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Sportsman/Adventure loving golfer.

Garland Bayley

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Re: George Peper's 10 Favorite Links
« Reply #6 on: July 18, 2014, 01:41:59 PM »
Quote from: Mac Plumart on July 18, 2014, 01:35:11 PM
Quote from: Mark Bourgeois on July 18, 2014, 11:50:59 AM
Completely valid list and not really subject to debate; they're his favorites

Precisely.

He explains leaving out Dornoch in answer to the comments.
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"I enjoy a course where the challenges are contained WITHIN it, and recovery is part of the game  not a course where the challenge is to stay ON it." Jeff Warne

Jay Flemma

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Re: George Peper's 10 Favorite Links
« Reply #7 on: July 18, 2014, 01:58:43 PM »
Gotta put Dye Fore and Teeth of the Dog on that list too! ;D
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Bill_Yates

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Re: George Peper's 10 Favorite Links
« Reply #8 on: July 18, 2014, 02:06:57 PM »
I've had the great good fortune to know George and play with him on The Old Course and Dornoch, I even partnered with him on many occasions and we've talked an awful lot about the game and links courses.

Perhaps if he does not respond directly, you all could help me understand how he can leave Dornoch off the list (even given his response as stated above)  but leave Turnberry on the list.
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Bill Yates
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David_Tepper

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Re: George Peper's 10 Favorite Links
« Reply #9 on: July 18, 2014, 02:21:13 PM »
Bill Y. & others -

Here are George Peper's comments regarding Dornoch, as shown on the LINKS magazine page:

"Sorry guys, but Dornoch just misses my Top 10. I’ve played it a bunch, but I find a couple of the greens (notably #2) a bit wacky, am not crazy about having to climb up to semi-pastureland for a couple of holes, and also don’t like returning uphill to the clubhouse on 16, only to have to go back down and up again on 17/18. Still, in May when the gorse is in full bloom, it’s a special place."

DT
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David Stamm

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Re: George Peper's 10 Favorite Links
« Reply #10 on: July 18, 2014, 04:41:38 PM »
I haven't been to GB&I and I just can't take this list seriously. Yes, it is subjective and they are his favorites, not best. Still, I find the list eyebrow raising. It's like he went out of his way to include modern courses for the sake of "balance".
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"The object of golf architecture is to give an intelligent purpose to the striking of a golf ball."- Max Behr

David_Tepper

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Re: George Peper's 10 Favorite Links
« Reply #11 on: July 18, 2014, 05:09:31 PM »
"I haven't been to GB&I and I just can't take this list seriously."

David Stamm -

Sorry, but you have got to be kidding. 

Among other things, George Peper has lived in St. Andrews for 2 years, has been a member of the R&A for far longer than that, has co-authored True Links and has likely played more links golf and more links golf courses than 98% of the members of this website.

You have never played a round of golf in GB&I, yet you question the validity/sincerity of his opinions. Beautiful! :D

DT
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David Stamm

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Re: George Peper's 10 Favorite Links
« Reply #12 on: July 19, 2014, 12:34:52 AM »
Quote from: David_Tepper on July 18, 2014, 05:09:31 PM
"I haven't been to GB&I and I just can't take this list seriously."

David Stamm -

Sorry, but you have got to be kidding. 

Among other things, George Peper has lived in St. Andrews for 2 years, has been a member of the R&A for far longer than that, has co-authored True Links and has likely played more links golf and more links golf courses than 98% of the members of this website.

You have never played a round of golf in GB&I, yet you question the validity/sincerity of his opinions. Beautiful! :D

DT

David, I do not question his sincerity. As I said, they are his opinions and he's entitled to them. I know all about Mr. Peper's adventures in GB and enjoyed reading about his remodeling of his home on the 18 at TOC and his playing in the old grey toon. Nevertheless, because he's been there and played extensively, that does not guarantee that he "gets it". This forum knows all too well that just because, for example, one has punched out all the top 100 courses on a list does not mean he or she knows what they've seen that distinguishes one from another.

You, of all people, should question the omission of Royal Dornoch and yet put Turnberry and Kingbarns there in it's stead.

That my less than 2 cents. I haven't been there and reserve the right to be flat out wrong on this.
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"The object of golf architecture is to give an intelligent purpose to the striking of a golf ball."- Max Behr

Sean_A

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Re: George Peper's 10 Favorite Links
« Reply #13 on: July 19, 2014, 03:53:29 AM »
Its a list, what the heck.  For me, th surprising aspect isn't the Dornoch axe (wouldn't make my top 10 favourites - not even close), but that he didn't choose any wee links.  He seems to lean more toward meaty links, which is fine. Peper did hit three I would currently include in my top 10 favourites: Pennard, Lahinch & Cruden Bay.

Ciao
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Niall C

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Re: George Peper's 10 Favorite Links
« Reply #14 on: July 19, 2014, 05:26:30 AM »
Favourite is such a subjective thing, so can't really argue (as much as I do enjoy a right good argument). What I'd like to read is more of his comments on why and how he picked these courses. Also he makes an interesting comment on English links which I would have thought might have raised a bit more comment. I'd like to see him expand on those comments but most of all I'd be intrigued to read what links courses he's actually seen/played.

Niall
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Mark Bourgeois

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Re: George Peper's 10 Favorite Links
« Reply #15 on: July 19, 2014, 08:41:33 AM »
His comments regarding English links are hard to sort but here seem his criteria / criticisms:

1) the Rota courses all stink
2) great courses should not have too many blind shots, should not have uneven lies, and should have memorable holes
3) no English links make the juices flow, mainly because the sea rarely comes into view
4) they’re not in Scotland
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Adam Clayman

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Re: George Peper's 10 Favorite Links
« Reply #16 on: July 19, 2014, 09:31:20 AM »
Quote from: Mark Bourgeois on July 19, 2014, 08:41:33 AM

2) great courses should not have too many blind shots, should not have uneven lies, and should have memorable holes



Enough said.

While I disagree with Mr. Peper, his justifications are understandable, albeit pedestrian.
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David_Tepper

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Re: George Peper's 10 Favorite Links
« Reply #17 on: July 19, 2014, 12:40:51 PM »
"Nevertheless, because he's been there and played extensively, that does not guarantee that he "gets it"."

David Stamm -

Do you really think you are in a position to judge whether or not Geroge Peper "gets it?"

Regarding Dornoch, while I may disagree with his conclusion, his observations regarding the course are valid.   

Adam Clayman -

Mark Bourgeois' interpretation of what George Peper has written may or may not be an accurate reflection of what he has said.

DT 
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Mark Bourgeois

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Re: George Peper's 10 Favorite Links
« Reply #18 on: July 19, 2014, 01:21:30 PM »
David,

Fair enough, let me try again using his words: "The links courses of England don’t do much for me..."

1) "...it [Hoylake] lacks memorable holes, and the same must be said for both Royal Birkdale and Royal Lytham. As for the other English venue, Royal St George’s, it has too many blind shots and uneven lies for my taste."

2) "...not one of them [the consensus must-see English links] makes my juices flow. I think one reason for this is that, despite the fact that—like all true links—these English courses are set beside the sea, the fact is, the sea rarely comes into view."

3) "I’ll admit it could have something to do with the fact that they’re [English links he's played] not in Scotland, and that’s where my heart will always be."
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David_Tepper

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Re: George Peper's 10 Favorite Links
« Reply #19 on: July 19, 2014, 01:29:18 PM »
Mark -

I wonder if Mr. Peper has ever played St. Endoc. I would love to hear what he might think of that one.;)

Clearly he is predisposed to favor links golf in Scotland over links golf in England. I suspect it is based as much on sentiment as on the golf courses themselves.

I don't think there is anything wrong with favoring a course with "memorable holes," however one might define them.

DT

P.S. Jack Nicklaus is not a fan of Royal St. Georges either. May he does not "get it" as well. ;)
« Last Edit: July 19, 2014, 01:38:57 PM by David_Tepper »
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Jon Wiggett

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Re: George Peper's 10 Favorite Links
« Reply #20 on: July 19, 2014, 01:56:39 PM »
Birkdale no memorable holes????

1st has to be about the best starting hole on the rota followed by the 2nd being ditto. 12th outstanding par 3 and 17/18 finish is as well known as any bar TOC.

Jon
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David Stamm

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Re: George Peper's 10 Favorite Links
« Reply #21 on: July 19, 2014, 04:28:11 PM »
Quote from: David_Tepper on July 19, 2014, 01:29:18 PM




P.S. Jack Nicklaus is not a fan of Royal St. Georges either. May he does not "get it" as well. ;)


I apparently offended you with my observation. My apologies.
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"The object of golf architecture is to give an intelligent purpose to the striking of a golf ball."- Max Behr

David_Tepper

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Re: George Peper's 10 Favorite Links
« Reply #22 on: July 19, 2014, 06:10:06 PM »
David Stamm -

No need to apologize. You did not offend me.

I realize chatboards such as these encourage a certain amount of speculation and conjecture. Sometimes I feel obliged to note when the envelope gets pushed a little too far.

DT  
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David Stamm

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Re: George Peper's 10 Favorite Links
« Reply #23 on: July 19, 2014, 06:17:24 PM »
Quote from: David_Tepper on July 19, 2014, 06:10:06 PM
David Stamm -

No need to apologize. You did not offend me.

I realize chatboards such as these encourage a certain amount of speculation and conjecture. Sometimes I feel obliged to note when the envelope gets pushed a little too far.

DT  

Fair enough. Hopefully one day I can make it across the sea and see for myself.
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"The object of golf architecture is to give an intelligent purpose to the striking of a golf ball."- Max Behr

Mark Chaplin

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Re: George Peper's 10 Favorite Links
« Reply #24 on: July 20, 2014, 04:53:15 AM »
The pros seem to love Birkdale as the fairways are motorways through the valleys. Sandwich gets little favour as it goes over many of the slopes and pros hate uncertainty.

Jack May not love Sandwich but he certainly gets the course, he won his first event in the UK at RSG.
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Cave Nil Vino
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