[David Davis]

Was playing a course in NL last Friday called Hoge Kleij that has been through a heavy renovation by our own Frank Pont in recent years. I was really impressed with the massive tree removal that he managed to get the club to undertake. I now how tough that must of been. Yet I came up to a hole a short dog leg par 4. Hit my tee shot (one of the few) right up the middle and was very happy with it until I arrived at my ball to find in the middle of the fairway and right in front of the green this enormously huge tree. So I hit rescue club then gap wedge over the tree on the green. However, there was no way around this tree from the fairway. I guess it's a bit of an icon at the club and I'm sure they fought like hell to keep it there. But seriously, I wish I had taken a photo of this. I'm curious what others think. The course was way better than I had thought and the renovation by Frank were done very well, but this hole really made me cringe.

I was thinking today and I imagine this has been discussed before but can anyone think of or name courses that are great, or even good because of their trees?

Or does that even exist? In my opinion it doesn't and I can't outside of say Cypress Point's/Pebble Beaches Cypress Trees or perhaps Chambers Bay's lone tree.

[Adam Lawrence]

that was quick ;-)

[Mac Plumart]

Pine Valley seems to have a lot of trees.

Oak Hill seems proud of their trees.

Harbour Town makes use of their trees.

[Lou_Duran]

It all depends on one's POV and preferences.  Parkland courses would be something completely different if it were not for the trees.  Sahalee CC is defined by its Douglas Firs and cedars.  Ditto for Harbour Town without its pines and some oaks (?), Colonial and its giant pecan and oaks.  Medinah #3?  Southern Hills?  

The occasional specimen tree down the fairway in the line of play is fine with me as is a centerline bunker where I want to hit my ball.  However, I don't like trees immediately off the tee greatly restricting the line of play (e.g. the chute on 18 from the back tees at ANGC).  

[Ally Mcintosh]

There are a few estate courses in Ireland that are improved because of their ancient specimen trees.

What many of the developers (and some architects) failed to realise was that these trees were planted 150-200 years ago as part of a larger landscaping plan… So proceeded to “complement” them with a bunch of non-indigenous tree planting and reduce the overall effect.

[David Davis]

It all depends on one's POV and preferences.  Parkland courses would be something completely different if it were not for the trees.  Sahalee CC is defined by its Douglas Firs and cedars.  Ditto for Harbour Town without its pines and some oaks (?), Colonial and its giant pecan and oaks.  Medinah #3?  Southern Hills?  

The occasional specimen tree down the fairway in the line of play is fine with me as is a centerline bunker where I want to hit my ball.  However, I don't like trees immediately off the tee greatly restricting the line of play (e.g. the chute on 18 from the back tees at ANGC).  

Lou, I've heard many arguments for trees impeding the tee shots as well, though that doesn't mean they are all valid. ie. I think it's great as it forced you to hit a draw/fade/lower shot etc. In terms of having a 50 ft+ very wide tree impeding your approach no matter where you are it seems a bit strange to me. Normally if you see a centerline tree you have to choose which side to play around it or shape the ball accordingly if you can. In my case, you aim right at it and know you will miss by a mile. This tree doesn't leave those options.

I had a lovely 27 holes at Sahalee last year, but yeah, I'm honestly waiting for Texas Chainsaw Massacre part 3 - in Washington to happen there and yes I think the course would be better with some healthy cutting.

[Sean_A]

It is arguable that the corridor book ending #s 4 & 6 at Worlington are a boon for the design.  The trees bring trouble in the middle of the shared fairway into play, but it doesn't feel cramped.  There is also a very good tree down the right of #1.  I can't think of trees that drag the course down - very rare in my experience.  Whether or not these trees make the course great is as much anyone's guess as mine.  

I recall someone posting pix of a cool Danish course which seemed to be ehanced by its trees.  Knole Park too may be better for the trees.

Ciao

[Mac Plumart]

There are trees on Caledonia that are right in front of the tee box that you have to hit under and through ( like a chute) off the tee.

I have a picture at home that I can
Post unless someone else has it.

[John Mayhugh]

The 11th at Hoge Kleij.

The yellow line ends about 230 yards from the tee.  At that spot on the right side of the fairway, it's around 135 to the center of the green.  While it's possible to avoid carrying the tree if you hit it up the right side, you will have to control your distance off the tee pretty well to do so.  


From the center of the fairway


And from the right side near the end of the fairway


I liked the green site.  A run-up approach to avoid the tree has to contend with the large bunker front left, while a carry is made riskier by the drop off if you're a bit long.  


I don't love the hole, but one like it every now and then doesn't bother me.  I cannot think of any courses made great by having trees, though.  Sean makes a good point about the trees at Mildenhall, but that's a minor part of what makes the course so good.

[David Davis]

John,

Thanks, that's the one. I was a little closer. What does every one think of that. The photo you made from the right, well as you said you would have to first know the course pretty well and secondly be left with about 20 yards max in length to judge to be able to utilize that.

[Peter Pallotta]

Ah, the simpler days of a bygone era, before anyone understood the principles of golf course architecture or felt the need to have a design that honoured/reflected the site in its natural state; and when a local yokel like Mr. Crump could just stumble onto a heavily-treed piece of land and start building a golf course right then and there (without even first hiring a professional to raze every tree to the ground). What unbelievable naiviety back then -- a willful ignorance almost. Today, on the other hand, any architect worth his salt would know that the right thing to do with a site like Pine Valley is to bulldoze away every bit of vegetation right from the start, and then create a Scottish-style links course that really looks natural and windswept, and one that is so wide and forgiving that it just oozes strategic choices and options from every single pore. Now that is good thinking -- that is the modern way. Why leave a site looking anything like it originally did and in basically its natural state when you can so easily use modern technology and the genius of modern architects to change it completely and still make it seem natural?  It's like that other course, Olympic-Lake, with all those uphills and downhills and sidehill lies, and with all that lush vegetation/trees (only there, after all, because of the naturally damp and mild climatic conditions of the region) -- oh, what a waste, for which we can only curse Mr. Watson. Can you even imagine what a good modern architect with an unlimited budget might have made of that site? We'd be calling it The Old Course-West or maybe The Sand Hills-North! And it too would have options!!

[Thomas Dai]

The Rolls of Monmouth, especially the front-9, old alboretum style specimins. No tramlines of trees on each side of the fairways here, just occasional big individual trees which play like 'bunkers in the sky'.
atb

[Michael Felton]

What about somewhere like Sunningdale? I haven't played it in a while, but if memory serves, the trees there don't really affect play all that much. Rather they serve to maintain the seclusion of each hole, which I thought was a large part of the charm of the place. You feel like you're on your own golf course, because you pretty well never see other people out there on the course.

I'll probably get vilified for saying it, but I don't mind trees on the golf course. I don't think that they should be actually in the way of the normal playing of a hole, but if there are trees that you need to avoid from the tee, then avoid them. A course like Firestone would be quite devoid of watching interest if there were no trees on it. The playing corridors I'm sure feel quite claustrophobic, but I'm not convinced that's a bad thing necessarily.

[Lou_Duran]

Sahalee without its trees would be a much lesser course.  For the most part, there is sufficient breadth through the corridors.  It is mostly an issue of scale which attacks the senses.  I love the look and feel of the course.  It requires attention to picking a target, and being methodical and resolute with the shot.

Lakewood CC in Dallas used to have a specimen oak on the middle-left side of the DLL, shortish #13 hole, maybe 90-100 yards short of green center.  I played it a number of times with tee shots ranging from a long iron to a driver and always had a comfortable short iron/wedge shot into what was a good birdie opportunity.  One day in a qualifier, I hit a perfect drive down the center and find myself way too close to the tree to go over with a sand wedge, and my punch under the limbs made contact.  DB, my appreciation for the strategic value of the tree was gone with my score.  Mike Beene tells me that the members, though none a prior U.S. president to merit naming the tree, hated it with equal passion.

Fortuitously I guess, in the midst of a renovation a few years back, an "act of God" made its removal "necessary".  I saw the hole a couple weeks back and it looks rather naked.  The course will reopen later this year after another renovation and I look forward to hitting my driver there again.  My second shot will probably be a mid to short iron from well back, but in addition to now being distance challenged, getting much trajectory on the approach shot is a lot of work.  I doubt that I'll miss the tree.

[Frank Pont]

David,

The good news is that no tree has the eternal life, especially now with more and more hefty thunderstorms in NL.

But seriously, I designed the hole to be played with the current oak staying. The key is to open the inside corner route more by cutting another 5-10 meters of trees in the inside corner - something that still remains to be done. That way you have a choice to hit a short tee shot and be left with a longer shot into the green over the left green side bunker, or you hit a long tee shot and have a shorter shot in to the green with no bunker in front.

What you do not want to do is hit a medium length tee shot and be stymied by the huge oak.

[David_Tepper]

"It's like that other course, Olympic-Lake, with all those uphills and downhills and sidehill lies, and with all that lush vegetation/trees (only there, after all, because of the naturally damp and mild climatic conditions of the region) -- oh, what a waste, for which we can only curse Mr. Watson."

PPallotta -

While I am a little unsure of the scope of your sarcasm, it should be noted that the vast majority of the trees on both the Lake and Ocean courses at the Olympic Club were not there in the 1920's when the courses were first built. Based on a number of aerial photos in the clubhouse, the property back then was actually "natural and windswept."

While it might look like the Lake Course was routed thru a forest, that is not the case. The course was there before the trees were planted.

DT

      

[Alex Miller]

Disclaimer- have not been on site.

Obviously ANGC can stand on its own without the trees, but some positives that they provide:

They're big- sense of scale is very good
Some are strategic- Hole 8 dictating a draw for those attempting to reach in 2, 13 dictating a draw off the tee (no offense lefties)
They help create an echo chamber- Supposedly the roars at ANGC are like no other. I'd imagine the trees have something to do with that
Would the winds swirl without them? Would amen corner be just as vexing and would the same challenge be offered without them?

For the most part ANGC has plenty of width even with the pines lining most corridors, and the "second shot golf course" moniker would also imply that trees do not encroach unfairly. But I think the trees help make Augusta great. Also, pine needles! You can't have the pine straw without pine trees!

[Dave McCollum]

We have a somewhat different problem that is relevant to this discussion, if one ignores the great course qualification.  Our course was designed on an old fruit orchard.  The orchard was part of the original settlement in this part of the West (Idaho), an oasis in the middle of a sea of sagebrush.  The pioneer who developed this property was a visionary who also developed the town and put in the irrigation that led to hundreds of square miles of cultivated farms.  To attract settlers and give the monotonous sea of sagebrush a more civilized look, he planted thousands of fast growing Lombardy poplars throughout the area, mostly along roads and as windbreaks for farms.

When our course was designed, the architect used some of these specimen poplars (and some of the fruit trees) as integral features in the design, say as the inside turning point of a dogleg as an example.  Although the course is mostly open and wide, these trees do have a prominent role in the strategy of play.  Now, one hundred and thirty five years after they were planted, the trees are at the end of their useful shelf-life and we lose a few more after every big wind event.  Mother Nature doing tree management.  In certain places losing these trees dramatically alters the strategy of how the hole is played mostly by reducing the difficulty and precision required. 

It has been a very graphic lesson in why not to incorporate trees as such an important feature in the design.  These trees were healthy, mature, towering sentinels when the course was designed and built.  But that was about forty years ago and evolution and change happens to all courses.  Replacing strategic trees isn’t much of an option unless you are Pebble or Augusta because they won’t have the same impact for many years.

[SL_Solow]

Peter,, I suspect that old aerials of Pine Valley will show wider corridors.  Indeed, the old dead guys we talk about were all brought up on links and generally disdained trees.  Even though he did a a lot in both heathland and parkland settings, read what Colt (who had a lot to do with Pine Valley) wrote about trees.

[Joe Sponcia]

I just played with Lawrence Largent at Greenville Country Club.  Our first day on the Riverside course (Silva) was fairly open with trees but NONE came in play, nor were hanging over fairways.  Lots of fun run up shots and really great greens with multiple pinable positions.

The Chanticleer course (Trent Jones) was much more tree lined, but interestingly enough...very few came into play unless you missed the fairway by 15 yards or so.  The course was quite difficult, but the trees complimented the land quite well.  The usual turf conditions were hidden by mulch...but as treed' courses go, this is/was how it should be done in my view, although fewer seem to get the point across.

[Norbert P]

I really like the trees at all the Bandon courses.   Of the shore courses I appreciate the scarcity of them but with great presence when you actually stop to admire the Krumholtzes and the grove aspects. I especially miss the shore pine on 8 of Pacific Dunes that blew over years ago.
That bayonet tree on Old Mac is a stunner.     Trails and Crossings have terrific Madrones and Manzanitas. 

[Peter Pallotta]

David, SL - you're both probably right, in the particulars and in general. I took a broad swipe (apologies) but it is a bit of a pet peeve of mine, i.e. that half our discussions around here are about how past greens committees (short-sighted idiots, apparently, with no love for/understanding of great architecture) altered and ruined classic courses all over the country in one way or another; and the other half of our discussions are about how current greens committees (newly-enlightened beings, apparently, and consumed only with their love for great architecture) are busy restoring and improving and re-visioning dozens of classic courses all over the country, by chopping down trees and changing the shapes of the bunkers.

I just get uncomfortable when I see any consensus opinion/conventional wisdom coming together so quickly, especially in a case like this when I have no a priori reason for assuming that the nature/ethos/practices of "greens committees" have changed all that much in a hundred years. I understand the value of wide corridors (but I note: on treed sites) and I now know that Olympic-Lakes trees were planted post design (but I note: maybe like in those early pictures of Augusta, where you can see all the newly planted little trees just starting to grow and beginning to frame the vistas as, presumably, Mackenzie and Jones intended).

My point is just this: when at least around here the pendulm seems to have swung so quickly towards just ripping trees out by the hundreds in the service of 'great architecture', I feel like advising just a touch more caution and perhaps a slightly more measured approach; not every course is an Oakmont, and I'd bet that neither Colt nor Crump nor Watson etc would've ever questioned so adamently the presence/use of trees on a non-links site.   

[Eric Smith]

Prairie Dunes is one my favorite courses, with one of its more memorable features being the many cottonwood trees dotted throughout. I wouldn't attribute its greatness specifically to the presence of the trees, but they do add a distinct flavor to the course, compared to some of the other great prairie links I've played.

The 12th, for example, employs the trees in the strategy of the hole. See Ran's review ... http://www.golfclubatlas.com/courses-by-country/usa/prairie-dunes/prairie-dunes-pg-iii/

[Frank Pont]

Swinley Forest. Go see it and tell me I'm wrong.

+1

[Jud_T]

I dislike trees on a golf course as much or more than most here, but I find it hard to imagine Belvedere GC having the same sense of place without them.  As for trees in play from a strategic point of view for the average player, I'm yet to be convinced.

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