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archie_struthers

  • Karma: +0/-0
Collection areas , yuck
« on: April 20, 2014, 09:09:29 PM »
 ::)


Can't stand em !   Don't like the looks of them or their use to protect par . Anyone else abhor them ?

Brent Hutto

Re: Collection areas , yuck
« Reply #1 on: April 20, 2014, 09:18:11 PM »
Yes I prefer ankle-deep rough in a uniform carpet over the entire property, starting a few inches off each putting surface and coming right up against the edges of fairways.

archie_struthers

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Collection areas , yuck
« Reply #2 on: April 20, 2014, 09:24:34 PM »
 8) :-X


Nice Brett , best wishes in the U.S. Open.  . Then you can experience both at once !

Actually Mike Davis is on record that the rough won't' be penal at Pinehurst.


 Really ?
« Last Edit: April 20, 2014, 09:46:22 PM by archie_struthers »

Mike Nuzzo

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Collection areas , yuck
« Reply #3 on: April 20, 2014, 09:28:27 PM »
Please give an example or what you saw that made you say yuck
Doesn't The Old Course have collection areas?
Thinking of Bob, Rihc, Bill, George, Neil & Tiger.

archie_struthers

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Collection areas , yuck
« Reply #4 on: April 20, 2014, 09:43:22 PM »
 ??? :)


Mike , I've not had the pleasure of St Andrews  so I can't comment with any degree of  confidence.  However , swales , humps and ridges are awesome fun . The funnel effect into the bunkers there doesn't bother me , I rather like it , if that is what you are talking about .  Don't remember watching balls all end up in the same place at the Old Course , and randomness and quirk I enjoy more and more .  

For me a collection area is a feature that brings all the balls back to the same point , with adverse results to,both play and maintenance. I guess the golf course that visually bothered me the most was Avenel , in MD , where they have played multiple tour events.  Remember Rich Beam's win there?  


« Last Edit: April 20, 2014, 09:46:54 PM by archie_struthers »

Forrest Richardson

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Collection areas , yuck
« Reply #5 on: April 20, 2014, 11:00:28 PM »
I especially detest the Valley of Sin at Home Hole, St, Andrews. Awful, that collection area.   ;)
— Forrest Richardson, Golf Course Architect/ASGCA
    www.golfgroupltd.com
    www.golframes.com

archie_struthers

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Collection areas , yuck
« Reply #6 on: April 21, 2014, 12:20:37 AM »
 ??? :P : >:(

Guess what Forrest , I still don't like collection areas but I like false fronts .  Extensive use of the former turns me off.  Ask a superintendent who deals with divots and drainage issues on them how cool they are ?


Bill_McBride

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Collection areas , yuck
« Reply #7 on: April 21, 2014, 05:34:31 AM »
I know what Archie is talking about and it bugs me too.   A good example is the left side of the third fairway at Bandon Dunes which I first played in 2001.  I hit a good tee shot down that way and the ball wound up in a hollow with a drain at the bottom.  There must have been thirty divots down there.  I guess I wasn't the only one "collected" that day. 

Sean_A

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Collection areas , yuck
« Reply #8 on: April 21, 2014, 05:37:55 AM »
Archie

You have me stumped.  Any time a green is decently raised there will be collection points unless the archie bulldozes it flat 360 around the green.  Surely you must have some specific collection areas you dislike rather than disliking them all  ???

Ciao
New plays planned for 2024: Dunfanaghy, Fraserburgh, Hankley Common, Ashridge, Gog Magog Old & Cruden Bay St Olaf

archie_struthers

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Collection areas , yuck
« Reply #9 on: April 21, 2014, 07:15:25 AM »
 ;D :D

Sean , I'm  a fan of false fronts which make you judge pitch or trajectory . We have a bunch of interesting ones here at my home club Greate Bay. Lots of Willie Park left after 80 years and changes . However , they don't "collect" but rather deflect . If you hit twenty shots to the 17th green of similar shape , the perturbations in the false front will deflect them all a little differently and the ball will end up in random locations . The goal of difficulty and intrigue however remains . If it collected and returned to the same spot I surely would despise it also.


Bill hit it on the head with a specific recollection of Bandon , on what I'm sure is a fine golf course . We have a local course here that I just don't like much to the surprise of many of their members and it's the collection areas that bug me there too.  They look scoped out and unnatural, and the ball always ends up near the drains at the bottom .  Moreover the divots by mid-day , on a well manicured course , are tough to take. In that the water often " collects" there also , the turf tends to be weakest in a high traffic area.

« Last Edit: April 21, 2014, 07:19:01 AM by archie_struthers »

Steve Lang

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Collection areas , yuck
« Reply #10 on: April 21, 2014, 07:22:55 AM »
 8)  I remember a long thread on this topic with Tommy N and Jeff Brauer...  I think its one where you have to agree to disagree, there's appropriate use and then there's obsessive use..  like for real drainage needs

so, do you want chess or bread with the whine?

buy on bread, sell on cheese
Inverness (Toledo, OH) cathedral clock inscription: "God measures men by what they are. Not what they in wealth possess.  That vibrant message chimes afar.
The voice of Inverness"

Charlie Gallagher

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Collection areas , yuck
« Reply #11 on: April 21, 2014, 10:52:55 AM »
It sounds like the main down side is a collection area that acts as a funnel where balls tend to gather in one specific area. Several have talked about that point being near a drain. I can agree that I don't care for that, but in general, I think Robert Hunter said it best when he declared short grass to be the best defense. I certainly have no issue with collection areas around great greens like numbers 6 and 9 at Ballybunion, or around greens 3,4, and 14 at County Louth, just to name two courses.
Regarding drains, I learned about a valuable tool that can be employed to minimize the need for drains in certain soils from Jim Wagner of the Hanse team. He described  what he called a wick. It's a 10 foot long section of culvert pipe that is covered at each end with heavy screen and then filled with gravel. The pipe is then inserted vertically, or near vertically, into a hole at a low point in the fairway or rough. Water collects and then percolates down into the soil, and down into the wick. No need for a drain cover.

archie_struthers

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Collection areas , yuck
« Reply #12 on: April 21, 2014, 11:20:28 AM »
 ;D ;)

Charlie , great idea those wicks , am familiar with them and we put more than a few in at Twisted Dune , even though we don't have collection areas there LOL!  We did have some bad soil in spots and they helped wit the drainage issues. Thanks for the informative thread.

Keith Grande

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Collection areas , yuck
« Reply #13 on: April 21, 2014, 11:23:12 AM »
Pete Dye has built a ton of 'em

archie_struthers

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Collection areas , yuck
« Reply #14 on: April 21, 2014, 11:47:01 AM »
 :P :-X :-*

Pete built them and I love Pete but don't like em .. for reasons stated and reserved for the future! 


Keith Grande

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Collection areas , yuck
« Reply #15 on: April 21, 2014, 11:50:10 AM »
I'm sure if you told Pete about it, he'd tell you, "Then don't hit it there"... ;D

Norbert P

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Collection areas , yuck
« Reply #16 on: April 21, 2014, 12:42:10 PM »
   It's when there is no attempt to avoid creating them that can be annoying.  A few years ago I noticed one adjacent to an elevated green that did not need to be there, that was obviously constructed, and with minimal thought could have been a more interesting feature by opening up the side to allow runoff.  As it was, it created a soft soil approach with the annoying drain. It should not have been a bowl and should have been shaped with an opening. A swale would've worked better.

  A little off topic but, George Waters, in his Pulitzer-bound book, "Sand and Golf" writes eloquently about the "sphere of influence" of bunker design.  (Page 68)  In which he praises the magnificence of collection features.  He makes excellent points. albeit with the caveat of the focus on behefits of sand soils and specifically on bunker surrounds.     

Eddie Hacket made a good point about collection areas referring to Carne in that he, of extremely limited budget, said in essence:  Wherever the ball is highly collected, the golfers will create a bunker.
"Golf is only meant to be a small part of one’s life, centering around health, relaxation and having fun with friends/family." R"C"M

Frank Pont

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Collection areas , yuck
« Reply #17 on: April 21, 2014, 04:23:16 PM »
??? :P : >:(

I don't like collection areas. Ask a superintendent who deals with divots and drainage issues on them how cool they are ?



Only build them on sand, then there should be no drainage issues.

Cut the grass short enough (6-8 mm) so that most people will put and that takes care of your divots.

Jud_T

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Collection areas , yuck
« Reply #18 on: April 21, 2014, 06:18:57 PM »


Only build them on sand, then there should be no drainage issues.


Words to live by!  8)
Golf is a game. We play it. Somewhere along the way we took the fun out of it and charged a premium to be punished.- - Ron Sirak

Bradley Anderson

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Collection areas , yuck
« Reply #19 on: April 21, 2014, 07:18:28 PM »


William_G

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Collection areas , yuck
« Reply #20 on: April 21, 2014, 07:48:53 PM »
::)


Can't stand em !   Don't like the looks of them or their use to protect par . Anyone else abhor them ?

yes when I'm in one, they suck!!!
It's all about the golf!

Joe Sponcia

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Collection areas , yuck
« Reply #21 on: April 21, 2014, 09:59:52 PM »
Archie,

I'll bite.  When they are over-done...like on half the greens, I guess like any feature, they become monotonous to the point of uninteresting.  It goes hand in hand with raised greens.  Bunker or collection area?  Pick your poison. 

The worst I have ever seen or hated, was at Council Fire (Cupp) in Chattanooga, TN.

As others have mentioned, I have seen the thirty divot area frequently as well...not pretty 

Joe

https://pillarsofgolf.wordpress.com

"If the hole is well designed, a fairway can't be too wide". - Mike Nuzzo

Mark Chaplin

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Collection areas , yuck
« Reply #22 on: April 22, 2014, 01:45:58 AM »
Frank - Royal Cinque Ports is built on 100-200ft of sand and we still have winter flooding issues!
Cave Nil Vino

Frank Pont

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Collection areas , yuck
« Reply #23 on: April 22, 2014, 10:32:29 AM »
Frank - Royal Cinque Ports is built on 100-200ft of sand and we still have winter flooding issues!

Mark,

That is a different issue, that is due to high groundwater table, which has been an issue for many coastal/links courses. So the water can drain, but it has nowhere to go. What that means is that some of these hollows will have to be made shallower if our climate stays as wet as it has been for the last few years

J Cabarcos

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Collection areas , yuck
« Reply #24 on: April 22, 2014, 06:41:08 PM »
Archie,

I'll bite.  When they are over-done...like on half the greens, I guess like any feature, they become monotonous to the point of uninteresting.  It goes hand in hand with raised greens.  Bunker or collection area?  Pick your poison. 

The worst I have ever seen or hated, was at Council Fire (Cupp) in Chattanooga, TN.

As others have mentioned, I have seen the thirty divot area frequently as well...not pretty 



The much loved West Links of North Berwick remind me of a particular par three called Eastward Ho which which has a collection area I ascertain to be a third of the green.  Any ball that lands there will inevitably funnel to the adjacent bunker.   

Over-done or challenging?  All in the eye of the beholder.

Link to NB Holes - http://www.northberwickgolfclub.com/c_scorecard.aspx#h10

Hole 10 Eastward Ho - http://www.northberwickgolfclub.com/images/course/holes/nber10.jpg


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