News:

This discussion group is best enjoyed using Google Chrome, Firefox or Safari.


Steven Blake

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Winter's Hand: Lost Greens
« Reply #25 on: April 22, 2014, 11:26:43 AM »
The badly damaged Poa areas run from Chicagoland to lower Michigan over to western PA and southern portions of Ontario. 

Aerators work well but can do some damage if not done properly.  I've come to the conclusion that sometimes doing nothing is better than scraping the green clear of snow and ice.  I've clear greens to have the Poa dead anyway and I've done nothing and had it survive just fine. Its a crap shoot.

I am more in the boat of Joey here by promoting better surface drainage and promoting bentgrass.  I have had less issues since having larger populations of bent. 


Blake

Anthony_Nysse

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Winter's Hand: Lost Greens
« Reply #26 on: April 22, 2014, 11:41:07 AM »
The badly damaged Poa areas run from Chicagoland to lower Michigan over to western PA and southern portions of Ontario. 

Aerators work well but can do some damage if not done properly.  I've come to the conclusion that sometimes doing nothing is better than scraping the green clear of snow and ice.  I've clear greens to have the Poa dead anyway and I've done nothing and had it survive just fine. Its a crap shoot.

I am more in the boat of Joey here by promoting better surface drainage and promoting bentgrass.  I have had less issues since having larger populations of bent. 


Blake

Blake,
  Even with the best surface drainage, which several of the clubs that had turf lost have, they still had issues. These types of weather events happen once in 30 years, similar to Bacteria Wilt. We learn from them, make adjustments and move one. Surface drainage, snow removal wasn't going to stop the impact that the ice had.
Anthony J. Nysse
Director of Golf Courses & Grounds
Apogee Club
Hobe Sound, FL

Jon Wiggett

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Winter's Hand: Lost Greens
« Reply #27 on: April 23, 2014, 12:09:27 AM »
In my experience a problem like this can occur when you get several inches snowfall on unfrozen ground which then partially thaws through the day to create slush and then refreezes to create solid ice often a couple of inches deep over unfrozen ground. The ice prevents air getting through causing moisture in the ground below to stagnate.

Some solutions to this problem are to either break the ice and remove it though this might cause quite a bit of damage

or break the ice each time it forms and leave it which will often call for multiple repeats of the process

or removal of any snowfall on unfrozen ground until the ground freezes solid and leave it there after.

In my experience there is a big difference in the effect on the turf between the ground freezing before snowfall or afterwards.

Jon

GBoring

Re: Winter's Hand: Lost Greens
« Reply #28 on: April 23, 2014, 01:25:51 PM »
Tony,

We top dress very heavy before putting the covers on.  Unfortunately, if you have poor surface drainage your in the hands of the winter weather your are presented with.  And this winter was the worst I've seen in years. 

Anthony_Nysse

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Winter's Hand: Lost Greens
« Reply #29 on: April 23, 2014, 01:28:53 PM »
Tony,

We top dress very heavy before putting the covers on.  Unfortunately, if you have poor surface drainage your in the hands of the winter weather your are presented with.  And this winter was the worst I've seen in years. 

Correct. But I've seen photos of courses that topdress, heavy, clean off snow, cover, have good surface drainage and still got hammered. It not one specific thing, as is usually the case. All or nothing could have been done this winter and it may not have mattered.
Anthony J. Nysse
Director of Golf Courses & Grounds
Apogee Club
Hobe Sound, FL

Ronald Montesano

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Winter's Hand: Lost Greens
« Reply #30 on: April 23, 2014, 01:35:58 PM »
We interrupt this thread to bring you the gratitude of yardbirds who are not superintendents, course builders or architects. This minutiae on what makes or breaks the opening of a course in the spring is beyond invaluable. Gracias.

Carry on...
Coming in August 2023
~Manakiki
~OSU Scarlet
~OSU Grey
~NCR South
~Springfield
~Columbus
~Lake Forest (OH)
~Sleepy Hollow (OH)

BCowan

Re: Winter's Hand: Lost Greens
« Reply #31 on: April 23, 2014, 02:51:35 PM »
Get to get the ice off to get to the surface drainage. Lots and lots of ice damage to the poa in the Midwest, northeast this winter. Ice melts, freezes, poa kicks the bucket. Remove the ice, minimize the chance to water freezing on the poa=Chance of survival. Not just smaller clubs, but high end clubs with all the resources and money got hit. Overall, a bad winter for poa.

  The funny thing I found was the muni's weren't hit.  Leslie Park (Ann Arbor), Hiltop (plymouth), and Rackham (Hunt. Woods) had little to no damage.  Some privates with larger budgets got hit the hardest.  There has got to be a common sense solution similar to shoveling off snow/ice.  Could babying the poa during the summer be something that hurts greens during a bad winter like this past one?

Jon,

   Your post made sense. 

Anthony_Nysse

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Winter's Hand: Lost Greens
« Reply #32 on: April 23, 2014, 03:06:21 PM »
Get to get the ice off to get to the surface drainage. Lots and lots of ice damage to the poa in the Midwest, northeast this winter. Ice melts, freezes, poa kicks the bucket. Remove the ice, minimize the chance to water freezing on the poa=Chance of survival. Not just smaller clubs, but high end clubs with all the resources and money got hit. Overall, a bad winter for poa.

  The funny thing I found was the muni's weren't hit.  Leslie Park (Ann Arbor), Hiltop (plymouth), and Rackham (Hunt. Woods) had little to no damage.  Some privates with larger budgets got hit the hardest.  There has got to be a common sense solution similar to shoveling off snow/ice.  Could babying the poa during the summer be something that hurts greens during a bad winter like this past one?

Jon,

   Your post made sense. 

From what I have gathered from colleagues, MSU and twitter, it's not one thing that was done or wasn't done. The west side of the state is in much better shape, but 2 hours east and 2 hours west have turf loss. Maybe because of lack of resources, the turf at the courses above went into winter with more of cushion- less double cutting, rolling, verticutting, higher height of cut, I don't know. That type of stress can/does cause poa. If those course CANT do those practices as often as they'd like, do they have more bentgrass? I don't know. I know Superintendents who promote bent over poa do not beat on the turf?
  This is me just talking out load, I do not know. There are 50 reasons when they're having the issues they have. After all the speculation., Mother Nature still wins. She's undefeated. When you're growing a living, breathing thing and some things that it needs are not present.....well,....
Anthony J. Nysse
Director of Golf Courses & Grounds
Apogee Club
Hobe Sound, FL

Joey Chase

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Winter's Hand: Lost Greens
« Reply #33 on: April 23, 2014, 04:39:40 PM »
Get to get the ice off to get to the surface drainage. Lots and lots of ice damage to the poa in the Midwest, northeast this winter. Ice melts, freezes, poa kicks the bucket. Remove the ice, minimize the chance to water freezing on the poa=Chance of survival. Not just smaller clubs, but high end clubs with all the resources and money got hit. Overall, a bad winter for poa.

  The funny thing I found was the muni's weren't hit.  Leslie Park (Ann Arbor), Hiltop (plymouth), and Rackham (Hunt. Woods) had little to no damage.  Some privates with larger budgets got hit the hardest.  There has got to be a common sense solution similar to shoveling off snow/ice.  Could babying the poa during the summer be something that hurts greens during a bad winter like this past one?

Jon,

   Your post made sense. 

From what I have gathered from colleagues, MSU and twitter, it's not one thing that was done or wasn't done. The west side of the state is in much better shape, but 2 hours east and 2 hours west have turf loss. Maybe because of lack of resources, the turf at the courses above went into winter with more of cushion- less double cutting, rolling, verticutting, higher height of cut, I don't know. That type of stress can/does cause poa. If those course CANT do those practices as often as they'd like, do they have more bentgrass? I don't know. I know Superintendents who promote bent over poa do not beat on the turf?
  This is me just talking out load, I do not know. There are 50 reasons when they're having the issues they have. After all the speculation., Mother Nature still wins. She's undefeated. When you're growing a living, breathing thing and some things that it needs are not present.....well,....

If, by the west side of the state, you mean lower Michigan, there is a huge difference between the two.  The lake changes everything, and can drop two feet of snow on frozen ground on the western side, but nothing on the eastern side.  Maybe it doesn't mean a thing but maybe it does. 

Also, I agree with BCowan, babying the poa is also a problem.  If you do not encourage the agrostis, you are encouraging poa.  Sure, Pebble Beach can grow 100% poa, but they have ideal conditions as well as an unlimited budget.

On another note, like you said Tony and Steve, it is a crap shoot.  You could do nothing and be successful, or perforate the ice (new to me) and remove it and still loose turf.  knowing your own course and what works in your climate is critical.

 For me, the most important is to properly encourage bentgrass and it's root growth.  A shallow plant like poa isn't going to survive a 30 year climate phenomena.  If it is only occurring every thirty years, that gives me, as a greens keeper no solace.  What does is pushing the turf stand in the right direction to survive said phenomena. 

Anthony_Nysse

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Winter's Hand: Lost Greens
« Reply #34 on: April 23, 2014, 04:55:48 PM »
Get to get the ice off to get to the surface drainage. Lots and lots of ice damage to the poa in the Midwest, northeast this winter. Ice melts, freezes, poa kicks the bucket. Remove the ice, minimize the chance to water freezing on the poa=Chance of survival. Not just smaller clubs, but high end clubs with all the resources and money got hit. Overall, a bad winter for poa.

  The funny thing I found was the muni's weren't hit.  Leslie Park (Ann Arbor), Hiltop (plymouth), and Rackham (Hunt. Woods) had little to no damage.  Some privates with larger budgets got hit the hardest.  There has got to be a common sense solution similar to shoveling off snow/ice.  Could babying the poa during the summer be something that hurts greens during a bad winter like this past one?

Jon,

   Your post made sense.  

From what I have gathered from colleagues, MSU and twitter, it's not one thing that was done or wasn't done. The west side of the state is in much better shape, but 2 hours east and 2 hours west have turf loss. Maybe because of lack of resources, the turf at the courses above went into winter with more of cushion- less double cutting, rolling, verticutting, higher height of cut, I don't know. That type of stress can/does cause poa. If those course CANT do those practices as often as they'd like, do they have more bentgrass? I don't know. I know Superintendents who promote bent over poa do not beat on the turf?
  This is me just talking out load, I do not know. There are 50 reasons when they're having the issues they have. After all the speculation., Mother Nature still wins. She's undefeated. When you're growing a living, breathing thing and some things that it needs are not present.....well,....

If, by the west side of the state, you mean lower Michigan, there is a huge difference between the two.  The lake changes everything, and can drop two feet of snow on frozen ground on the western side, but nothing on the eastern side.  Maybe it doesn't mean a thing but maybe it does.  

Also, I agree with BCowan, babying the poa is also a problem.  If you do not encourage the agrostis, you are encouraging poa.  Sure, Pebble Beach can grow 100% poa, but they have ideal conditions as well as an unlimited budget.

On another note, like you said Tony and Steve, it is a crap shoot.  You could do nothing and be successful, or perforate the ice (new to me) and remove it and still loose turf.  knowing your own course and what works in your climate is critical.

 For me, the most important is to properly encourage bentgrass and it's root growth.  A shallow plant like poa isn't going to survive a 30 year climate phenomena.  If it is only occurring every thirty years, that gives me, as a greens keeper no solace.  What does is pushing the turf stand in the right direction to survive said phenomena.  

Joey,
  Lived on the west side of the state for 20+ years and I many cases, the lake makes a difference. Some of the same guys that cleared this year and had a lot of turf loss, have cleared for years and never had issues. We do what we know, what has been shown to work. Then Mother Nature chances course.
  I know promoting bent is the way to go, but what do you tell the Supts that are on 75+ year old courses that are 90%+ poa? At that point, you're maintaining what you have.
« Last Edit: April 23, 2014, 05:19:47 PM by Anthony_Nysse »
Anthony J. Nysse
Director of Golf Courses & Grounds
Apogee Club
Hobe Sound, FL

Wayne_Kozun

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Winter's Hand: Lost Greens
« Reply #35 on: April 23, 2014, 05:03:03 PM »
I just returned from Hamilton (Ont, CA) and learned of a number of old-line clubs that suffered green damage and loss this winter. I learned of a unique way to handle iced-over greens and I will share it with you if this thread gains traction. Any other, lost-green stories from the northeast/north country? Ways to prevent/minimize damage/loss?

I'll take a guess: Run a greens aerator over the ice to break/perforate it.

Run an aerator on frozen greens in the winter in Canada?  I would love to see that, and then hear from your mechanic afterwards.  
Here is a photo of ice removal from early March at Scarboro:
 
How effective will the aerator be?
« Last Edit: April 23, 2014, 05:33:49 PM by Wayne_Kozun »

Wayne_Kozun

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Winter's Hand: Lost Greens
« Reply #36 on: April 23, 2014, 05:13:05 PM »
By the way my club, Scarboro, tweeted photos of most of the greens - they can be seen here (athough they will start to move down as Twitter.  The club has had fabulous greens in recent years - I believe they are a mixture of poa and bent.

Here are a few of the shots:
5th green

10th green (not so bad)

4th green (horrible)

BCowan

Re: Winter's Hand: Lost Greens
« Reply #37 on: April 23, 2014, 05:20:13 PM »
''I know promoting bent is the way to go, but what do you tell the Supts that are on 75+ year old courses that are 90%+ poa? At that point, you're maintaining what you have.''

   I'm only talking about SE Michigan.  Of all the courses in Ann Arbor, Leslie Park had no damage (greens have good share of poa) and possibly Travis pointe (private).  UM, Radrick, and Barton still closed.  Hiltop in Plymouth, no damage.  played those 2 both.  I haven't played Rackham this year, but whoever answered the phone said no damage (I know taking people for their word is frowned upon on GCA, so I apologize).  Rackham has lots of poa, and very small budget and is maint by city of Detroit, pretty sure.  It just seems very ironic that 3 muni throughout SE Michigan had no damage.  Too many summer apps?  The muni have poa and shade issues.  Too much reliance on turf schools?  How did keepers let that much ice build up?

Anthony_Nysse

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Winter's Hand: Lost Greens
« Reply #38 on: April 23, 2014, 05:22:48 PM »
''I know promoting bent is the way to go, but what do you tell the Supts that are on 75+ year old courses that are 90%+ poa? At that point, you're maintaining what you have.''

   I'm only talking about SE Michigan.  Of all the courses in Ann Arbor, Leslie Park had no damage (greens have good share of poa) and possibly Travis pointe (private).  UM, Radrick, and Barton still closed.  Hiltop in Plymouth, no damage.  played those 2 both.  I haven't played Rackham this year, but whoever answered the phone said no damage (I know taking people for their word is frowned upon on GCA, so I apologize).  Rackham has lots of poa, and very small budget and is maint by city of Detroit, pretty sure.  It just seems very ironic that 3 muni throughout SE Michigan had no damage.  Too many summer apps?  The muni have poa and shade issues.  Too much reliance on turf schools?  How did keepers let that much ice build up?

A lot of courses don't have the staff or resources to remove snow and ice in the winter.  And even the ones that do, had ice. Not sure what you mean regarding reliance on turf schools...
Anthony J. Nysse
Director of Golf Courses & Grounds
Apogee Club
Hobe Sound, FL

BCowan

Re: Winter's Hand: Lost Greens
« Reply #39 on: April 23, 2014, 05:26:14 PM »
''I know promoting bent is the way to go, but what do you tell the Supts that are on 75+ year old courses that are 90%+ poa? At that point, you're maintaining what you have.''

   I'm only talking about SE Michigan.  Of all the courses in Ann Arbor, Leslie Park had no damage (greens have good share of poa) and possibly Travis pointe (private).  UM, Radrick, and Barton still closed.  Hiltop in Plymouth, no damage.  played those 2 both.  I haven't played Rackham this year, but whoever answered the phone said no damage (I know taking people for their word is frowned upon on GCA, so I apologize).  Rackham has lots of poa, and very small budget and is maint by city of Detroit, pretty sure.  It just seems very ironic that 3 muni throughout SE Michigan had no damage.  Too many summer apps?  The muni have poa and shade issues.  Too much reliance on turf schools?  How did keepers let that much ice build up?

A lot of courses don't have the staff or resources to remove snow and ice in the winter.  And even the ones that do, had ice. Not sure what you mean regarding reliance on turf schools...

the muni's have the smallest budgets, no damage to the ones i named.  So are muni keepers more involved in removing ice then big budgeted clubs?

Matt Bosela

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Winter's Hand: Lost Greens
« Reply #40 on: April 23, 2014, 05:28:14 PM »
By the way my club, Scarboro, tweeted photos of most of the greens - they can be seen here (athough they will start to move down as Twitter.  The club has had fabulous greens in recent years - I believe they are a mixture of poa and bent.

Here are a few of the shots:
5th green

10th green (not so bad)

4th green (horrible)


Wayne,

What is the prognosis at Scarboro for the spring?  I know Burlington G&CC got absolutely destroyed and will have to re-sod all 18 greens.  Will your club just go with a heavy overseeding program to get through or will more drastic measures need to be taken?

I love Scarboro - one of my favourite GTA clubs.  

Wayne_Kozun

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Winter's Hand: Lost Greens
« Reply #41 on: April 23, 2014, 05:31:21 PM »
Just heavy overseeding I beliveve.  Apparently the brown areas on almost all greens are showing sings of green at the plant crown.  However the weather and soil temps have not been high enough yet so it is still rather hard to tell.

I have heard the same thing regarding Burlington but we may have heard it from the same place - like from Rob Thompson for example.

Anthony_Nysse

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Winter's Hand: Lost Greens
« Reply #42 on: April 23, 2014, 05:32:32 PM »
''I know promoting bent is the way to go, but what do you tell the Supts that are on 75+ year old courses that are 90%+ poa? At that point, you're maintaining what you have.''

   I'm only talking about SE Michigan.  Of all the courses in Ann Arbor, Leslie Park had no damage (greens have good share of poa) and possibly Travis pointe (private).  UM, Radrick, and Barton still closed.  Hiltop in Plymouth, no damage.  played those 2 both.  I haven't played Rackham this year, but whoever answered the phone said no damage (I know taking people for their word is frowned upon on GCA, so I apologize).  Rackham has lots of poa, and very small budget and is maint by city of Detroit, pretty sure.  It just seems very ironic that 3 muni throughout SE Michigan had no damage.  Too many summer apps?  The muni have poa and shade issues.  Too much reliance on turf schools?  How did keepers let that much ice build up?

A lot of courses don't have the staff or resources to remove snow and ice in the winter.  And even the ones that do, had ice. Not sure what you mean regarding reliance on turf schools...

the muni's have the smallest budgets, no damage to the ones i named.  So are muni keepers more involved in removing ice then big budgeted clubs?

I only know of private clubs doing ice/snow removal. I cannot speak on behalf of a muni course, but I have my guesses.

I follow the guys from Burlington on twitter and they are indeed sodding greens currently.
Anthony J. Nysse
Director of Golf Courses & Grounds
Apogee Club
Hobe Sound, FL

Ronald Montesano

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Winter's Hand: Lost Greens
« Reply #43 on: April 24, 2014, 10:48:19 AM »
Lake Ontario did her damage this year. Ancaster and a number of others have severe damage.
Coming in August 2023
~Manakiki
~OSU Scarlet
~OSU Grey
~NCR South
~Springfield
~Columbus
~Lake Forest (OH)
~Sleepy Hollow (OH)

Tim Johnson

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Winter's Hand: Lost Greens
« Reply #44 on: April 24, 2014, 12:20:36 PM »
Is Hamilton using sod or are they seeding their greens?
I would imagine sod would generate a quicker opening date vs using seed, is that accurate?

Tony Ristola

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Winter's Hand: Lost Greens
« Reply #45 on: April 24, 2014, 02:40:33 PM »
After years of watching supers in Scandinavia grown-in their courses every spring, I have enormous respect for the folks in such climates (actually in every climate). Then there is the challenge of getting the overseeded surfaces to survive. A frost at the wrong time and all the seedlings are toast. Insert quarter, start again.

As Anthony has noted, poa takes the hardest hit. A couple weeks under ice and it's pretty much gone.

I recall reading Milorganite used to have lead in it, and it was taken out during the war years. It seemed to have the effect of supressing poa seed propagation; when the lead was taken out, poa became more prevalent.

As for snow, a buddy was working on a project and they needed to have it seeded and green by a certain date in the spring. He thought the company was going to lose money because they seeded so late, and then it snowed. After the snow melted (can't recall how long the cover lasted), the seed had germinated and started growning; the place had a shimmer of green throughout. The snow acted as insulation, trapping the warmth.


Jon Wiggett

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Winter's Hand: Lost Greens
« Reply #46 on: April 24, 2014, 03:13:52 PM »
Tony much sense in what you wrote,

having spent 6 years in Finland and Norway I know two things. Up to the early 1970's the older courses in the Oslo area rarely had issues in the spring but now as you say they seem to have to regrow each year. Secondly, of the few courses that had good greens in the spring in the early 1990's had green that went into the winter looking brown and dormant but greened up with the first warmth of spring where as most greens went into the winter looking green, came out brown and did not green up to much.

If you get your greens in a dormant state at the start of the winter you have a good chance of getting them out the other side.

The most successful example I have seen was a practice course outside Oslo who had emerald green greens even in October and had them in the same state by mid April. Of course they did use to roll them up and store them in the clubhouse through the winter ;D

Jon

Tony Ristola

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Winter's Hand: Lost Greens
« Reply #47 on: April 24, 2014, 03:39:44 PM »


Tony much sense in what you wrote,

having spent 6 years in Finland and Norway I know two things. Up to the early 1970's the older courses in the Oslo area rarely had issues in the spring but now as you say they seem to have to regrow each year. Secondly, of the few courses that had good greens in the spring in the early 1990's had green that went into the winter looking brown and dormant but greened up with the first warmth of spring where as most greens went into the winter looking green, came out brown and did not green up to much.

If you get your greens in a dormant state at the start of the winter you have a good chance of getting them out the other side.

The most successful example I have seen was a practice course outside Oslo who had emerald green greens even in October and had them in the same state by mid April. Of course they did use to roll them up and store them in the clubhouse through the winter ;D

Jon

I look at the photos above and think a lot of Scandinavian supers would love to have that much grass cover!

This is getting a little off topic, but the courses in Germany are limited in their ability to spray and it seems the courses that have a practice of staying leaner and in the process are doing their best to propagate bent and starve out poa come through the winters with less snow mold.

This winter was a pretty mild one with little snow mold, but last year the courses took a real beating. What's interesting is the former superintendent at Falkenstein Norbert Lischka (now a consultant) had left Falkenstein with all greens (and everything else) in tip-top, awesome shape. Then there was a new practice green which they used washed-sod instead of seeding (I know he was 100% for seeding)... that green got hammered by mold. Whereas all the other greens were lean (low N inputs), no thatch and had healthy soil, washed sod has to be held together in some manner when the soils are washed away, and thatch helps keep the sod whole (I'll stand corrected if someone can explain otherwise) ... which could explain its poor performance.
« Last Edit: April 24, 2014, 03:42:02 PM by Tony Ristola »

John Foley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Winter's Hand: Lost Greens
« Reply #48 on: April 24, 2014, 03:46:27 PM »
I'm hearing a few western NY places are in tough shape - not Oak Hill though.

Our little 9 holer Champion Hills - came through with flying colors thanks to our phenomenal super Erin Lyons.
Integrity in the moment of choice

Tony Ristola

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Winter's Hand: Lost Greens
« Reply #49 on: April 24, 2014, 03:47:56 PM »
Joey,
  Lived on the west side of the state for 20+ years and I many cases, the lake makes a difference. Some of the same guys that cleared this year and had a lot of turf loss, have cleared for years and never had issues. We do what we know, what has been shown to work. Then Mother Nature chances course.
  I know promoting bent is the way to go, but what do you tell the Supts that are on 75+ year old courses that are 90%+ poa? At that point, you're maintaining what you have.
Isn't the answer to try and manage the greens to increase bent? Is the problem partially maintaining for color (water & N)?

Tags:
Tags:

An Error Has Occurred!

Call to undefined function theme_linktree()
Back