[Thomas Dai]

More, some from under the usual radar settings -

2nd par-3 at Golspie
9th par-4 at Ashburnham
15th par-4 at Tain
16th par-4 at Pyle & Kenfig
7th par-4 at Burnham & Berrow
15th par-4 at Enniscrone
4th par-3 at County Sligo

plus one (not played yet) that has been discussed herein -

3rd at Gweedore

So many to consider, but then again, how many poor/awful/lousy greens are there on links courses!?

atb

[Ally Mcintosh]

Ally I thnk it should read like this



1. St.Andrews Eden 1st
2. St.Andrews Old 2nd / 16th
3  Tenby
4. Dornoch
5  Muirfield
6 Ballybunion
7. Renaissance 7th (old 10th)/Pennard/Rye/Western Gailes

7.   
8.
9.   Royal St Georges
10.
11.
12.   Machrihanish
13.  Dooks
14.
15. Burnham & Berrow
16  Deal/ North Berwick
17.
18.


to be cont....

OK Tony, I will take your lead but we need to get down to 18 overall. These can stand as the candidates:

1. St.Andrews Eden 1st
2. St.Andrews Old 2nd / 16th
3. Tenby
4. Dornoch / County Sligo
5. Muirfield / Strandhill
6. Ballybunion / Brora
7. Renaissance 7th (old 10th)/ Pennard / Rye / Western Gailes / RCD
8.
9. Royal St Georges / Lahinch
10.
11.
12. Machrihanish / Rosapenna Old
13. Prestwick / Dooks
14.
15. Burnham & Berrow / Portsalon
16. Deal / North Berwick
17.
18.

Pete, I'm not sure I want to include Old Mac... Probably bias to GB&I true links

Thomas - Are they all in contention for best 18 or are you just listing?... Happy to add but I know none of those ones other than Enniscrone which although massively undulating, I'm not a huge fan of... So I'm taking the liberty of leaving off... I'll give you 4 at Rosses Point though

What really wild, natural greens are we missing?... I know - I've just added 5 at Strandhill and 15 at Portsalon

[Rich Goodale]

To me, there are various levels of interest vis a vis greens (links, or otherwise).

1.  WhereTF is the green!?  I'm pretty sure that more than once I've played my second shot on the 3rd at Prestiwick towards the 4th green, or the 15th........

2.  Once I've found myself in the vicinity of (or even on) the green, WTF???  How in Hell do I best golf my ball from point A (where I lie) to point B (the hole).  Valley of Sin.  Foxy.  The 8th at Kingsbarns.  Etc.

3.  Do I have to seriously consider the option of trying to make the birdie putt or lagging it to avoid a bogey?  Above the hole at 11 TOC.  On the wrong level at 4 Spyglass.  5-6 feet from the hole when it is mid-left on the 4th at Dornoch.

[Mark Pearce]

Since we're lacking a 17th hole, I think that 17 at Seaton Carew is a very, very good green site.

[Thomas Dai]

Ally,

Three particular considerations to me are -

1) how easy/hard is it to find with your approach shot the area of the green where you wish the ball to come to rest
2) if you miss the green, how easy/hard is the up-n-down
3) if you're on the green, how easy/hard is a long lag putt and how easy/hard is it to miss a short one

To me, these three are the sort of points that, when you are driving away from the course in the car or are chatting in the bar after the round, discussion tends to focus on.

The holes I've mentioned above and in my earlier post are, IMO, greens that fit the bill, some perhaps in a more subtle way than others. For a bit of variety my suggestions also vary from raised plateaus through hump-bumpy to bunkerless at fairway level. I've also attempted to pick some holes which are not from the 'usual suspect' courses (coz that can get, well, a bit yawn inspiring).

Nice thread though. I'll be interested to see how it develops.

atb

[Niall C]

4th Silloth – this green with its narrow shape and dip in the middle, flanked by steep drop offs on either side is perhaps the most intimidating green complex I know that doesn’t have any bunkers. Even with a short or mid iron approach it’s a tough task hitting the green.

7th Covesea – short (c.100 yards ?) par 3 played to green sitting on dune ridge like a saddle such that you’re playing to it from the side and at a slight angle, if you follow what I mean. Ridiculously small and with a fall off at the front and back. Great fun.

16th Moray Old – basically a hidden green with a trench running through it diagonally. It’s probably as close to putting on the Himalayas as you will get on a “proper” course.

15th Glasgow Gailes – now that they have blootered all the gorse in front of the green you get great view of a fantastic green with steep fall off on the left hand side and bunkers back right. Front right appears to be the bail out area if there is one however still a tricky up and down.

1st Eden – the internal contours are simply magnificent.

14th Nairn – the course with the best greens on the north of Scotland and this is perhaps the best of the lot but then if you ask me again tomorrow I might have changed my mind, again.

Honourable Mentions;

4th, 12th and 14th Moray Old
12th Nairn
1st Royal Dornoch
5th and 7th Strathlene
11th and 12th Buckpool

Niall

[Ally Mcintosh]

Niall,

Look forward to seeing those Moray Old greens in June...

I think what I was really looking for in this thread was a bunch of weirdly shaped but beautiful, natural, internal, undulations….

[Mark Chaplin]

The problem with greens is you actually need to play a course a fair amount to remember them well. Fortunately I've a weekend playing Deal, Sandwich and Rye so the old memory will get a good jog!

An underrated green at Deal is the first. Its massive which means you find yourself on the green and putting where as you'd be off the green on most courses. Its got masses of movement so your opening putt can be 30+ yards with 3 different breaks. Its very easy to hit in two and walk off with a five which is psychologically miserable at the beginning of a round. 

[Thomas Dai]

The problem with greens is you actually need to play a course a fair amount to remember them well. Fortunately I've a weekend playing Deal, Sandwich and Rye so the old memory will get a good jog!
An underrated green at Deal is the first. Its massive which means you find yourself on the green and putting where as you'd be off the green on most courses. Its got masses of movement so your opening putt can be 30+ yards with 3 different breaks. Its very easy to hit in two and walk off with a five which is psychologically miserable at the beginning of a round.  

Mark, it's a beautiful green  visually also. For me, the big thing about the 1st at Deal is a player is so often faced with about a 30 yard chip over the stream. The rumpled natire of the green makes it far less straightforward than it otherwise might be. It really makes you think carefully about where you should land it, trajectory etc.

Although no chip over a stream is required, I reckon the 7th at Burnham & Berrow is along similar lines. Subtle, yet so easy to make a complete mess of what with the prevailing wind being from behind, that nice left-sided spine all along it's entire length and the way the ground rises up very slightly near the front edge before almost imperceptibly gradually sloping away towards the rear.

Ally,

If you want weirdly shaped but beautiful, natural, internal, undulations then how about the par-3 14th at Nairn? Swoops and dives and rises all over the damn place, 3-4 putt heaven. The 2nd and 6th at Golspie and the 3rd at Cruden Bay, are also a bit like this, although the greens sizes are maybe not that large.

Niall,

Do you happen to have any photos of the 7th hole - or any other holes for that matter - at Covesea that you could post? I'm intreagued by it. From the few photos on their website and from Bingmap the location looks to be an absolute cracker.

atb

[Charlie Gallagher]

Ballybunion 6th
Ballybunion 9th
County Louth 4th
Donegal 5th
Portstewart 6th
Cabot Links 4th

If you like the 6th at the 'Bunion, how can you not think that the 9th isn't at least its equal?    

[Ally Mcintosh]

Ballybunion 6th
Ballybunion 9th
County Louth 4th
Donegal 5th
Portstewart 6th
Cabot Links 4th

If you like the 6th at the 'Bunion, how can you not think that the 9th isn't at least its equal?    

Charlie,

The 9th at Ballybunion is a marvel...

And good shout on the 4th at Baltray too... Although the 14th might win the day.

[Charlie Gallagher]

Ally,
  Damn it, good point about the 14th at Baltray!
 As soon as I read your post I realized I had some how forgotten that one; that entire hole is a complete mind blower. The fun begins on the drive and gets compounded when you miss that green.
   Ally, is it just me, or is that the most underrated links on the planet? It's rated 40th or something like that by Golfweek for GB/Ireland. I played that course two years ago and it blew my mind how good it was. I know it doesn't have the visual vistas that you get at Lahinch, RCD, or Ballybunion, but what Simpson put on the ground there is, to me, about as good as it gets when you measure interest and strategy. In a wind, it's all the course you'd ever want. I had no one behind me the day I played it and the caddie would throw balls down around the greens and have me try different shots. That's how I found out what an incredible green 4 is, and 3, ain't too shabby either; the collection area left, and the undulations that feed the ball left are beyond belief. 
   I always have fun playing links golf, but I don't know if I've ever had more fun on a seaside course than I had discovering County Louth. I've been lucky enough to play 17 links in Ireland and Baltry is easily in my top 4.
  But apparently, that's just me.

[Craig Disher]

17 - The 17th green at Littlestone. The site is extraordinary and the rolled up back and rolled down front make it perhaps the most exciting hole on the course.

[Michael Felton]

The problem with greens is you actually need to play a course a fair amount to remember them well. Fortunately I've a weekend playing Deal, Sandwich and Rye so the old memory will get a good jog!
An underrated green at Deal is the first. Its massive which means you find yourself on the green and putting where as you'd be off the green on most courses. Its got masses of movement so your opening putt can be 30+ yards with 3 different breaks. Its very easy to hit in two and walk off with a five which is psychologically miserable at the beginning of a round. 

Mark, it's a beautiful green  visually also. For me, the big thing about the 1st at Deal is a player is so often faced with about a 30 yard chip over the stream. The rumpled natire of the green makes it far less straightforward than it otherwise might be. It really makes you think carefully about where you should land it, trajectory etc.

Although no chip over a stream is required, I reckon the 7th at Burnham & Berrow is along similar lines. Subtle, yet so easy to make a complete mess of what with the prevailing wind being from behind, that nice left-sided spine all along it's entire length and the way the ground rises up very slightly near the front edge before almost imperceptibly gradually sloping away towards the rear.

I think the big difference there is that if you over or under hit your chip, it's still going to break the same way for the most part. The one at Deal, if you over hit or under hit your chip, you can hit an entirely different slope and it spits it away from the hole, making you look quite foolish.

That said, the 7th at Burnham is an absolute bugger to get close to the hole from short. Really want to get that pin high and on the same side of the ridge as the hole.

Having just played it today and been reminded of it, the 10th hole at Princes (the 1st on the Dunes 9) is a devilish green. Really messes with your head.

[Tom_Doak]

Ally:

If you are keeping it to Great Britain & Ireland, that's fine, but if you are serious about the original title then Barnbougle Dunes has to have one in there.  It is 110% links.

The 13th is one of a kind, and would give Sea Headrig a run for its money, but if that number is off the table then any of the 10th, 11th or 17th would be a good fit.

[Mike Hendren]

I recall being fond of the second at Carnoustie and the way it gradually climbed the foot of the dune.   The hole is underrated and rarely mentioned.

Bogey

[Ally Mcintosh]

Ally:

If you are keeping it to Great Britain & Ireland, that's fine, but if you are serious about the original title then Barnbougle Dunes has to have one in there.  It is 110% links.

The 13th is one of a kind, and would give Sea Headrig a run for its money, but if that number is off the table then any of the 10th, 11th or 17th would be a good fit.

Not really that hung up on keeping it to GB&I Tom.... But the idea came about from a thread the other day when someone (maybe you?) suggested that there was actually an abundance of links courses without great sets of greens... So I was thinking more GB&I...

And now there's been a bunch of suggestions and I've no way of sifting through which ones are just interesting green complexes because of run-offs or site or strategy... and which ones are natural, undulating wonders worth sitting and staring at for hours because the shapes are so beautiful... The latter category is why I started with Sea Hedrig...

[Wade Schueneman]

#3 at The Machrie has a memorable green.

[Niall C]

Niall,

Look forward to seeing those Moray Old greens in June...

I think what I was really looking for in this thread was a bunch of weirdly shaped but beautiful, natural, internal, undulations….

Ally

Re Moray - I'm wary of building it up too much particularly after Muldoon and Arble went to Silloth after glowing references from myself and others only to be a bit disappointed. In truth I think Moray Old has some issues however it does have a lot of top notch holes. What makes it special I think is the overal ambience of the place which includes the RAF. Unfortunately for you the Dambusters squadron has temporarily been disbanded so you won't have the please of a Tornado jet flying 50 feet above your head !

Where else are you playing on your trip ?

Niall

[Sean_A]

Niall,

Look forward to seeing those Moray Old greens in June...

I think what I was really looking for in this thread was a bunch of weirdly shaped but beautiful, natural, internal, undulations….

Ally

Re Moray - I'm wary of building it up too much particularly after Muldoon and Arble went to Silloth after glowing references from myself and others only to be a bit disappointed. In truth I think Moray Old has some issues however it does have a lot of top notch holes. What makes it special I think is the overal ambience of the place which includes the RAF. Unfortunately for you the Dambusters squadron has temporarily been disbanded so you won't have the please of a Tornado jet flying 50 feet above your head !

Where else are you playing on your trip ?

Niall

Huh?  I wasn't disappointed with Silloth. I never expected a great course and I don't think I got a great course.  I do however have a lot of time for Silloth and think it plenty good enough for a return visit. 

Ciao

[Thomas Dai]

I recall two particularly memorable greens at Silloth - one was towards the start of the round, narrow and dropping away steeply at both sides, maybe the 4th hole (?) and the other was a long hole with the green on top of a hill that seemed to roll-off in every direction, a damn hard hole, maybe the 13th hole?
atb

[Joey Chase]

If this includes links outside of GB&I, I am surprised no one has added any of the spectacular greens at El Saler.  I love the angle of the tiers on the 8th, almost parallel to the line of play, and love how bold it's elevation change is.  The pin was on the lower level for my last round there and I enjoyed playing with the slope from different spots on and off the green before moving on to the ninth.  There are several spectacular false fronts on the course as well that catch your attention.

[Ian Andrew]

I went out to see some of the greens on the Eden Course yesterday. The 1st, 5th and 8th are spectacular, but so is the 2nd and 7th. It's a remarkable set of greens the more you look at the internal features the more your impressed with the undulations, pockets and use of diagonal internal features.. There are some very impressive contours, some as big as anything I've ever seen, others brilliantly more subtle.

[Ally Mcintosh]

So let's try a latest set:

1. St.Andrews Eden 1st
2. St.Andrews Old 2nd / 16th
3. Tenby / Machrie
4. Dornoch / County Sligo / Silloth
5. Muirfield / Strandhill
6. Brora
7. Renaissance 7th (old 10th)/ Pennard / Rye / Western Gailes / RCD
8.
9. Royal St Georges / Lahinch / Ballybunion
10.
11.
12. Machrihanish / Rosapenna Old
13. Prestwick / Barnbougle Dunes / Dooks
14. County Louth / Nairn
15. Burnham & Berrow / Portsalon
16. Deal / North Berwick / Moray Old
17. Littlestone / Seaton Carew
18.

[Tony_Muldoon]

So let's try a latest set:

1. St.Andrews Eden 1st
2. St.Andrews Old 2nd / 16th
3. Tenby / Machrie
4. Dornoch / County Sligo / Silloth
5. Muirfield / Strandhill
6. Brora
7. Renaissance 7th (old 10th)/ Pennard / Rye / Western Gailes / RCD
8.
9. Royal St Georges / Lahinch / Ballybunion
10.
11.
12. Machrihanish / Rosapenna Old
13. Prestwick / Barnbougle Dunes / Dooks
14. County Louth / Nairn
15. Burnham & Berrow / Portsalon
16. Deal / North Berwick / Moray Old
17. Littlestone / Seaton Carew
18.

I thought someone had singled out (another thread?) the first on the Dunes Nine at Princes which plays as the 10th.

It sits on a spine and needs no bunkers.  In a recent Open qualifier 5 pro's were sent back out together playing sudden death  for the last place.   All 5 failed to hold the green Woosnan chipped in and the others all picked up.

Other fine bunkerless greens at Princes are the 7th Himalayas and 6th Shore.

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