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Tony_Muldoon

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Re: R&A to vote on admitting women as members
« Reply #50 on: September 20, 2014, 03:29:29 AM »
Spangles

Tish tosh.  You are making mountains out of molehills that exist only in theory.  Alas, it matter not.  You will carry with your day with no changes and so will I.

Ciao

I'm pleased your day went unchanged, mine was rather good actually as this news put a smile on my face.  Today I go to a wedding where I will see the kinda folks who meet me every few years and when it gets quiet I'll see them searching their memory banks for what they know about me so they can revive the conversation when a lull occurs.  Their face will betray a process something like "Tony likes...think, think...genocide?   No...no ...Golf, thats it. Tony's a Golfer, let's move on". They are no loss really and it wil take more than Thursday's decision to change thier minds.


But it does mean one less thing for Polilticians to sound off about, something that has been happening increasingly frequently recently.  This year the spending on sport was reviewed and Golf was a big loser despite the last few years having an unprecedented no of British Golfers as No1.   A friend of mine's daughter is an England 'Cadette' and he wil explain to you how the funding for her trianing has been affected. So because of Golf being un PC, somone I know has been directly affected.

Thursdays decision was thankfully by a landslide.  The repercussions wil follow and work through golf and I'm all for them.
 

Carry on with your day, mine's going to be fine thanks.
Let's make GCA grate again!

Ulrich Mayring

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Re: R&A to vote on admitting women as members
« Reply #51 on: September 20, 2014, 06:51:18 AM »
I would even submit that women would clean up the shithouse and get every poorly behaving male either on line or thrown out and do the club a huge service in the process.

That being said, whenever I hear the "fraternity" argument I wonder why it never takes gays into account. Maybe in those circles they assume homosexuality is something "we don't have here".

Ulrich
Golf Course Exposé (300+ courses reviewed), Golf CV (how I keep track of 'em)

Ulrich Mayring

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: R&A to vote on admitting women as members
« Reply #52 on: September 20, 2014, 07:49:19 AM »
Brian,

are you're saying gay guys aren't excluded, because they wouldn't feel comfortable in a "frat setting" anyway, so they wouldn't join? That's a good argument, but the same goes for women. Open up the club for them and if they're not comfortable in a frat setting, they won't join anyway.

So in my mind the "fraternity argument" must consider women as well as gays as well as other people with limited means and from a different background. To single out one group with the argument "they're all too different", while other groups are just as different, but not singled out - well, that is dangerously backwards.

Ulrich
Golf Course Exposé (300+ courses reviewed), Golf CV (how I keep track of 'em)

Sean_A

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Re: R&A to vote on admitting women as members
« Reply #53 on: September 20, 2014, 01:11:02 PM »
Unfortunately Sheehy, that is the crux of the argument.  What?  You want to hang exclusively with males in that building?  You must be a dirt bag who hates women, doesn't want women to succeed and will at every opportunity stamp women down.  Oh yes, and the ole, well its confusing so the club should allow women just so we can be sure about...wait a minute...about what?  The rules of golf?  Its not as if folks are running around making up anti-women rules.  The entire deal is preposterous.  Still, the members did what they want, so that is that.

Spangles - I could care less about public funding for golf.  Please let me keep my tax money so I can spend it as I please rather than the government trying socially engineer yet more tripe.  If your best argument is some girl lost funding to play a game you are not going to garner much sympathy from me.  Let the parents pay if they want little Joey or Jane to grow up to be big and strong.  I am having enough difficulty trying stump up the money to educate my daughter let alone worry about how to fund little Jane's handicap reduction.  Jeepers, liberals do come out with some doozies  :D.

Ciao
« Last Edit: September 20, 2014, 01:21:30 PM by Sean_A »
New plays planned for 2024: Fraserburgh, Hankley Common, Ashridge, Gog Magog Old & Cruden Bay St Olaf

Ulrich Mayring

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: R&A to vote on admitting women as members
« Reply #54 on: September 20, 2014, 02:07:43 PM »
This argument is frequently used by the authorities against building new golf courses in Germany. Land is so scarce that any "exclusionary" use is not going to fly.

Ulrich
Golf Course Exposé (300+ courses reviewed), Golf CV (how I keep track of 'em)

RJ_Daley

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Re: R&A to vote on admitting women as members
« Reply #55 on: September 20, 2014, 02:24:27 PM »
Unfortunately Sheehy, that is the crux of the argument.  What?  You want to hang exclusively with males in that building?  You must be a dirt bag who hates women, doesn't want women to succeed and will at every opportunity stamp women down.  Oh yes, and the ole, well its confusing so the club should allow women just so we can be sure about...wait a minute...about what?  The rules of golf?  Its not as if folks are running around making up anti-women rules.  The entire deal is preposterous.  Still, the members did what they want, so that is that.

Spangles - I could care less about public funding for golf.  Please let me keep my tax money so I can spend it as I please rather than the government trying socially engineer yet more tripe.  If your best argument is some girl lost funding to play a game you are not going to garner much sympathy from me.  Let the parents pay if they want little Joey or Jane to grow up to be big and strong.  I am having enough difficulty trying stump up the money to educate my daughter let alone worry about how to fund little Jane's handicap reduction.  Jeepers, liberals do come out with some doozies  :D.

Ciao

On a level of freedom to associate with whomever you wish, and freedom to form associations and organizations that have a POV and expression of that point of view, including a private place to practice their beliefs and traditions, I can agree with the sentiment of your first paragraph Sean, on that purely ideological level.  But, we aren't really living in that world anymore.  There are too many competing sectors of population desiring their shot at equality of opportunity.  Perhaps the view by those (women) excluded from old bastions of male only clubs and organizations isn't so much that the seek to inject a dose of estrogen and female culture to ruin the old men's day so much as it is viewed as an enclave where too many influential economic and social decisions are taken in isolation by a generally elite class of movers and shakers, excluding their 'opportunity' to be heard and socialized (small 's') from the get-go of a perspective of economic and socio-political formations; not change the rules of golf to some sort of non-existent exclusively singular female perspective.  

Women are the majority of humans on the planet, BTW.  

While I don't see the second paragraph as quite relevant to the issue of ladies in the R&A drawing room, if we are talking about public funding for equal sporting participation opportunity for women or minorities, or the pubic who can't afford participation in general; I am much in favor of reasonable public expenditure to promote healthy sport and recreation, including building of facilities from golf courses to soccer and baseball fields, and funding within the public ability decided by the public via referendum and their elected representatives to craft said balanced spending and taxing policy.  Let the public decide if spending for such has become excessive.  The alternative to public funding on a community or school level to extend recreational and organized sporting participation is a horrifying scenario of idle youth with nothing but trouble to engage.  It is bad enough as it is with the current balance of funding -  and in areas, austerity to cut such public funding for activities and facilities.  Some of your money or assets are always going to be taxed in one manner or other in the world we will occupy for our lifetimes.  That is a reality.  One way or the other, a bigger entity that you will separate you from some of all of your money.  It might be unbalanced and unchecked corporate methods to fix prices,  buy advantageous policy and law, and hoard resources,  or it may be one form of government or ruling class from dictator to royal that will separate you from your money.   I favor supporting public elective policy formation to decide where and to what greater good said confiscated money or assets are doled out, not some conservative notion that is the naive belief that still in our times, we can all just be perturbed that we can't just decide on our own individual selves when, how and if our taxes are spent.  From girls golf, to public recreational facilities including municipal public golf courses balanced with private enterprise initiatives, a modern day reality is one that seeks balance of those interests.    

If the all male exclusive traditions and desires to be left alone among the male bastion would have persisted at R&A, fine - that is their right IMHO.  Just withdraw any and all public supporting services from security to sewer and water and all manner of public resources utilized to prop up their traditions and high profile activities.  
No actual golf rounds were ruined or delayed, nor golf rules broken, in the taking of any photographs that may be displayed by the above forum user.

BCowan

Re: R&A to vote on admitting women as members
« Reply #56 on: September 20, 2014, 03:07:37 PM »
''I could care less about public funding for golf.  Please let me keep my tax money so I can spend it as I please rather than the government trying socially engineer yet more tripe.  If your best argument is some girl lost funding to play a game you are not going to garner much sympathy from me.  Let the parents pay if they want little Joey or Jane to grow up to be big and strong.  I am having enough difficulty trying stump up the money to educate my daughter let alone worry about how to fund little Jane's handicap reduction.  Jeepers, liberals do come out with some doozies  Cheesy.''
+1

http://www.ladiesgolfclub.com/   wow 90 years ago a group of woman started a club, who would of thunk it.  Regressives  ::)

 ''horrifying scenario of idle youth with nothing but trouble to engage.''

Lack of youths working. 

''From girls golf, to public recreational facilities including municipal public golf courses balanced with private enterprise initiatives, a modern day reality is one that seeks balance of those interests.''

Gov't created woman's golf?  My mom's been playing for 55 years and a daughter of a plumber.   Oh yeah, society has really gotten better with those regressive policies.  Privately owned public courses have to now compete with muni's, and many of the privately owned public courses green fees are less than the muni's. 
« Last Edit: September 20, 2014, 03:13:49 PM by BCowan »

Jud_T

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Re: R&A to vote on admitting women as members
« Reply #57 on: September 20, 2014, 03:17:20 PM »
Once again, we are confusing the rights of association of truly private clubs with clubs involved in events of the public at large-i.e. The Open Championship.  If the Honourable golfers at Muirfield choose to forgo being in the rota and all the spoils that are associated with it, they will be free to remain a pure sausage fest.  My money's against them taking this course of action.
« Last Edit: October 24, 2014, 02:44:00 PM by Jud_T »
Golf is a game. We play it. Somewhere along the way we took the fun out of it and charged a premium to be punished.- - Ron Sirak

BCowan

Re: R&A to vote on admitting women as members
« Reply #58 on: September 20, 2014, 03:23:00 PM »
Muirfield is renting their course out for a tournament.  If people boycotted watching Open's at Muirfield on TV and in person then the R&A would most likely not hold them there.  That's how private property and association work in a FREE society.  The gallery/TV viewership is the market.   

Paul Gray

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Re: R&A to vote on admitting women as members
« Reply #59 on: September 21, 2014, 08:17:46 AM »
Gents,

Despite us being polar opposites in many ways, I actually have a lot of time for Gib and his self perpetuating diatribes. Out of deference I didn't include any gauche smiley faces or such like. Perhaps I should have.  ;D  :-*
In the places where golf cuts through pretension and elitism, it thrives and will continue to thrive because the simple virtues of the game and its attendant culture are allowed to be most apparent. - Tim Gavrich

Mark Chaplin

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: R&A to vote on admitting women as members
« Reply #60 on: September 21, 2014, 12:13:53 PM »
Jud a good mate is a Muirfield member, they consider the club a gentleman's club first and golf club second.  It will be a big surprise if they vote to accept lady members.
Cave Nil Vino

Wayne_Kozun

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: R&A to vote on admitting women as members
« Reply #61 on: September 21, 2014, 12:22:45 PM »
Jud a good mate is a Muirfield member, they consider the club a gentleman's club first and golf club second.  It will be a big surprise if they vote to accept lady members.
If that is the case then I am guessing that they have seen their last Open Championship in 2014.  It is going to be increasingly hard for the R&A to continue to hold events at male only golf clubs. The PGA tour and USGA stopped doing so years ago, ANGC has female members so that leaves The Open Championship as the last bastion.

Cliff Hamm

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Re: R&A to vote on admitting women as members
« Reply #62 on: September 21, 2014, 12:33:36 PM »
Jud a good mate is a Muirfield member, they consider the club a gentleman's club first and golf club second.  It will be a big surprise if they vote to accept lady members.

That's great..Keep the clubhouse as the gentleman's club and open the golf course to the public 8)

Wayne_Kozun

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Re: R&A to vote on admitting women as members
« Reply #63 on: September 21, 2014, 12:41:09 PM »
The gallery/TV viewership is the market.   
Sponsors are also the market.  Rumours are that sponsors, like HSBC, were one of the reasons for the R&A to hold this vote in the first place.  If sponsoring the Open Championship negatively impacts the reputation of a company then that economically impacts the value of The Open Championship.

Tony_Muldoon

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Re: R&A to vote on admitting women as members
« Reply #64 on: September 21, 2014, 01:00:12 PM »
Muirfield is renting their course out for a tournament.  If people boycotted watching Open's at Muirfield on TV and in person then the R&A would most likely not hold them there.  That's how private property and association work in a FREE society.  The gallery/TV viewership is the market.   

IN fact it's simpler than that. The major sponsor HSBC has let it be known publicly that this issue is a 'problem' for them. Money talking.
Let's make GCA grate again!

Thomas Dai

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Re: R&A to vote on admitting women as members
« Reply #65 on: September 21, 2014, 02:10:42 PM »
How long, maybe there already, before sponsors/organisers/clubs/TV cotton on the possible benefits or economies of scale in sponsoring back-to-back events at the same venue?

Or how long before events are still of one week/4-day duration but half the field is male and half is female (say playing say 3 ladies tee times, then 3 men's, then 3 ladies etc etc., 50% cut after 2 days).

Lots of possibilities.

atb
« Last Edit: September 21, 2014, 02:22:33 PM by Thomas Dai »

Jud_T

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Re: R&A to vote on admitting women as members
« Reply #66 on: September 21, 2014, 02:12:09 PM »
Mark,

It'll be a bigger surprise if they choose to leave the Open rota, which public pressure will eventually force if they vote to keep the status quo.
« Last Edit: September 22, 2014, 09:15:03 AM by Jud_T »
Golf is a game. We play it. Somewhere along the way we took the fun out of it and charged a premium to be punished.- - Ron Sirak

Mark Chaplin

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Re: R&A to vote on admitting women as members
« Reply #67 on: September 21, 2014, 04:43:03 PM »
If you believe the members there is a degree of arm twisting from St Andrews as the pros love Muirfield but the club doesn't really want the disruption.

Sandwich appear to be going gooey towards the girls as losing the Open to Princes would be difficult to swallow. The lady members within 200 years now looks to be within 200 days!
Cave Nil Vino

DMoriarty

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Re: R&A to vote on admitting women as members
« Reply #68 on: September 21, 2014, 04:43:13 PM »
Isn't the argument supposed to be that these clubs have the right to choose with whom they associate?  Well, the R&A members have apparently chosen to associate with female members.  And it wasn't decided by the liberal media, but by 85% of the voting members.  So why is it that some of you are complaining?  Aren't you the same ones who are always saying that these clubs' policies are no one else's business?

The thread reminds me of the scene from the Little Rascals made (more) famous by REO Speedwagon:
Darla:    "Alfalfa, will you swing me before we have lunch?"
Alfalfa:   "Sure, Darla."
Spanky:  "Say, Romeo. What about your promise to the He-Man-Woman-Haters-Club?"
Alfalfa:   "I'm sorry, Spanky. I've got to live my own life."

The R&A is playing the role of Alfalfa, much to the chagrin of some of the Spankys on this site.
« Last Edit: September 21, 2014, 04:46:21 PM by DMoriarty »
Golf history can be quite interesting if you just let your favorite legends go and allow the truth to take you where it will.
--Tom MacWood (1958-2012)

Dan Herrmann

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Re: R&A to vote on admitting women as members
« Reply #69 on: September 21, 2014, 05:23:10 PM »
David - Touche.  Well said.

Bob_Huntley

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Re: R&A to vote on admitting women as members
« Reply #70 on: September 24, 2014, 01:14:06 PM »

One of my quirks is that I love reading the obituries in the The Telegraph.

Today's issue gives much space to the Duchess of Devonshire.

The penultimate parargraph is as follows; I guess she would have voted NO if a member of the R&A


"Her dislikes included magpies; women who want to join men’s clubs; hotel coat-hangers; and drivers who slow down to go over cattle grids. She regretted the passing of brogues, the custom of mourning, telegrams, the 1662 Prayer Book, pinafores for little boys and Elvis Presley (“the greatest entertainer ever to walk on a stage”)."

Bob


DMoriarty

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: R&A to vote on admitting women as members
« Reply #71 on: September 24, 2014, 01:19:33 PM »
That is fantastic.
Golf history can be quite interesting if you just let your favorite legends go and allow the truth to take you where it will.
--Tom MacWood (1958-2012)

Dan Kelly

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Re: R&A to vote on admitting women as members
« Reply #72 on: September 24, 2014, 01:36:23 PM »
"Her dislikes included magpies; women who want to join men’s clubs...

For just the briefest of moments, I thought:

Isn't that redundant?

But then the 21st Century kicked in, and I was back to disliking many, many things (not including "women who want to join men's clubs," with whose aspirations I sympathize, even as I would defend to the end the men's right to have their own club and the women's right to have their own) ...

I would love to see architects' ideas for a design of a golf course to be played by women only.
"There's no money in doing less." -- Joe Hancock, 11/25/2010
"Rankings are silly and subjective..." -- Tom Doak, 3/12/2016

Dan Kelly

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: R&A to vote on admitting women as members
« Reply #73 on: September 24, 2014, 05:22:20 PM »

One of my quirks is that I love reading the obituries in the The Telegraph.

Today's issue gives much space to the Duchess of Devonshire.

The penultimate parargraph is as follows; I guess she would have voted NO if a member of the R&A


"Her dislikes included magpies; women who want to join men’s clubs; hotel coat-hangers; and drivers who slow down to go over cattle grids. She regretted the passing of brogues, the custom of mourning, telegrams, the 1662 Prayer Book, pinafores for little boys and Elvis Presley (“the greatest entertainer ever to walk on a stage”)."

Bob



Bob --

What a terrific obit (http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/obituaries/11118801/Dowager-Duchess-of-Devonshire-obituary.html). Excerpts from it will appear in my column.

Here's another passage I loved:

Debo took refuge in quaintly odd pursuits. Another sister, Jessica (“Decca”) Mitford, described her spending “silent hours in the chicken house learning to do an exact imitation of the look of pained concentration that comes over a hen’s face when it is laying an egg, and each morning she methodically checked over and listed in a notebook the stillbirths reported in the vital statistics columns of The Times”.
"There's no money in doing less." -- Joe Hancock, 11/25/2010
"Rankings are silly and subjective..." -- Tom Doak, 3/12/2016

Ally Mcintosh

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: R&A to vote on admitting women as members
« Reply #74 on: September 25, 2014, 04:46:40 AM »

One of my quirks is that I love reading the obituries in the The Telegraph.

Today's issue gives much space to the Duchess of Devonshire.

The penultimate parargraph is as follows; I guess she would have voted NO if a member of the R&A


"Her dislikes included magpies; women who want to join men’s clubs; hotel coat-hangers; and drivers who slow down to go over cattle grids. She regretted the passing of brogues, the custom of mourning, telegrams, the 1662 Prayer Book, pinafores for little boys and Elvis Presley (“the greatest entertainer ever to walk on a stage”)."

Bob



Bob --

What a terrific obit (http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/obituaries/11118801/Dowager-Duchess-of-Devonshire-obituary.html). Excerpts from it will appear in my column.

Here's another passage I loved:

Debo took refuge in quaintly odd pursuits. Another sister, Jessica (“Decca”) Mitford, described her spending “silent hours in the chicken house learning to do an exact imitation of the look of pained concentration that comes over a hen’s face when it is laying an egg, and each morning she methodically checked over and listed in a notebook the stillbirths reported in the vital statistics columns of The Times”.

It's the ones who've cracked that the light shines through...

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