[Steve_ Shaffer]

The Union League of Philadelphia www.unionleague.org having lost the bidding war for Woodcrest CC (Flynn) last year has been  seeking a deal with TF:

 http://www.philly.com/philly/blogs/inq-phillydeals/Union-League-seeks-Phila-golf-course-deal.html?c=r

Now, NGF is involved in a survey:

The Union League of Philadelphia is considering purchasing and renovating the Torresdale Frankford Country Club, located in northeast
 Philadelphia.
The League would be making about $8.5 million in improvements to the clubhouse and golf course,which is a
classic Donald Ross design.
 
If the deal comes to fruition, membership in the greatly improved club will be available for about $8,000.
This would be an all-inclusive annual fee that covers dues,bag storage, locker, and food & beverage minimum.
 
In light of this proposed deal, we value your input. We will ask you questions about:

 Your golf experience in general
  Your familiarity with TorresdaleFrankford CC
   Your potential interest in joining the club after it re-opens as a vastly improved facility
Thank you for yourfeedback.

[Alex Cameron]

Torresdale-Frankford is a very fun course, and the locker room might be the best in Philly. But I don't understand the numbers which the Union League is throwing out. Currently (I believe, am not certain) dues are much less than $8k, and still T-F is struggling to find enough members. What is the Union League counting on to keep things in the green? Use of the course by Union League members independent of T-F full members? Will anybody want to join a course which has a couple thousand house members?

[Joe Bausch]

I would like to know how much of that 8.5 mil is for improvements to the golf course.  And of that slice, how much is for tree management.  You could burn a lot of off-road diesel fuel in the stumpers.   

[JESII]

"Will anybody want to join a course which has a couple thousand house members?"


At least one!!!

While TF is pretty close and a pretty cool course, I won't be joining but a large social membership is awesome for club finances.

[Tom_Doak]

I would like to understand how they will make the $8.5 million in improvements pay off by selling memberships for $8,000.

[JESII]

Seriously?

Come on Tom, this is far from a complicated math problem.

My question is, how much of the 8.5 will be spent on the golf course and how much on the clubhouse?

[Tom_Doak]

Seriously?

Come on Tom, this is far from a complicated math problem.

My question is, how much of the 8.5 will be spent on the golf course and how much on the clubhouse?

Seriously, Jim.  Explain it to me.  If it was really that simple everyone would be making it work, and not many are making it work.

At first I thought they'd have to sell more than 1000 memberships to pay off the cost of the renovations.  Then, I saw that they plan not just to SELL memberships for $8k, but to charge $8k per year in dues. 

But how much of that will be above operations, and help pay off the debt and the interest on the debt?  And how many people are they sure want to pay $8,000 per year to be a member?  And if the economy turns down again, and a percentage of members bail, what's their plan?

[Jim Sherma]

I always assumed that the Union League was somewhat above normal financial concerns. I have no personal knowledge but the reputation in the city was that it was old and powerful money. If the reality is close to what I heard growing up and then working in the city I would think the finances being discussed here would be less then onerous to the individual members.

[Ed Brzezowski]

My bet is that the eight mil purchase price will put a very minor dent in their cash flow. I believe their art work on display is worth well over that.

[Mike Sweeney]

Seriously?

Come on Tom, this is far from a complicated math problem.

My question is, how much of the 8.5 will be spent on the golf course and how much on the clubhouse?

Seriously, Jim.  Explain it to me.  If it was really that simple everyone would be making it work, and not many are making it work.

At first I thought they'd have to sell more than 1000 memberships to pay off the cost of the renovations.  Then, I saw that they plan not just to SELL memberships for $8k, but to charge $8k per year in dues. 

But how much of that will be above operations, and help pay off the debt and the interest on the debt?  And how many people are they sure want to pay $8,000 per year to be a member?  And if the economy turns down again, and a percentage of members bail, what's their plan?

Tom,

In my mind, this is what golf needs, some new models and some new thinking. The Union League made over $5.0 in 2012:

http://www.guidestar.org/organizations/23-1171350/union-league-philadelphia.aspx

They boast of being the #1 City Club in the USA, so they seem to know how to run their club:

http://www.unionleague.org/about.php

There are a lot of assumptions being made based on an internet report(s) about the numbers, but what is the downside if they are wrong? It an extremely well connected institution in Philadelphia that owns 150+ acres in the City of Philadelphia between I-95 and US 1 and also close to an airport (Northeast airport is small). If it fails, at $10,000 an acre, I would take a few acres off their hands. See:

http://phillylandworks.wordpress.com/featured-properties-for-sale/page/2/

[JESII]

Tom,

The math problem is easy.

It's the golf problem that's difficult. Of course we don't know how many people will pay that $8,000 but someone willing to go out on a limb to find out is very encouraging.

It's shocking to me that you seem not to have a grasp on club revenue streams. Take Alex Cameron's initial reaction that a couple thousand social members would be a negative. If the Union League membership all embraced TF and joined; even if they add a one quarter price ($2,000) social membership level this would be all the clubs needs to prosper and thrive. When a person pays $2,000 a year just for the opportunity to pay a couple hundred dollars for a meal you can subsidize a lot of other activities.

[Ian Larson]

A significant portion of that number is going towards the golf course renovation.

[Joe Bausch]

A significant portion of that number is going towards the golf course renovation.

Stephen Kay?

[Dan Boerger]

Very interesting.

First off, if you ever get the chance and have not been to the Union League, I highly recommend it. Some building and art collection. And the food is incredibly good.

Agree with Ed here ... they may view things through an entirely different (and perhaps very long term) financial lens.

[Tom ORourke]

The golf course is very good. Playable for all levels in that there is not a lot of water or forced carries. But it can be a very strong and difficult course from the back. Nice mix of long and short holes. Some nasty greens. However, the area around it is not particularly good. I remember a few years ago a member told me they were escorting guests to cars after dinner so they felt safe going into the parking lot after dark. I am not sure if it is an $8K a year course. The options within a 30 minute drive are pretty good, so TF would not be my first choice. And fairly close by is Lu Lu, which has had problems, and Philmont, which I believe is closing one of their 18s to sell. The course is nice, the area iffy at best, and the market still seems to have trouble with the middle range clubs. The high end ones in town, like HV, Aronimink, Philly CC, etc. would seem to be where the affluent golfer would want to go, Union League member or not. There is a lot of competition for that $8k.

[Steve_ Shaffer]

Perhaps the Union League is using the Olympic Club as a financial model for purchasing TF. 

[D_Malley]

I once holed out a wedge for eagle on #1 at TF to win a six man playoff.

and also have been flagged at the bar in the Union League.

do you think i could get one of those $8,000 memberships?

I do think that the golf course is really good and very under rated.

[Joe Bausch]

I hope to get a better photo album of TFCC this season, but this one from a few years ago in the middle of a summer day will have to do:

http://myphillygolf.com/uploads/bausch/TFCC/index.html

[Philip Caccamise]

The golf course is very good. Playable for all levels in that there is not a lot of water or forced carries. But it can be a very strong and difficult course from the back. Nice mix of long and short holes. Some nasty greens. However, the area around it is not particularly good. I remember a few years ago a member told me they were escorting guests to cars after dinner so they felt safe going into the parking lot after dark. I am not sure if it is an $8K a year course. The options within a 30 minute drive are pretty good, so TF would not be my first choice. And fairly close by is Lu Lu, which has had problems, and Philmont, which I believe is closing one of their 18s to sell. The course is nice, the area iffy at best, and the market still seems to have trouble with the middle range clubs. The high end ones in town, like HV, Aronimink, Philly CC, etc. would seem to be where the affluent golfer would want to go, Union League member or not. There is a lot of competition for that $8k.

My thoughts exactly. I really like TF, one of my Philadelphia favorites. But $8K is more than I would want to spend given the competition in the area.

[mike_malone]

I offer my services for free to manage the tree removal. I can easily get that course close to its potential. I saw Kay's plan and I hope he changes it to be a bolder restoration . I think he was intimidated by the old guard there who wanted to preserve the trees.
If they deal with the trees than they can work to keep the "fairway" ( well into the rough) bunkers in place  . The plan I saw moved the bunkers close to the current fairway lines

The Union League certainly has an understanding of classic design so they could do a great job there
Once the course is restored to its original brilliance (yes) it will be a worthy addition to the Union League.
I imagine the members of the League would be only occasional golfers so the course could handle the increased membership

My hope is that they restore #8 and put the green at the bottom of the hill before the creek as designed and built. The new green is commonplace.

As for 17 and 18 the expansion of Grant Ave. messed with that part of the course so I feel free to suggest a new idea . Shorten 17 and create a Ross volcano green then place 18 tee behind it and lengthen the hole and change the angle of the tee shot

[JSlonis]

I got that NGF email survey this week. like the golf course a lot. There's a lot of good holes, but any plan there that doesn't start with massive tree removal is a huge mistake. Hopefully that'll be part of the course master plan.

$8000 is a steep ask.

As to the question of social members, Jim is 100% correct, a large active social member list helps keep costs down and adds to the bottom line. At Tavistock, we have a great social member list, and it's a huge plus for the club.

[Ed Brzezowski]

With all due respect if it's 8k all in, except for food and booze, doesn't that put it in the middle of Philly clubs?

My club is 6k dues and then a slew of add ons that get you to almost 8k. What is the worth of hob knobbing with the rich and famous?

Is 8k really that far out of the market?

[Philip Caccamise]

With all due respect if it's 8k all in, except for food and booze, doesn't that put it in the middle of Philly clubs?

My club is 6k dues and then a slew of add ons that get you to almost 8k. What is the worth of hob knobbing with the rich and famous?

Is 8k really that far out of the market?

Ed, I found this survey by GAP from back in 2010 (so probably a reasonable proxy +-5%.)
http://www.hilgerflick.com/2010%20PVCMA%20GAP%20Survey%20publication.pdf

Single golf membership averaged $5,662 for the clubs surveyed (which appears to be almost all of them... except notably, Pine Valley and a few others.) Incidentally, that is almost exactly what T-F was for a single golfer in 2013 ($5,350 or $500 paid monthly.) So I'd say $8k pushes the higher end of the market.

[Malcolm Mckinnon]

Whoa Fellas!

I have many details of this proposal through a friend who is a member of the Union League in Philly.

They had a third "Town Hall" meeting at he club today to discuss this project. The project includes forming of a LLC to purchase the club, protecting the current 146 bondholder members, major capital improvements to the clubhouse and grounds and recruiting new members both locally and within the membership of the Union League. League members would be limited to six visits per year so as to create an incentive to join outright and pay supplemental dues.

I have details of what current Union League members would pay for dues to join T-F and it is very reasonable. I do not know what dues structure the non-Union League members will be asked to pay but the $8,000 per year dues being bandied about here is pure speculation and as far as I know has yet to be determined.

Malcolm

[Malcolm Mckinnon]

And also for Steve Shaffer...

According to my source there was no "bidding war" for Woodcrest as the numbers the developers were willing to go to made Union League bids to save and operate the club superfluous. They were never going to be a player at those levels.

Malcolm

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