K. Krahenbuhl

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Re: New Golfweek's Best: 2014 Rankings
« Reply #75 on: March 21, 2014, 01:06:51 am »
Just curious, how many GolfWeek panelists have actually played the composite course at TCC Brookline?

I played it in their member/guest.  I know of others who have as well.

Brad Tufts

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Re: New Golfweek's Best: 2014 Rankings
« Reply #76 on: March 21, 2014, 01:43:52 am »
The rating of the composite at TCC does create a few issues, as it is rarely in play like that.  GD rates the Clyde/Squirrel 9s, which to me is more historic...but probably does knock TCC down a notch or two because its not the current championship layout.

As for the Winchester debate, here's how this lifetime Boston-area resident lists 15 top Mass. courses (not including RI):

Essex
Myopia
TCC (composite or C/S)
Old Sandwich
Kittansett
Boston GC
Taconic
Salem
Concord
Charles River
Winchester
Eastward Ho!
Brae Burn
Longmeadow
Oyster Harbors

My next few honorable mentions: Plymouth, Tedesco (homer!), Oak Hill, Vesper (have not seen post reno/resto), Orchards
Top courses I have not seen that could affect the above list:  Worcester, Sankaty, Nantucket, Hyannisport, Blue Hill, Cohasset

I would put Newport in the 4-5-6 range above, and Wannamoisett maybe half a notch lower, 5-6-7.  Both are great but NCC is just more unique as a course and so important to golf as a sport. 

Most puzzling to me GW-wise is the public top 10 in Mass...I've played all of them, and I have Cape Cod National as my #10 public in Mass.  Come to think of it, I wouldn't mind the GW top ten too much if you just moved CCN to #10 and moved all of them up one spot.

I would love to fight with Philly golf guys about Boston's obvious golf course dominance  ;), but I have not played enough of their courses.  I've seen the top several but not many of the #5-#15-ranked in Philly courses.
So I jump ship in Hong Kong....

Howard Riefs

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Re: New Golfweek's Best: 2014 Rankings
« Reply #77 on: March 21, 2014, 02:30:44 am »

My next few honorable mentions: Plymouth, Tedesco (homer!), Oak Hill, Vesper (have not seen post reno/resto), Orchards
Top courses I have not seen that could affect the above list:  Worcester, Sankaty, Nantucket, Hyannisport, Blue Hill, Cohasset

Go run to see Sankaty.  Nice to see it move +10 this year to #85.
"Golf combines two favorite American pastimes: Taking long walks and hitting things with a stick."  ~P.J. O'Rourke

Jud_T

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Re: New Golfweek's Best: 2014 Rankings
« Reply #78 on: March 21, 2014, 02:36:45 am »
Brad,

Not much love for Eastward Ho! or are Winchester and the others simply that good?
Golf is a game. We play it. Somewhere along the way we took the fun out of it and charged a premium to be punished.- - Ron Sirak

Brad Tufts

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Re: New Golfweek's Best: 2014 Rankings
« Reply #79 on: March 21, 2014, 07:03:05 am »
I honestly have love for all of them...they are all very good.

I do like Eastward Ho very much, but it fails just slightly for me in this day and age because it can be overpowered.  Same thing for Brae Burn, which is another cool quirky layout.  For scratch players the above is true, but for an 18 handicapper, they are both great.

Pretty much all courses above EH on my list are as much as the scratch player can handle.  Essex and Myopia are on the shorter side, but both offer such variety and quirk and history that I consider them a cut above.

Winchester did get a bit better with the recent work, especially the amazing 10th green that now has three tiers with 5 or 6 feet of elevation change, and now about 60 yards from front to back!
So I jump ship in Hong Kong....

Jim Nugent

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Re: New Golfweek's Best: 2014 Rankings
« Reply #80 on: March 21, 2014, 04:38:38 pm »
Jim Nugent:

Brad cam correct or confirm my explanation, but I am going to take a stab are responding to your last post regarding the guidelines in the GW rater handbook.

All raters necessarily evaluate courses against some standard. Also, since raters are human, some are naturally inclined to assign liberal ratings while others are more conservative. The guidelines were developed in order to allow raters to have a common standard. All raters are well traveled and have played many of the great courses. A very few have played a high percentage of the great courses. The presumption is that in order to rate a top 100 course, the rater should have played several. Otherwise, a novice might overrate a course simply because it is the best he has ever played.

The guideline is just an aid to help raters have a similar, if not common, standard. A 10 should be assigned to a course only if you think it is deserves to be among the 5 best courses in the category. Naturally, that means that you should not give that rating to more than 5 courses. You are not necessarily comparing it to the other 4 best courses. In fact, it may be the only top 5 course you have ever played. The guidelines are just that, guidelines. They are not hard and fast. It just means that you should be very careful about assigning 8's, 9's, and 10's, because there are not many courses that deserve them. The rater is not being asked to RANK courses.  Personally, I resist the temptation to even try to rank courses. I know that I consider my 9's to be better than my 8's, etc., but that is as far as I go.

Thanks for the response.  It clears up some things for me, while raising a few other questions.  It sounds like you loosely follow the scale in the GW handbook.  If so, while you don't consider yourself a ranker, it seems to me that's what you do, although you rank by groups. 

Can you only assign a whole number as your final vote/score for a course?  i.e. 10, 9, 8 etc.  Or can you assign 9.5, 8.5 and so forth?   

Jim Colton

Re: New Golfweek's Best: 2014 Rankings
« Reply #81 on: March 21, 2014, 05:56:28 pm »
Jim,

Mac and others confirmed that you can submit scores in tenths.

Jim Franklin

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Re: New Golfweek's Best: 2014 Rankings
« Reply #82 on: March 21, 2014, 07:24:21 pm »
Just curious, how many GolfWeek panelists have actually played the composite course at TCC Brookline?

I played it in their member/guest.  I know of others who have as well.

I played it. Oh wait, I am not a Golfweek rater. Nevermind.
Mr Hurricane

Jim Nugent

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Re: New Golfweek's Best: 2014 Rankings
« Reply #83 on: March 21, 2014, 08:59:35 pm »
Jim,

Mac and others confirmed that you can submit scores in tenths.

Do they mean their final scores for the course, or the scores they give in each of the ten categories?  The GW handbook seems to indicate the final scores can come in 0.5 point increments.  I'd like to know what 7.5 means to a rater. 

John Kirk

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Re: New Golfweek's Best: 2014 Rankings
« Reply #84 on: March 21, 2014, 10:34:10 pm »
Although incremental, the move of Friars Head ahead of Whistling Straits into the #3 spot finally confirms the ascension of natural vs. manufactured architecture as well as the possibility that GW raters may even know what they are looking at.  8)

Agreed.  I don't have firsthand knowledge of Whistling Straits, but based on commentary, and what I've seen in pictures, I am surprised that there aren't more of these less manufactured courses ahead of it.

SPellegrino

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Re: New Golfweek's Best: 2014 Rankings
« Reply #85 on: March 22, 2014, 12:23:22 am »
In my opinion as a member of the Boston Contingent, I'd say that the ranking of the MA/RI courses is about right. Maybe Kittansett is a bit better than its spot indicates, maybe Wannamoisett is ranked closer to Salem  - but neither is outrageously out of position.

As for TCC's Champ (composite) Course, it's my perspective that the course is available for play more frequently than most here believe. In season, it's set up for play about two days per month. On top of that, some of our biggest m/g tournaments have one round played on the Champ Course. On top of that, as long as the course is quiet (early mornings in April/May/September/October/November) one can easily just play the Champ Course. I certainly do that a handful of times per season. The course can be played, and is played, relatively frequently - it's just not always available.

-Stephen
« Last Edit: March 22, 2014, 12:40:07 am by SPellegrino »

astavrides

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Re: New Golfweek's Best: 2014 Rankings
« Reply #86 on: March 22, 2014, 12:58:04 am »
Shout out to Champion Lakes for making the PA list. Designed, designed, built and run by former Pirates Dick Groat and the late Jerry Lynch. Inexpensive too.

Mark Chaplin

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Re: New Golfweek's Best: 2014 Rankings
« Reply #87 on: March 22, 2014, 01:08:16 am »
I played the US Open holes of TCC in an after luncheon 16 person 8 ball, does that count?
Cave Nil Vino

John Kirk

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Re: New Golfweek's Best: 2014 Rankings
« Reply #88 on: March 22, 2014, 01:19:56 am »
Shout out to Champion Lakes for making the PA list. Designed, designed, built and run by former Pirates Dick Groat and the late Jerry Lynch. Inexpensive too.

Pretty happy about the Jerry Lynch reference.  For those younger, or not well versed in baseball history, Jerry Lynch is one of the great "pinch-hitters", a substitute hitter.  I looked up some records, and found that Lynch is 10th all-time in career pinch hits, and in 1961, had an amazing 5 home runs and 25 RBIs pinch hitting.  If Lynch had played in recent years, he would have been an American League designated hitter.

Also note that fellow 60s era Pirates Manny Mota and Smoky Burgess are also in the top 10 of all time pinch hits.

OK, one more piece of trivia.  Dick Groat was a 2-time All-American basketball player at Duke University.

Alright, back to golf.   

Bart Bradley

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Re: New Golfweek's Best: 2014 Rankings
« Reply #89 on: March 22, 2014, 02:09:33 am »
Jim,

Mac and others confirmed that you can submit scores in tenths.

Do they mean their final scores for the course, or the scores they give in each of the ten categories?  The GW handbook seems to indicate the final scores can come in 0.5 point increments.  I'd like to know what 7.5 means to a rater. 

Jim

Final score, the only one that counts for the rankings, is given in .1 increments.

Bart

Jim Nugent

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Re: New Golfweek's Best: 2014 Rankings
« Reply #90 on: March 22, 2014, 02:16:01 am »
Bart, if you give a score of 8.1 to a course, what does that mean to you?  According to the GW handbook, a score of 8 goes to a top 50 course.  Do you follow that same guideline? 

Bart Bradley

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Re: New Golfweek's Best: 2014 Rankings
« Reply #91 on: March 22, 2014, 02:49:05 am »
Jim

It means I think it contains slightly more architectural merit than a course I gave an 8.0 and slightly less than a course I scored 8.2

It is really  that simple.

As long as I am internally consistent, have seen and  scored a relatively large number of courses, and there are  a fair number of other opinions to minimize the effect of my one particular score, then that is as good as you can do given any particular group of  raters. (The value or lack thereof of the final score then depends on the "quality" of the raters -- which I suspect simply means that high quality raters agree with your point of view about what makes good architecture ;))

Bart

Mark Steffey

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Re: New Golfweek's Best: 2014 Rankings
« Reply #92 on: March 22, 2014, 03:50:21 am »
was it golf digest last year that had the clyde/squirrel 18 ranked for TCC?  i think i recall they mentioned that they had more votes in for that loop than the composite so ranked that (or am i entirely off base with my memory??).

Kyle Casella

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Re: New Golfweek's Best: 2014 Rankings
« Reply #93 on: March 22, 2014, 04:17:21 am »
was it golf digest last year that had the clyde/squirrel 18 ranked for TCC?  i think i recall they mentioned that they had more votes in for that loop than the composite so ranked that (or am i entirely off base with my memory??).

Correct. "The Country Club's 18 holes that were the scene of the 1963 and 1988 U.S. Opens is not the 18 holes presently ranked by Golf Digest. Those events were played on a composite course, utilizing a few holes from the club's third Primrose nine. For years, the so-called Open Course was available for play one day per week, and enough Golf Digest panelists were able to play the makeshift routing that we were able to rank it. That changed in 1995 and ever since panelists play the Clyde & Squirrel combination, itself good enough to be one of the top courses in the nation. In something of a surprise, architect Rees Jones, whose renovation prior to the '88 Open catapulted his career and triggered an nostalgia craze within the golf design world, was not retained to update the course for the 2013 U.S. Amateur (which will honor Francis Ouimet's famous 1913 upset U.S. Open win over Harry Vardon and Ted Ray). Instead, architect du jour Gil Hanse (of Rio Olympics 2016 fame) was hired to perform some course restoration."

#24 for reference: http://www.golfdigest.com/golf-courses/2013-02/americas-100-greatest-golf-courses-ranking?currentPage=3

Tim Martin

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Re: New Golfweek's Best: 2014 Rankings
« Reply #94 on: March 22, 2014, 05:30:59 am »
The rating of the composite at TCC does create a few issues, as it is rarely in play like that.  GD rates the Clyde/Squirrel 9s, which to me is more historic...but probably does knock TCC down a notch or two because its not the current championship layout.

As for the Winchester debate, here's how this lifetime Boston-area resident lists 15 top Mass. courses (not including RI):

Essex
Myopia
TCC (composite or C/S)
Old Sandwich
Kittansett
Boston GC
Taconic
Salem
Concord
Charles River
Winchester
Eastward Ho!
Brae Burn
Longmeadow
Oyster Harbors

My next few honorable mentions: Plymouth, Tedesco (homer!), Oak Hill, Vesper (have not seen post reno/resto), Orchards
Top courses I have not seen that could affect the above list:  Worcester, Sankaty, Nantucket, Hyannisport, Blue Hill, Cohasset

I would put Newport in the 4-5-6 range above, and Wannamoisett maybe half a notch lower, 5-6-7.  Both are great but NCC is just more unique as a course and so important to golf as a sport.  

Most puzzling to me GW-wise is the public top 10 in Mass...I've played all of them, and I have Cape Cod National as my #10 public in Mass.  Come to think of it, I wouldn't mind the GW top ten too much if you just moved CCN to #10 and moved all of them up one spot.

I would love to fight with Philly golf guys about Boston's obvious golf course dominance  ;), but I have not played enough of their courses.  I've seen the top several but not many of the #5-#15-ranked in Philly courses.

Brad- I think the one that you really want to see is Worcester. They just finished quite a restoration effort last fall including tree clearing and superintendent Jason Harrison has worked very hard to have the course look and play as Ross originally intended. There is a great mix of holes and plenty of elevation change to compliment a very good set of greens. They were interested in having raters out last Fall and it occurs to me that not enough ballots have been cast since the work was completed to improve their standing because I really think it is worthy of Top 100 consideration. Additionally they are very aware of their history as hosts of the inaugural Ryder Cup as well as a Men's and Women's US Open. I would be interested in your opinion after you get a trip around.

astavrides

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Re: New Golfweek's Best: 2014 Rankings
« Reply #95 on: March 22, 2014, 05:43:22 am »
Shout out to Champion Lakes for making the PA list. Designed, designed, built and run by former Pirates Dick Groat and the late Jerry Lynch. Inexpensive too.

Pretty happy about the Jerry Lynch reference.  For those younger, or not well versed in baseball history, Jerry Lynch is one of the great "pinch-hitters", a substitute hitter.  I looked up some records, and found that Lynch is 10th all-time in career pinch hits, and in 1961, had an amazing 5 home runs and 25 RBIs pinch hitting.  If Lynch had played in recent years, he would have been an American League designated hitter.

Also note that fellow 60s era Pirates Manny Mota and Smoky Burgess are also in the top 10 of all time pinch hits.

OK, one more piece of trivia.  Dick Groat was a 2-time All-American basketball player at Duke University.

Alright, back to golf.   

Lynch was a really nice guy too. Groat is too, just a little more intense. He  was drafted #3 overall by the Pistons, but only played a year before going to the military then playing baseball when he returned (NL MVP in 1960). He is 83 now and has been the color commentator for Pitt Panther basketball since 1979.  Ok now back to golf. Champion Lakes opened in 1966.

Mark Steffey

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Re: New Golfweek's Best: 2014 Rankings
« Reply #96 on: March 22, 2014, 06:03:08 am »
...... Additionally they are very aware of their history as hosts of the inaugural Ryder Cup as well as a Men's and Women's US Open. I would be interested in your opinion after you get a trip around.

Worcester is the only club that can lay claim to hosting all three of these events (for now).  WCC is also one of the few remaining bldgs where you can smoke indoors (men's grill) in MA, & when there is a man working you can also have lunch brought down to eat at the locker room bar.  A truly great club.

Jeff Shelman

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Re: New Golfweek's Best: 2014 Rankings
« Reply #97 on: March 22, 2014, 07:34:28 am »
...... Additionally they are very aware of their history as hosts of the inaugural Ryder Cup as well as a Men's and Women's US Open. I would be interested in your opinion after you get a trip around.

Worcester is the only club that can lay claim to hosting all three of these events (for now).  WCC is also one of the few remaining bldgs where you can smoke indoors (men's grill) in MA, & when there is a man working you can also have lunch brought down to eat at the locker room bar.  A truly great club.

That solo distinction will change in two years. When Hazeltine hosts the 2016 Ryder Cup, it will join Worcester as a club that has hosted a US Open, US Women's Open and a Ryder Cup.


Steve Lapper

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Re: New Golfweek's Best: 2014 Rankings
« Reply #98 on: March 22, 2014, 07:41:43 am »
Although incremental, the move of Friars Head ahead of Whistling Straits into the #3 spot finally confirms the ascension of natural vs. manufactured architecture as well as the possibility that GW raters may even know what they are looking at.  8)

Agreed.  I don't have firsthand knowledge of Whistling Straits, but based on commentary, and what I've seen in pictures, I am surprised that there aren't more of these less manufactured courses ahead of it.

The incremental rise of Ballyneal also deserves some mention. It is yet further proof to my hypothesis.

John, you are only missing confusion and excessive and borderline regressive eye candy at Whistling Straits. Blackwolf Run's River Course remains the most worthy 18 at Kohler.
The conventional view serves to protect us from the painful job of thinking."--John Kenneth Galbraith

Mark McKeever

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Re: New Golfweek's Best: 2014 Rankings
« Reply #99 on: March 22, 2014, 08:37:13 am »
The rating of the composite at TCC does create a few issues, as it is rarely in play like that.  GD rates the Clyde/Squirrel 9s, which to me is more historic...but probably does knock TCC down a notch or two because its not the current championship layout.

As for the Winchester debate, here's how this lifetime Boston-area resident lists 15 top Mass. courses (not including RI):

Essex
Myopia
TCC (composite or C/S)
Old Sandwich
Kittansett
Boston GC
Taconic
Salem
Concord
Charles River
Winchester
Eastward Ho!
Brae Burn
Longmeadow
Oyster Harbors

My next few honorable mentions: Plymouth, Tedesco (homer!), Oak Hill, Vesper (have not seen post reno/resto), Orchards
Top courses I have not seen that could affect the above list:  Worcester, Sankaty, Nantucket, Hyannisport, Blue Hill, Cohasset

I would put Newport in the 4-5-6 range above, and Wannamoisett maybe half a notch lower, 5-6-7.  Both are great but NCC is just more unique as a course and so important to golf as a sport. 

Most puzzling to me GW-wise is the public top 10 in Mass...I've played all of them, and I have Cape Cod National as my #10 public in Mass.  Come to think of it, I wouldn't mind the GW top ten too much if you just moved CCN to #10 and moved all of them up one spot.

I would love to fight with Philly golf guys about Boston's obvious golf course dominance  ;), but I have not played enough of their courses.  I've seen the top several but not many of the #5-#15-ranked in Philly courses.

Salem above Eastward Ho??   No way...
Best MGA showers - Bayonne

"Dude, he's a total d***"

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