[Jud_T]

Old Town Club under Coore restoration moved light years ahead, unprecedented for a Classic Course. Lawsonia maintenance decline finally caught up with it. Small changes can have big effects with tight clustering outside of top 25.

Brad,
  
 This is interesting given Lawsonia's scores have been climbing since 2009. I haven't been there in years, but has the conditioning deteriorated significantly in 2013 relative to prior years? Was the roll-off of old scores? How many new votes did you get in 2013 enough to drop it from 7.34 to something below 6.84?

2013 7.34
2012 7.30
2011 7.23
2010 7.19
2009 7.17

Not to mention the recent additional tree removal...  I wonder how much last season's difficult weather for maintenance in some parts of the country affected the relative conditioning scores...

[Matthew Sander]

Lawsonia maintenance decline finally caught up with it. Small changes can have big effects with tight clustering outside of top 25.

Interesting statement. The recent reviews from GCAers would lead you to believe the playing conditions have been steadily improving  

[Peter Pallotta]

I'm gonna start a magazine, just so I can have a rankings issue -- but only one such issue, ever. And I'm going to select raters, but there will only be 4 of them, and never more than that: Brett H, Sean A, Shel and Don M.  They will play 150 classic courses over 3 or 4 years (and while they are doing that I'll just fill the magazine with long-formed and superlative writing, nothing under 10,000 words, by me and my friends). When they're done, I'll have Brett, Sean, Shel and Don rank the best classic courses, and that will be it. It will never have to be done again, since no new courses will ever be added to the 'classic' category and since, well, excuse me, but if a course hasn't proved its worth in 40 or 50 or 60 years, it's not going to do it next week.

Peter

[Carl Nichols]

Big moves in the modern rankings aren't that remarkable, to me at least, when the 36-spot difference between #64 and #100 is only .18 points -- a smaller difference than between #1 and #2, and between #2 and #3, and between #3 and #7.

[Jim Franklin]

Did Golfweek have an outing at Spring Island?

[Jud_T]

Big moves in the modern rankings aren't that remarkable, to me at least, when the 36-spot difference between #64 and #100 is only .18 points -- a smaller difference than between #1 and #2, and between #2 and #3, and between #3 and #7.

Carl,

Good point, but that only serves to highlight the silliness of the entire endeavor in this type of format, unless of course your goal is to sell magazines, advertising or website hits.  A lot of people, stupid as they may be, continue to place a lot more importance on #64 than #101 in terms of time, effort and money than is justified by the methodology or math.

[Carl Nichols]

I think the GA state rankings are taking good form.

Sea Island Retreat course is a new entrant on the Georgia state rankings at #7.  Did it have recent work?

2013 list for reference:
http://golfweek.com/news/2013/mar/07/2013-golfweeks-best-courses-state-state/?RANKINGS-GolfweeksBest

My guess is that they are only now categorizing it as publicly accessible.  I prefer it to the Reynolds Plantation courses. 

[Carl Nichols]

Big moves in the modern rankings aren't that remarkable, to me at least, when the 36-spot difference between #64 and #100 is only .18 points -- a smaller difference than between #1 and #2, and between #2 and #3, and between #3 and #7.

Carl,

Good point, but that only highlights the silliness of the entire endeavor in this type of format, unless of course your goal is to sell magazines, advertising or website hits.  A lot of people, stupid as they may be, place a lot more importance on #64 than #101 in terms of time, effort and money than is justified by the methodology or math.

Jud--
Note that I didn't say anything inconsistent with what you're saying!

[PCCraig]

Ouch Lawsonia. What happened?

Seriously, WTF. That makes no sense to me. I was there in the fall and it was in the best condition I've seen it in and they continue to restore more of its features.

[Dan Moore]

Old Town Club under Coore restoration moved light years ahead, unprecedented for a Classic Course. Lawsonia maintenance decline finally caught up with it. Small changes can have big effects with tight clustering outside of top 25.

Lawsonia struggled in 2012 with the drought conditions but rebounded nicely last year.  I played July 4th weekend and conditions were quite fine.  It will be interesting to see what happens this year with Oliphant taking over all operations at Lawsonia.  They took all the trees out on the hill surrounding the 13th and 14th greens this winter so that will be something to see.  I plan to get some photos once its nice enough to golf up there.  

[PCCraig]

Lawsonia maintenance decline finally caught up with it.

That's interesting, because I thought the course was in incredible condition this past Columbus Day weekend.

[Jim_Coleman]

   Amazing how Winchester has fallen.  It was in some old Golf Digest Top 100 lists; now it's #175 classic.  I don't get it.  And they did a really good restoration with Jim Nagle in the last few years.  Way under-appreciated, I think.

[Mike Hendren]

What about Belvedere?  I am as big a fan as any, but I am struggling to see how the course is 142 in its current state of Belveder Light - unless bunker work etc happened drecently?

Ciao

+1.  Belvedere is a "nice" golf course.  I'm even more puzzled by Mimosa Hills' debut at 179, another "nice" golf course.

WHAT HAPPENED TO LULU?

Surprised by the dramatic drops for Rustic Canyon and Erin Hills.  Alotian at 101 - lights out indeed.

Bogey

[Jud_T]

Bogey,

Erin Hills went UP 18 spots vs. last year.  Not sure there's 141 classic courses I'd rather play than Belvedere...

[Mark Saltzman]

   Amazing how Winchester has fallen.  It was in some old Golf Digest Top 100 lists; now it's #175 classic.  I don't get it.  And they did a really good restoration with Jim Nagle in the last few years.  Way under-appreciated, I think.

Jim, I think any course that makes Golfweek's Top 200 Classic is very good. I'd go out of my way to see any course on it, if at all possible.  But, look at the long list of courses within 90 minutes of Boston that make the list, though, how many of these is Winchester really ahead of?

Myopia
The Country Club
Essex
Worcester
Whittensville
Newport
Wannamaoissett
Salem
Vesper
Charles River
Brae Ben
Kittanssett

[Tom_Doak]

   Amazing how Winchester has fallen.  It was in some old Golf Digest Top 100 lists; now it's #175 classic.  I don't get it.  And they did a really good restoration with Jim Nagle in the last few years.  Way under-appreciated, I think.

Jim, I think any course that makes Golfweek's Top 200 Classic is very good. I'd go out of my way to see any course on it, if at all possible.  But, look at the long list of courses within 90 minutes of Boston that make the list, though, how many of these is Winchester really ahead of?

Myopia
The Country Club
Essex
Worcester
Whittensville
Newport
Wannamaoissett
Salem
Vesper
Charles River
Brae Ben
Kittanssett

Mark:

That's a good list; it's amazing we don't have a Boston contingent on here, shouting down the Philly guys about who has the best metro area.

However, to your question, I'd put Winchester equal to or ahead of Worcester, Newport, Salem and Brae Burn.  Also, I haven't seen Vesper or Charles River, but I would be shocked if I thought either was better than Winchester.

[Mark Saltzman]

   Amazing how Winchester has fallen.  It was in some old Golf Digest Top 100 lists; now it's #175 classic.  I don't get it.  And they did a really good restoration with Jim Nagle in the last few years.  Way under-appreciated, I think.

Jim, I think any course that makes Golfweek's Top 200 Classic is very good. I'd go out of my way to see any course on it, if at all possible.  But, look at the long list of courses within 90 minutes of Boston that make the list, though, how many of these is Winchester really ahead of?

Myopia
The Country Club
Essex
Worcester
Whittensville
Newport
Wannamaoissett
Salem
Vesper
Charles River
Brae Ben
Kittanssett

Mark:

That's a good list; it's amazing we don't have a Boston contingent on here, shouting down the Philly guys about who has the best metro area.

However, to your question, I'd put Winchester equal to or ahead of Worcester, Newport, Salem and Brae Burn.  Also, I haven't seen Vesper or Charles River, but I would be shocked if I thought either was better than Winchester.

Tom, I'll give you Salem and may even concede Worcester (though the restoration is excellent), but I can't see it ahead of Newport. 

I'd also have Winchester ahead of Vesper and Charles River but wouldn't argue it strongly.

[Jim Nugent]

A course ranked 50th in the nation gets 8 points.  A course ranked 51st gets 7 points.  So minuscule changes in ranking can sometimes lead to big moves in the ranking. 

On the other hand, ranking a course 16th gives it the same score as ranking it 50th (8 points).  i.e. GW's system does not lend itself to much precision. 

A few other interesting points:

Pac Dunes average score is under 9.  That means lots of raters don't consider it among the top 15 modern courses.  In fact, its average score puts it (slightly) outside that ranking. 

Much more unanimity about which classic courses are the best.  Only one modern course averages above 9, while 6 classics do.  Also, the averages for PVGC and CPC mean most raters rank both courses in the top 5.   

[Kyle Casella]

   Amazing how Winchester has fallen.  It was in some old Golf Digest Top 100 lists; now it's #175 classic.  I don't get it.  And they did a really good restoration with Jim Nagle in the last few years.  Way under-appreciated, I think.

Jim, I think any course that makes Golfweek's Top 200 Classic is very good. I'd go out of my way to see any course on it, if at all possible.  But, look at the long list of courses within 90 minutes of Boston that make the list, though, how many of these is Winchester really ahead of?

Myopia
The Country Club
Essex
Worcester
Whittensville
Newport
Wannamaoissett
Salem
Vesper
Charles River
Brae Ben
Kittanssett

Mark:

That's a good list; it's amazing we don't have a Boston contingent on here, shouting down the Philly guys about who has the best metro area.

However, to your question, I'd put Winchester equal to or ahead of Worcester, Newport, Salem and Brae Burn.  Also, I haven't seen Vesper or Charles River, but I would be shocked if I thought either was better than Winchester.

I agree with your assessment of Winchester vs. Brae Burn and personally prefer the golf course to Charles River. I think Worcester post-renovation is close to a draw. I have not played Newport, Salem, or Vesper, although most people I know love Salem.

There is a Boston contingent, we are just quiet because we know the strong feelings that most have towards Philly. Throw in two modern top 20's (Boston Golf and Old Sandwich), Eastward Ho! down on the cape, and Sankaty on Nantucket and the list is even more compelling. But I digress...

[Tom_Doak]

Pac Dunes average score is under 9.  That means lots of raters don't consider it among the top 15 modern courses.  In fact, its average score puts it (slightly) outside that ranking. 

Much more unanimity about which classic courses are the best.  Only one modern course averages above 9, while 6 classics do.  Also, the averages for PVGC and CPC mean most raters rank both courses in the top 5.   

I suppose that could be ... but even the rating for Sand Hills is only 9.22, which means less than half the panelists put it in the top 5 modern courses.  That seems unlikely to me.

I suspect that fewer 9's and 10's are awarded to the modern courses, because voters are comparing the numbers to the classics.  They are supposed to be separate polls, but the magazine has produced a bunch of derivative lists which combine the numbers, and the panelists vote on both at the same time, so it wouldn't be surprising if they think of them together.

Of course, there are lots of GOLFWEEK panelists here, so they can certainly correct me if my hunch is wrong.

[Jim Colton]

A course ranked 50th in the nation gets 8 points.  A course ranked 51st gets 7 points.  So minuscule changes in ranking can sometimes lead to big moves in the ranking. 

On the other hand, ranking a course 16th gives it the same score as ranking it 50th (8 points).  i.e. GW's system does not lend itself to much precision. 

A few other interesting points:

Pac Dunes average score is under 9.  That means lots of raters don't consider it among the top 15 modern courses.  In fact, its average score puts it (slightly) outside that ranking. 

Much more unanimity about which classic courses are the best.  Only one modern course averages above 9, while 6 classics do.  Also, the averages for PVGC and CPC mean most raters rank both courses in the top 5.   

Jim, I'm not a GW rater, but I'm fairly certain that they have the ability to enter in gradients and not just whole numbers.

[Mac Plumart]

Jim, that is correct.

[Bart Bradley]

No reason to be coy...


Golfweek raters score the course on a ten point scale using .1 gradients.  So, despite Tom's comment above, the raters might all rank Sand Hills number one modern but the raters are not required to give it a 10.  I, for example, would hesitate to give any course a 10 because that leaves me no room to ever rate a course more highly.

Bart

[Tom_Doak]

No reason to be coy...


Golfweek raters score the course on a ten point scale using .1 gradients.  So, despite Tom's comment above, the raters might all rank Sand Hills number one modern but the raters are not required to give it a 10.  I, for example, would hesitate to give any course a 10 because that leaves me no room to ever rate a course more highly.

Despite my comment?  I think we're agreeing there ... the numbers submitted for the top courses are lower on the modern side, which is why the numbers for Sand Hills and Pacific Dunes are lower than for the top classic courses, rather than it being a matter of "less unanimity" about which are the best modern courses.

[Sean_A]

Bogey,

Erin Hills went UP 18 spots vs. last year.  Not sure there's 141 classic courses I'd rather play than Belvedere...

Well, I know two classic courses in Michigan very well which I think best Belvedere.   

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