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JBovay

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Re: Florida in 1928
« Reply #100 on: March 11, 2014, 08:55:45 PM »
Sven,

Interesting stuff. I played many of these courses as a kid.

I think I found Lakeview in Lake City on an old aerial photo:

http://ufdc.ufl.edu/UF00071737/00005/18x?coord=30.20211367909724,-82.8369140625,30.031055426540206,-82.4853515625&vo=12&vp=3315,2798

It now appears to be pastureland just east of Alligator Lake.

I would not be surprised if Putnam County Golf & Country Club is now known as Palatka Muni, ascribed to Donald Ross (1925). I also think it's possible that in the 1928 list, Ponce de Leon Springs was confused for Ponce de Leon GC (recently NLE), another Ross near St. Augustine. (The latter course was originally known as St Augustine Links North, and the Ross Society lists both it and St Augustine Links South as being constructed in 1916.)

JB

Sven Nilsen

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Re: Florida in 1928
« Reply #101 on: March 12, 2014, 10:36:28 AM »
J-

Nice find on Lakeview.  You can still make out the same borders between the open ground of the course and the wooded areas in the modern day aerial.

I agree with you on Putnam County/Palatka.

For the Ponce de Leon courses, the only thing that gives me pause to think that it was a reference to the course in St. Augustine is that they list DeLeon Springs as the location.  Perhaps it was simply a mistake, but I don't see how they could have not listed St. Augustine if that was the course they were talking about.  I do note that the list only has one course listed for St. Augustine Links, when as you note there were two.

All the best,

Sven
"As much as we have learned about the history of golf architecture in the last ten plus years, I'm convinced we have only scratched the surface."  A GCA Poster

"There's the golf hole; play it any way you please." Donald Ross

Sven Nilsen

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Re: Florida in 1928
« Reply #102 on: April 16, 2014, 01:42:00 PM »
Jim:

I have North Palm Beach/Palm Beach Winter Club as a Raynor/Banks built in 1927/28 as an 18 hole course.  The articles in this thread that mention Kelsey City suggest a date around 1925 and have it as a 9 holer.  They also clearly note Langford as the designer.

Thinking the Kelsey City course may have been south of North Palm Beach in what is now known as Lake Park.

Sven



In connection with the Babson Park thread, Kevin Robinson shared with me the following regarding Kelsey City:

"It’s funny how this stuff evolves…when I worked at Lost Tree in N. Palm Beach back in the late 90’s, I used to hit balls every day/night at a huge facility called Golden Bear Golf Center on Northlake Blvd. It always looked a bit odd to me because the range area (where you hit the balls to) was huge and it looked as if they had gone to great lengths to make it look like a real golf course…I forgot about it for several years until I picked up Wexler’s book and realized that the Golden Bear Golf Center sat on the exact site of the NLE Kelsey City GC designed by William Langford…the remains of 3-4 holes languishing out in the middle of the range. I think one of the greens was even utilized as part of the huge putting course they had at the facility....They are both now plowed over and a Home Depot sits on the site."

Anyone else beside from Kevin ever practice at Golden Bear?

Sven

"As much as we have learned about the history of golf architecture in the last ten plus years, I'm convinced we have only scratched the surface."  A GCA Poster

"There's the golf hole; play it any way you please." Donald Ross

Patrick_Mucci

Re: Florida in 1928
« Reply #103 on: April 16, 2014, 09:53:40 PM »
Sven,

Great stuff.

I was invited to have dinner at the Poinciana Club in Palm Beach years ago.

I know that when the Royal Poinciana Hotel was raised that a commemorative marker was put in place.

Do you know where the golf course was located ?



DMoriarty

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Re: Florida in 1928
« Reply #104 on: April 16, 2014, 10:42:21 PM »
Patrick,  Are you the one of the guys sitting on the porch?
Golf history can be quite interesting if you just let your favorite legends go and allow the truth to take you where it will.
--Tom MacWood (1958-2012)

Sven Nilsen

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Re: Florida in 1928
« Reply #105 on: April 16, 2014, 11:12:43 PM »
Pat:

Was it the same course as the current Breakers Ocean Course, which would have run directly between the two hotels?

Sven
"As much as we have learned about the history of golf architecture in the last ten plus years, I'm convinced we have only scratched the surface."  A GCA Poster

"There's the golf hole; play it any way you please." Donald Ross

Patrick_Mucci

Re: Florida in 1928
« Reply #106 on: April 16, 2014, 11:19:34 PM »

Patrick,  Are you the one of the guys sitting on the porch?

No,

I'm the one watching the woman bending over !



Patrick_Mucci

Re: Florida in 1928
« Reply #107 on: April 16, 2014, 11:21:43 PM »
Pat:

Was it the same course as the current Breakers Ocean Course, which would have run directly between the two hotels?

I'm not sure, but I don't think so.

It would be neat to locate the Marker.

The Poinciana Club I ate at was on the water


Sven

Sven Nilsen

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Re: Florida in 1928
« Reply #108 on: April 16, 2014, 11:39:08 PM »
Pat:

Pretty sure it was.

The marker you referenced is located on Cocoanut Row.

Sven 
"As much as we have learned about the history of golf architecture in the last ten plus years, I'm convinced we have only scratched the surface."  A GCA Poster

"There's the golf hole; play it any way you please." Donald Ross

Patrick_Mucci

Re: Florida in 1928
« Reply #109 on: April 17, 2014, 09:50:15 AM »
Sven ,

It would seem that the clubhouse was close to the a Royal Poinciana Plaza on the bay side.

When I have time this weekend, I'll look up the history of the Breakers and it's golf course, which I've played.
Short and sporty

Sven Nilsen

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Re: Florida in 1928
« Reply #110 on: April 17, 2014, 10:22:13 AM »
Pat:

No need to look it up.  The course dates back to the mid-1890's, and was the first 18 hole golf course in Florida.

It ran from the back steps of The Breakers (on the ocean side) to the gardens of the Royal Poinciana Hotel (on the bay side), thus between the two hotels.

Here's a photo of the course from the early 1940's, after the Poinciana was razed.  You can make out the tree-lined path between the two hotels (splitting the course) that was used to transport guests from bay to beach and back.  On page 14 of a book called Golf in Florida there are two earlier photos of the course and both hotels, which confirm everything I've stated above (viewable here:  http://books.google.com/books?id=r5As5ABg1REC&printsec=frontcover&dq=golf+in+florida&hl=en&sa=X&ei=L-FPU4f1FunWyQGmyoDgDg&ved=0CEQQ6AEwAA#v=onepage&q=palm%20beach&f=false).



"As much as we have learned about the history of golf architecture in the last ten plus years, I'm convinced we have only scratched the surface."  A GCA Poster

"There's the golf hole; play it any way you please." Donald Ross

Sven Nilsen

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Re: Florida in 1928
« Reply #111 on: April 17, 2014, 11:50:54 AM »
Pat:

Quick followup, the course was also worked on by Ross in the late '30's in a fairly significant remodel that extended its length by 400 yards (from the Nov. 20, 1938 The Palm Beach Post).  




Searching the DRS list and Brad's book, I did not find any mention of this work.

Sven

Edit:  There's another mention of Ross redoing the entire course in 1923 (from the Jan. 21, 1923 Palm Beach Daily News).  This is getting interesting.


« Last Edit: April 17, 2014, 11:13:39 PM by Sven Nilsen »
"As much as we have learned about the history of golf architecture in the last ten plus years, I'm convinced we have only scratched the surface."  A GCA Poster

"There's the golf hole; play it any way you please." Donald Ross

Sven Nilsen

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Re: Florida in 1928
« Reply #112 on: April 17, 2014, 10:42:22 PM »
Four photos of Palm Beach GC (aka the Poinciana course and The Breakers Ocean Course):







"As much as we have learned about the history of golf architecture in the last ten plus years, I'm convinced we have only scratched the surface."  A GCA Poster

"There's the golf hole; play it any way you please." Donald Ross

Sven Nilsen

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Florida in 1928
« Reply #113 on: April 17, 2014, 11:08:04 PM »
Here's a Nov. 20, 1938 The Palm Beach Post article discussing Palm Beach GC:



"As much as we have learned about the history of golf architecture in the last ten plus years, I'm convinced we have only scratched the surface."  A GCA Poster

"There's the golf hole; play it any way you please." Donald Ross

Sven Nilsen

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Florida in 1928
« Reply #114 on: April 17, 2014, 11:28:08 PM »
Another article discussing the 1938 changes by Ross (Dec. 20, 1938 Palm Beach Daily News):

"As much as we have learned about the history of golf architecture in the last ten plus years, I'm convinced we have only scratched the surface."  A GCA Poster

"There's the golf hole; play it any way you please." Donald Ross

Sven Nilsen

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Re: Florida in 1928
« Reply #115 on: April 17, 2014, 11:35:48 PM »
I've read accounts that Langford also worked on the course in the early 1930's.  Here's a Dec. 6, 1931 article from The Palm Beach Post discussing a number of changes to the course, but the article does not note any architects being involved.  It is also of interest that the course was converted to grass greens around 1929.


"As much as we have learned about the history of golf architecture in the last ten plus years, I'm convinced we have only scratched the surface."  A GCA Poster

"There's the golf hole; play it any way you please." Donald Ross

Sven Nilsen

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Re: Florida in 1928
« Reply #116 on: April 17, 2014, 11:42:30 PM »
That Nov. 20, 1938 The Palm Beach Post edition also contained images of two other Palm Beach area courses.

The Everglades Club:



West Palm Beach Municipal GC:

"As much as we have learned about the history of golf architecture in the last ten plus years, I'm convinced we have only scratched the surface."  A GCA Poster

"There's the golf hole; play it any way you please." Donald Ross

Patrick_Mucci

Re: Florida in 1928
« Reply #117 on: April 18, 2014, 11:32:35 PM »
Sven,

Your posts on South Florida have been highly informative.

It would appear that there was far more activity going on in South Florida in the early part of the 20th Century than I had ever imagined.

It would appear that the railroad/s was one of the primary reasons for golf's expansion in South Florida.

Sven Nilsen

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Re: Florida in 1928
« Reply #118 on: April 19, 2014, 10:56:06 AM »
Pat:

Glad you are enjoying this.

I highlighted Flagler's influence on the development of golf in Florida in another recent thread, and the railroads and their hand-in-hand relationship with the various resorts where the primary driver for the growth of the game all over the South.  Flagler even had a separate spur line built from the mainland to the Royal Poinciana so that private rail cars could pull right up to the resort.

At some point, the automobile became as big or bigger of a factor, with Carl Fischer being the predominant driving force in constructing the Dixie Highway and building hotels and golf courses at its terminus.  The number of automobile guide books produced after World War I could provide a family with decades of vacation routes, stops and golf courses to play.

The story is not entirely a happy one, as the real estate crash of 1926 and the devastating hurricanes around that time brought new construction to a standstill.  There were still a few courses built in the subsequent years up to World War II, but for the most part Florida's heyday had come and gone (by the time things picked up, the advent of commercial airlines meant many Americans were travelling to increasingly more remote locations for their relaxation). 

It is also an interesting exercise to contrast what is taking place at Streamsong with the development of places like Palm Beach, Miami Beach and St. Augustine.  There are certain similarities now nearly 100 years on, yet the key differences serve to reflect a different set of ideals and sensibilities from that bygone era.

Sven
"As much as we have learned about the history of golf architecture in the last ten plus years, I'm convinced we have only scratched the surface."  A GCA Poster

"There's the golf hole; play it any way you please." Donald Ross

BCrosby

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Re: Florida in 1928
« Reply #119 on: April 19, 2014, 09:21:30 PM »
"It is also an interesting exercise to contrast what is taking place at Streamsong with the development of places like Palm Beach, Miami Beach and St. Augustine.  There are certain similarities now nearly 100 years on, yet the key differences serve to reflect a different set of ideals and sensibilities from that bygone era."

I'd love to hear you elaborate on the above.

Bob 

Bill_McBride

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Re: Florida in 1928
« Reply #120 on: April 21, 2014, 05:38:11 AM »
This thread is a good reminder that it's possible, I think, to edit it and submit to Ran as an "In My Opinion" piece, thereby saving it for future reference. 

Patrick_Mucci

Re: Florida in 1928
« Reply #121 on: April 21, 2014, 09:08:49 AM »
Sven,

Great, great stuff.

So the Breakers and the Royal Poinciana competed with one another for guests ?

The golf courses were adjacent to one another so it would seem that location didn't favor either.
Which golf course was more acclaimed ?

The Breakers was on the ocean, which, with the beach, would seem to be an advantage for the hotel aspect.

I recall as a young kid, staying at the Biltmore, which I believe, like the Royal Poinciana was on the Inland Waterway side
I think that they had a golf course as well, but don't remember.

Sven Nilsen

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Re: Florida in 1928
« Reply #122 on: April 21, 2014, 11:21:26 AM »
Pat:

A couple of clarifications:

1.  The Breakers and the RP were both owned by Flagler (RP built in 1894, first version of The Breakers built in 1896).  As they were sister hotels, I wouldn't necessarily say they competed against each other.

2.  Unless I have this completely wrong, there was only one golf course (known at different times as Palm Beach GC, the Poinciana Course and the Breakers Golf Course).  

The Palm Beach Biltmore (fka The Alba and The Ambassador) is located just a bit north of the former location of the Royal Poinciana.  I have no record of the Biltmore having its own course, but if it did it would not have been around for very long.  I've read reports that the area between Flagler's properties and what became the Palm Beach CC was very heavily developed with real estate leading up to the mid-teens.

Sven
"As much as we have learned about the history of golf architecture in the last ten plus years, I'm convinced we have only scratched the surface."  A GCA Poster

"There's the golf hole; play it any way you please." Donald Ross

Jim_Kennedy

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Re: Florida in 1928
« Reply #123 on: October 03, 2014, 06:02:43 PM »
Page 24 - C. B. Cory - Fatther of Palm Beach Golf?? 

http://www.pbchistoryonline.org/uploads/file/journal/The_Tustenegee_vol3_no1.pdf
"I never beat a well man in my life" - Harry Vardon

Rees Milikin

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Re: Florida in 1928
« Reply #124 on: August 26, 2017, 12:04:40 PM »
Bill, Rees and Jim:

Appreciate the updates.

The old thread on Ribault is fascinating, and provides a great mental picture of what life was like in many of these Florida towns back in the '20's.  There's a great contrast between the likes of a Ribault Club which was built essentially as a winter retreat for the wealthy, and a small company town course like Clewiston, built by US Sugar for the use of its employees.

Reposting the list of mysteries with those that have been identified removed:

Scenic Highlands GC (Avon Park) - 9 holes, 3,100 yards
Webber College (Babson Park)
Captiva Hotel GC (Captiva)
Chipley CC (Chipley) - 2,800 yards
Ponce de Leon Springs GC or Ponce Spring GC (De Leon Springs) - 9 holes, 3,050 yards
Enterprise Municpal GC (Enterprise) - 9 holes, 3,000 yards
Green Ball GC (Fernandina) - 9 holes
West Fort Myers Club (Fort Myers) - 9 holes
Fort Pierce Municipal GC (Fort Pierce) - 3,090 yards
Avalon CC (Howey) - 7,000 yards
Inverness CC (Inverness) - 9 holes, 3,215 yards
Cedar Hills CC (Jacksonville) - 6,401 yards
Ribault Club (Jacksonville/Fort George Island)
Jacksonville Beach CC (Jacksonville Beach) - 3,142 yards
Key West CC (Key West) - 9 holes, 3,500 yards
Palmetto GC (Kissimmee) - 3,020 yards
Colonial GC (Kissimmee) - 3,101 yards
Lakeview CC (Lake City) - 9 holes, 3,100 yards
Leesburg Municipal GC (Leesburg) - 9 holes, 3,300 yards
St. Andrews Bay GC (Lynnhaven/Panama City) - 18 holes, 6,710 yards
Golf Park CC (Miami) - 6,000 yards
Olympia GC (Olympia) - 18 holes, 6,340 yards
Putnam County G&CC (Palatka) - 9 holes, 2,500 yards
Belvedere CC (Palm Beach) - 6,000 yards
Bunkers Cove CC (Panama City) - 3,803 yards
Plant City G&CC (Plant City) - 9 holes, 3,305 yards
Riviera CC (St. Petersburg) - 18 holes
Bright Water Club (St. Petersburg) - 9 holes, 3,050 yards
Siesta Key GC (Sarasota) - 9 holes, 3,100 yards
Lake Sebring G&CC (Sebring) - 9 holes, 3,500 yards
Airport GC (Tampa) - 3,105 yards
Indian River GC (Titusville) - 9 holes, 3,500 yards
Lake Avalon CC (Winter Garden) - 6,558 yards


Sven, here is some info I found about Inverness.  It was built around a phosphate mine and routed on rolling sand hills.  The course can still be seen from current aerial photos and definitely had some unique characteristics.









Use Bing Maps Bird's Eye (the 360 view helps you look at it in various angles) view to get a better look at the holes: [size=78%]https://binged.it/2wQ1xkk[/size]




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