[Mike Treitler]

Ive played Dunes club a few times.  

I absolutely LOVE it.  If it were 18 holes it would be up there with the best.   Its a tough course and generally its like they maintained it with a scissors its in such good shape.   A very fun experience and actually reminds me a lot of Lost Dunes which I love... however, its much tighter. 

[Andy Troeger]

Looks great -- but also looks tighter than I was expecting, between the trees and the long grass.  Is that just a function of photos vs. being there?

Partially. The fairways are, for the most part, wider than they look in the photos. Over the course of 20 holes, I didn't lose a single ball and never hit a ball into the woods, and I didn't play stupendously well (the closest I came was a doublecrossed second shot on 8 my first time around that went left and ended up on the 5th tee). So there's room. I never felt smothered all day, and I never thought, "damn this is a tight alley." 

That being said, if you're spraying it, you're going to have a long day.  Make no mistake - the course is tough. 75.6/149 from the back and 74.0/145 from the member tees (I played both). It's far from a cakewalk, and if you're off the fairway by more than a couple yards, you're hunting.

Looking at these photos compared to Pine Valley makes it easier (I think) to see how wide the corridors are at PV. Dunes Club isn't narrow (or wide) but certainly looks narrower in the photos than PV. I've only played the Dunes once, ten years ago, and it does appear that some of the areas have been cleared out a bit (especially left of #3 green which used to be a jungle). The area behind the 9th green is also thinned out some.

I don't really understand why the 3rd fairway ends where it does--perhaps just to force long hitters to lay up? One can conceivably reach the green from the end of the fairway, but I found that feature takes away from the hole a bit. I also am still undecided on that big tree on #8. Neat golf course though--and having the variety of tees certainly adds interest when going around twice.

[Jon Cavalier]

Andy:

Interesting points.

On number 3, it seemed to me that the reason the fairway ends is just to keep huge hitters from having short iron into the par 5. Whether that's good or bad is up for debate I suppose. You are correct that the green is reachable from just short of the mounds - I think it's about 250 - but a bomber could have less than 170 into that hole with a good drive.

On 8, I like the tree. I thought it added an element of strategy and difficulty, and actually raised the stakes for what would otherwise be a very straightforward second shot layup. My caddy told me that the really long hitters going for the green in two will play their tee shots way left into the 5th fairway and hit their second shots up over the 5th tee so as to avoid the tree, but that both shots have to be perfect in order to pull it off.

[Andy Troeger]

Jon,

I'm wondering if the tree I remember on #8 is gone. I see trees in your photos, but seem to remember at least one more closer to the green that really impacted play. Terry or others?

When I played it, the thing that kept Dunes Club from being great in my mind was that the risk/reward ratio was off. I recall my caddie suggesting I lay up off every par five TEE because of cross-trouble, and the positioning of the doglegs on the par fours made driver a risky play on pretty much every hole except maybe #1. It could be a very station-to-station golf course because the risk is never worth the reward for all but the best ball-strikers (those good enough to try the alternate route on #8!). For those hitting the driver less than 250 it probably wouldn't have much effect.

I can't tell from the photos if the tree removal has been significant enough to change this around. #3 green looks far more approachable, but I still don't really like the mounds that force a layup off the tee. Allowing that hole to be a gambler's paradise would add some variety IMO. I guarantee I'd probably score worse if I had the opportunity to be aggressive, but I would also have more fun trying!

[Mike Hendren]

Aren't the trees "an inherent architectural impediment?"

Bogey

[Paul OConnor]

"...  Make no mistake - the course is tough. 75.6/149 from the back and 74.0/145 from the member tees ..."

I was actually fairly surprised to read these numbers.  At 6930 from the back, and 6510 from the front tees, these handicap and slope numbers seem a little high to me.  I've played The Dunes a fair number of times, and never really considered it that tough a course.  The fairways are pretty generous, and most of the greens are not that difficult to get at once you figure out the right angles.  The par 3's require what could be called "heroic" shots, but the greens are pretty big on those holes.  I think once you've been around the course a few times, and figure out where to leave driver in the bag, like 3 and 7, and where to lay up to on the par 5's, scoring shouldn't be that hard.   9 is real tough.  

For comparison, Olympia Fields from the tips at 7,205, has a course rating of 75.9 and slope of 147, member tees are 6,605, rating of 73.2 and slope 140.    In my opinion, Olympia Fields North is a far more difficult course, both for the scratch and bogey player.  

Is OFCC North under-rated for difficulty or Dunes rated overly difficult?   I think probably a little of both.

[Jon Cavalier]

Paul:

I agree completely. I was quite shocked myself when I saw the slope and rating numbers. My own experience was that the course could hurt you if you were sideways or out of position a lot, but I didn't think it was brutally difficult either.

[Howard Riefs]

I understand that at few hundred trees were recently removed. Which holes saw the most thinning?

[Andy Troeger]

I'm pretty comfortable with those rating numbers. The Dunes Club is definitely more penal than OFCC once you get offline and has no "breather" hole at all. If #5 is considered the easy hole, then that says a lot. Golfers that miss that fairway or don't get the distance will often have to lay up. I don't recall losing a lot of balls, but errant drivers can certainly find some unplayable spots at The Dunes. OFCC allows a little more leeway for misses on most holes. I'm not surprised the numbers are similar.

[Paul OConnor]

I'm pretty comfortable with those rating numbers. The Dunes Club is definitely more penal than OFCC once you get offline and has no "breather" hole at all. If #5 is considered the easy hole, then that says a lot. Golfers that miss that fairway or don't get the distance will often have to lay up. I don't recall losing a lot of balls, but errant drivers can certainly find some unplayable spots at The Dunes. OFCC allows a little more leeway for misses on most holes. I'm not surprised the numbers are similar.

Nonsense.   

[Mike Treitler]

I think both courses are brutally tough.   Olympia may be tougher because of sheer length but if you play them at the same distance I find The Dunes club to be every bit as tough.  It is just super narrow. 

[Andy Troeger]

I'm pretty comfortable with those rating numbers. The Dunes Club is definitely more penal than OFCC once you get offline and has no "breather" hole at all. If #5 is considered the easy hole, then that says a lot. Golfers that miss that fairway or don't get the distance will often have to lay up. I don't recall losing a lot of balls, but errant drivers can certainly find some unplayable spots at The Dunes. OFCC allows a little more leeway for misses on most holes. I'm not surprised the numbers are similar.

Nonsense.  

The only nonsense is providing a flippant one-word response. OFCC is probably harder for the scratch player hence the slightly higher rating and and Dunes Club is probably harder for the bogey golfer (or at least the errant driver) since there's more scrub/water, hence the higher slope. The answer to your which is wrong question is "neither."

Edit: Plus The Dunes is par 72 and OFCC is par 70, so the difference between par is reasonably significant

[Terry Lavin]

I'm pretty comfortable with those rating numbers. The Dunes Club is definitely more penal than OFCC once you get offline and has no "breather" hole at all. If #5 is considered the easy hole, then that says a lot. Golfers that miss that fairway or don't get the distance will often have to lay up. I don't recall losing a lot of balls, but errant drivers can certainly find some unplayable spots at The Dunes. OFCC allows a little more leeway for misses on most holes. I'm not surprised the numbers are similar.

Nonsense.   

Nah, there's some sense in this analysis. I've played both courses hundreds of times and Dunes is harder for my game. Not better. Not as varied and architecturally as interesting perhaps, but harder. It's only nine holes so you have to play the holes twice. Sorry, it doesn't make them any easier. At Olympia, from the middle tees, the following par-4's are easier than any of the 4's at Dunes:  4, 5, 7, 12 and 17. Not better holes necessarily, but you have a better chance at birdie than 1, 4, 5 and 9 at Dunes. 7 is a bit of a tossup compared to those Olympia holes.

Blow all the bombast that you want, there's going to be some dissent.

[Carl Nichols]

I'm pretty comfortable with those rating numbers. The Dunes Club is definitely more penal than OFCC once you get offline and has no "breather" hole at all. If #5 is considered the easy hole, then that says a lot. Golfers that miss that fairway or don't get the distance will often have to lay up. I don't recall losing a lot of balls, but errant drivers can certainly find some unplayable spots at The Dunes. OFCC allows a little more leeway for misses on most holes. I'm not surprised the numbers are similar.

Nonsense.  

The only nonsense is providing a flippant one-word response. OFCC is probably harder for the scratch player hence the slightly higher rating and and Dunes Club is probably harder for the bogey golfer (or at least the errant driver) since there's more scrub/water, hence the higher slope. The answer to your which is wrong question is "neither."

Edit: Plus The Dunes is par 72 and OFCC is par 70, so the difference between par is reasonably significant

I agree his response was nonsense -- but the course rankings do suggest that OFCC is a couple of strokes harder to par.

[Matt Swanson]

Jon,

I'm wondering if the tree I remember on #8 is gone. I see trees in your photos, but seem to remember at least one more closer to the green that really impacted play. Terry or others?
....

(Having caddied there in the 1990s and now being a member there) that tree is the same one as always, but Mr. Keiser was finally convinced years ago to remove a very large branch that extended well into the fairway.  Prior, one HAD to be on the extreme right side of the fairway on the 2nd shot, and/or hit a ~180yd+ shot to be far enough up the fairway so the branch would not interfere with the approach.  Most agreed that it was too much.  The removal of the branch eased this issue, but keeping the tree maintained the strategic component of having to really place your 2nd shot (just not as extreme).

Matt S.

[Ken Fry]

It was 11 years since the last time I played Dunes Club and I finally arranged a return visit.  The work that has been done on the course in that time is fantastic.

On the tee of the first hole you already get a different look.  The playing corridor has been opened up dramatically as has the width of the fairway.  The first green is one of four new green complexes built.  Trees to the right of the green have been thinned to allow a view of Lake Michigan.

Hole #3 also has improved width off the tee.  The long, grassy mound area still exisits in the fairway but the grass is now maintained as rough.  The two times around I had a shot from the right entry of the mound rough of 220 and the left side of the fairway also at 220.  The risk reward for trying to reach the green has not changed and still a great par 5.

Hole #6 is a dramtic change.  The green has at least doubled in size.  The entire right side of the green going back to the hill above the 5th green has been cleared and a new tee has been added providing a very different look at the green.  The big tree left off the tee has been removed allowing better access to the green from the back tees.  Huge change in the amount of space around the green.  The hole use to be claustrophibic around the green.  Now, fantastic!

Hole #7 also has been opened up more through tree removal and also has a completely redesigned green.  Before, the green was long, skinny and two tiered.  It was the least memorable green on what I've always felt is the weakest hole on the course.  Now the green complex is much bigger and more interesting.  Pin placement will make approach shots more challenging.

Hole #8 has been dramtically improved also by removing one very large branch (those that have played the Dunes know which one I'm talking about) and a completely redesigned green.  Again, the green has at least doubled in size and the tree removal around the green is dramtic.  The new tree clearing can allow a player to hit their tee shot down #5 fairway and attempt a heroic shot at the green to reach in two.  There is also a view now of #1 green, partial view of #2 and view behind and down the fairway of #5.

Jim Urbina did a fantastic job at The Dunes.  The tree removal and course changes look and play wonderful.  I hope it's not another 11 years until I get back.  The course is still a great challenge but really enjoyable to play.

Ken

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