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Mark Saltzman

  • Karma: +0/-0
I've played more than 40 of Donald Ross' courses across the United States and Canada and I'm not sure I would return to any of them over Barton Hills.  Plainfield, Pinehurst No. 2, Whitinsville, Barton Hills -- to me, these four courses are a step above all other Ross courses I have seen.  I'm not looking to get into a debate over my course preferences, my point is, YOU HAVE TO SEE BARTON HILLS (if possible)!!




Green at the 450 yard par-4 1st:




550 yard par-5 2nd from behind:




A half-pipe runs across the 3rd green:




350 yard par-4 4th:








There are not many courses that have a better set of par-3s.  The 180 yard 5th:






The green at the 7th looks simple from the fairway, but the scale of the undulations is surprising once the green is reached:




The perfect combination of challenge and fun at the 220 yard 8th.  Mounding is used to penalize the short-right miss of this awesome punchbowl green.








Top-hat restored in the centre of the 9th green:






More to come...

Steve Kline

  • Karma: +0/-0
Mark: since you have been playing a lot of Ross and some that are not widely known, you should make your way to Hyde Park in Cincinnati.

Chris DeToro

  • Karma: +0/-0
Great pics, Mark!  I've heard the restoration has been fantastic.  We had a group from BCCC over there a few weeks ago and they were raving about it.  This is definitely on my short list to visit next year.  Have you been to Muskegon CC?  That's another you should check out if you haven't already

Dustin Ferrell

  • Karma: +0/-0
Great Pics Mark, and I'm glad you enjoyed the course.  Funny how pictures really can't capture a lot of the contours on greens.  No 5 is much more sloped back to front than it looks in the pics, and 7 has my favorite green on the course, yet looks fairly benign in the pic.  Its certainly a pleasure to get to play there regularly.  Growing up in FL I had no idea how good MI golf was until I moved to MI, we are blessed w/ some great Donald Ross, Mackenzie, etc courses.  (Too bad the season is short)

Wayne Wiggins, Jr.

  • Karma: +0/-0
Never been, and looks like a course worth seeing.  As a member of a Ross course, it's always interesting to see others that have been restored/renovated.  With that said, from the pics it looks like it would be even better with more tree removal... from the pics most notabley the pines behind #9 and the row of trees to the left and behind #5.  Is that a fair statement... or should i wait to see it in person (if i ever get to Ann Arbor).

W

Mark Saltzman

  • Karma: +0/-0
I loved the 10th hole.  A 480 yard par-5 with a fairway that tilts to the left -- it's not clear from the tee as little more than the flag can be seen through a gap in the bunkering, both those hoping to reach the green in two will be far better served approaching from the right.






The uphill 240 yard par-3 11th has something of a Double Plateau green...






The 12th is an excellent short par-4.  The golfer must choose between playing away from the lake, leaving a longer approach played over green side bunkering, or carrying the lake to leave only a wedge into the uphill green.






The 13th, a long and straightaway par-4, was uninspiring until the wildly countered green was reached...






The green at the par-4 14th is a great microcosm of Barton Hill's greens -- wide in the front, but angled and narrowing in the rear, the greens offer tremendous in pin locations and can make the golf course remarkably difficult.




The stretch of holes from 15-17 is laid out over the most severe land.  Somewhat reminiscent of Sleepy Hollow's 5th hole, the 15th at Barton Hills appears simple from the tee, but will create many 'wow' reactions once in the fairway.






The 16th, at over 200 yards, must be a controversial hole.  The deep bunkering and severe nature of the land short of the green, offer little opportunity for the punter to miss..






The final par-5 is another reachable one, where the long hitter is generously rewarded as his tee shot can carry the sloping land and crest a hill...






At the 18th deceptive bunkering plays with the golfer's mind from the tee and on the approach.




These bunkers well short of the green make the approach appear far more difficult than it plays, and hide the depth of this massive green:




RJ_Daley

  • Karma: +0/-0
This looks like an exciting golf course.  I was so interested in the lay-out that I went to the Google aerial, where I noticed what I thought were some interesting things:

https://maps.google.com/maps?ie=UTF-8&hl=en&tab=wl&authuser=0

First of all, you can zoom to a half inch = onlyt 20' on this one.  When you go in that close, you can see the bunker drain lines being installed on the first hole by crew.  So, you can see that the imagery is from 2013, yet likely late May early June from the tree leafs already out.  Yet, when you zoom to >200' mark and survey the whole course, only apparently 6 golf groups are playing the back 9?  So they must not have let golfers out on the front Then when you zoom back in, the golfers are photoshopped out, but all the maintenance guys working on bunkers and mowing are seen, not photoshopped out.  That seems odd.

What is a bit of DR genius, IMO, is the double loop routing, with an option on the back to play a short 10-13 return to the CH, or 14-18 for those that need an emergency golf fix but don't have much time.  ;) ;D

I also saw on the club's website that the UofM Football team used to stay in the CH pre-game night back in the day.  Just an interesting little tid-bit that fits in with the College Football and Golf thread that I guess I'll mention there.  ;D

No actual golf rounds were ruined or delayed, nor golf rules broken, in the taking of any photographs that may be displayed by the above forum user.

Sean_A

  • Karma: +0/-0
Mark

Thanks for the tour.  I am definitely starting to come around to your way of thinking.  Can you give us a rundown of the reno work?  Did the bunkers look like that originally?

Ciao
New plays planned for 2024: Dunfanaghy, Fraserburgh, Hankley Common, Ashridge, Gog Magog Old & Cruden Bay St Olaf

Ronald Montesano

  • Karma: +0/-0
On 8-your partner hit it in there real close...where'd you end up?

On 13-that is a whale of a top-shot bunker. that's kind of an eye-grabber from my point of view.
Coming in August 2023
~Manakiki
~OSU Scarlet
~OSU Grey
~NCR South
~Springfield
~Columbus
~Lake Forest (OH)
~Sleepy Hollow (OH)

Kirk Dodge

As background, in order to complete the restoration in 2012 without an assessment or debt, we stretched the tree removal over five years. Another 64 will be removed this month. We also needed to finish our settlement with DuPont over the Imprelis damage. Those trees will come down this winter.

Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +1/-1
Mark:

It's remarkable to see pictures of this course considering that it doesn't have a very high profile locally, or at least it has been completely downplayed by my usual sources in the state.

One question on the restoration -- it's hard to tell some of the slopes here, but what is the ground doing left of #16 green ?  It seems like an obvious place to extend fairway out to the left of the green, to give the shorter hitter a safe place to miss if he can manage to carry that deep bunker.

Also, hopefully that tree on the right of the approach to 16 will disappear at some point.

Mike Schott

  • Karma: +0/-0
The topography of 15-17 remind me of holes 4-9 at nearby Leslie Park, also in Ann Arbor.

Barton Hills is very secluded and you'd never find it if it was not your destination. There are no main roads that pass close to the course. That may have something to do with it's low profile.

Kirk Dodge

Tom - interesting thought on #16, we'll discuss it this spring. Yes, that tree is on the list.

Joe Hancock

  • Karma: +0/-0
My first impression on #16 was the tree on the left side of the green needed to be gone and the rough around it should return to fairway or collar height.

The green generally slopes left to right, and off the back right corner. I can imagine the shot back in the day was a high fade with as much club as you had in the bag, aiming either at the middle of the green or off the left hillside allowing the ball to feed to the back right pin. Tough hole, but it had a strategy when it was first thought out. Between equipment and irrigation changes(I wanted to use the word "advances", but....) the hole doesn't play like it used to, I'm sure.

Joe

" What the hell is the point of architecture and excellence in design if a "clever" set up trumps it all?" Peter Pallotta, June 21, 2016

"People aren't picking a side of the fairway off a tee because of a randomly internally contoured green ."  jeffwarne, February 24, 2017

Kirk Dodge

The tree left of the green on #16 rarely comes into play for our members. Removing it will be mostly aesthetic. The green appears smaller than its actual size. You're right Joe. To access a back right pin, you need a high fade with pace. The front ledge will stall a weak fade. Those tee shots end up on the front collar with a deceptively uphill putt to execute.

BCowan

Kirk

    I played 36 at Barton around 14 years ago.  These photos from the renovation/restoration look night and day better.  Is there a plan to cut down the trees behind the #16 green to free up wind patterns?  It seems as though courses like to protect greens from errant shots too much imo.  The bunkering looks really really good and that is great that you didn't have to asses members or go into debt!  Were any greens touched in the renovation/restoration? 

Kirk Dodge

Ben - thanks, yes the bunkering and green restorations would be the core of the Master Plan as approved by our members. Five greens altered in the early 60's received full restoration in 2012. Extensions and swales would be most noticeable vs. what you saw in the 90's.

Tree removal as approved by the Board includes a number of tree "lines" planted in the 1970's after the Dutch Elm disease hit the property pretty hard (I'm a washed up old Barton caddie:-). Tree removal will open up areas visually, agronomically and strategically.

Kirk Dodge

A couple golf writers visited last fall and asked a series of questions about the size of the greens going back 10+ years. Essentially, the greens had devolved into circles roughly 40-50% of their current size. Readers here know well the pin placements made possible by these expansions.
A number of greens (#1,4,5,7,8,9,13,14,16,18) can now provide very, very interesting first putts.

PCCraig

  • Karma: +0/-0
A couple golf writers visited last fall and asked a series of questions about the size of the greens going back 10+ years. Essentially, the greens had devolved into circles roughly 40-50% of their current size. Readers here know well the pin placements made possible by these expansions.
A number of greens (#1,4,5,7,8,9,13,14,16,18) can now provide very, very interesting first putts.


Hi Kirk,

The golf course looks great. Which process/method did you use to expand your greens back to their original sizes and shapes? How long did the process take?

Thanks.
H.P.S.

Kirk Dodge

Our previous GCS started turf farms in the early 90's. By adding in a layer of loam, a turf mix he created and following Prichard's sketches, he completed the expansions and restorations between 2007 and September of 2012.
The shrinking and flattening of greens seems to be part factual - part myth. During the Depression and WW II, rationing and financial pressure led to numerous money saving steps. A founder used his tractor and gas ration stamps to help mow fairways. Slot machines added to the upstairs of the Clubhouse generated cash to buy water. A pesticide "accident" on a number of greens led to flattening some features and shrinking their size. Hard to separate fact from fiction - those stories still circulate and the old timers just nod:-)

Jud_T

  • Karma: +0/-0
Found this on the Tufts Archives:

Golf is a game. We play it. Somewhere along the way we took the fun out of it and charged a premium to be punished.- - Ron Sirak

Joe Sponcia

  • Karma: +0/-0
Thanks so much for posting.  Really great tour!
Joe

https://pillarsofgolf.wordpress.com

"If the hole is well designed, a fairway can't be too wide". - Mike Nuzzo

BCowan

I played Barton Hills today, the 2nd time after the restoration.  We played the tips and it was great to see all of the golf course.  Some positives I have is the top hat on 9 green seems to have settled better over a years time.  Still indifferent but looks much better from a mowing standpoint.  The greens at Barton are very rugged old school Ross types and leave many great pin placements.  Tweaks were made on 3, 9, 11, and 12th greens.  I don't like the changes to #3 and #12 green, swales could have been better.  With massive tree removal this course could really vault.  Some of the scale on some holes is ruined by trees.  Some really good ball buster par 4's that are meant to accept long irons.  The course is maintained too soft and with tree removal and less water it could really play very well (regrassing might be high priority due to high level of poa).  The bunkers are true hazards and the green side ones bleed well into the greens.  The 6th green has a great green which runs away, but I'd remove the pond even though it is original and replace with a ditch heading past 3 tee.  I'd move irrigation pond away from 10 green as well, ruins a great hole. All in all we are blessed with 4 good courses in A2. 

PS- Barton allows members and guest a choice to carry, trolley, or take a caddie and they support the Evans with a Caddie program.  Caddie rounds have gone up the last 3 years.  Helping to disprove the 3 by 5 card of conventional wisdom  :)
« Last Edit: November 04, 2015, 10:28:54 AM by Ben Cowan (Michigan) »

John Butler

  • Karma: +0/-0
We in the Donald Ross Society were fortunate to play Barton Hills last June, thanks to Kirk Dodge, and liked it very much!

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