[RJ_Daley]

TD states:

The weather changes quite abruptly in Montana, back and forth.  May through October is pretty dependable golf weather although it's possible to get sub-freezing weather on either end.  It's also possible to get 70-degree days outside that window.  The course remains available whenever members want to play it.

The elevation varies from 4960 ft. at the high point of the course (7th tee) down to 4580 ft. at the 17th green.

It's bentgrass greens, but dwarf bluegrass fairways and tees.  I was skeptical of the dwarf bluegrass providing a firm surface when we started, but the superintendent got it so firm and fast that the membership asked him to tone it down a bit.

I simply don't have enough playing experience on good fescue FWs to become an ardent fan.  I'm basically a hack but like to try to move shots left and right to meet the golf hole design challenges.  So, I can pull them off on occasion and it is pretty much the essence of enjoying great design over interesting terrain.  With that said, I love to play on firm and fast dwarf blue as found at Wild Horse and Bayside. I enjoy hitting off those surfaces. Therefore, it seems to me that Rock Creek would also be a blast.

My question to Tom is with his revealing remark above that seems to have indicated a bit of preconceived bias against dwarf blue, and a history of lobbying the owner towards fescue from the experience of High Pointe, do you now have a greater likelihood to recommend dwarf blue in harsher climates, if the soil is right?  Most particularly, I'm interested in what thoughts you might have IF... that sand based terrain in Adams Co., is pursued.  Would you be comfortable with a dwarf blue FW scheme?  

I'm guessing the question becomes that the transition from FW to approach of the dwarf blue onto the greens surrounds at Rock Creek may be similar to the issues faced at Wild Horse.  The dwarf blue overtaking the previous fescue dominated then dominated by bent, now more blue moving right up to the green collar is more springy and bounding and not as pure of a roll as the original firm fescue on surrounds, thus chipping or putting from near and off the green is a bit less an option on the longer cut dwarf blue.  

[Sean Leary]

Tom,

Are there are still plans to possibly build the green on 18 in the original intended location?

[George Freeman]

The most difficult part of the routing was the part I solved first -- where to cross the creek at the top end, and how to get up to that point.  I had been considering a routing like we built at Dismal River, that started from a remote starting point and played back to the lodge, because I was concerned that the first few holes would be too steeply uphill to be walkable.  But I started trying to avoid that once I realized that everyone would get in a cart to get up to a remote starting point, and once I'd walked around the property for a few days, I thought that the climb might be manageable.

It was fairly easy to find the par-3 8th hole to cross the creek; if you could read a topo map, you'd see that most other spots were far too steep to consider.  The hard part was finding a hole to deliver you to the 8th tee that was NOT another par-3, because the land was so rugged in that section of the property.  #7 was a real leap of faith, based on my ability to read the map and visualize, because that part of the ground was heavily wooded ... not even Bill Coore would ever have found that hole on foot.  Likewise, #10 and #11 and #13 and #14 were all part of my original routing on paper, done before I walked the site for the first time, and they are really the backbone of the course for me.  The first three holes are Eric's contribution; the last three owe much to the client Bill Foley and to his friend Tom Devlin, who asked me to re-think avoiding that valley after I had shied away from it originally because of the overhead power lines.  So, the routing took several trips over several months to come together, even though I had the most difficult part figured out right up front.

This is what makes this website so cool.  Awesome insight.  Thanks Tom.

[George Freeman]

Tom,

Are there are still plans to possibly build the green on 18 in the original intended location?

Where was the original intended location??

[Cliff Walston]

I am all for a Ballyneal, Dismal, Rock Creek home and away team competition over the next few seasons.  Anyone with me?

That would be cool, but most of the members at Rock Creek are content to stay there all summer.  I've tried to get a few to come down and play my other courses with little success.

I don't give up that easily, and I am happy for Rock Creek to be the first host.  

[Simon Holt]

Damn. First I go through Dismal Red two or three threads up, and now this. And very few seem to feel either of these are Renaissance design's best. Giving thanks to those who are responsible.

Brian,

I love what I see of Rock Creek and as for Dismal, its the most interesting of Tom's courses I've played.  I'm not sure if I am completely alone or people are playing it down because of past threads.  Its very, very good.

Simon

[Ron Csigo]

Hi Simon,

Which Doak courses have you played other than Dismal and Renaissance? 

The Dismal Red and Rock Creek threads have put both courses on my must see lists.

Great photos George!  Thanks.

[Sean Leary]

Tom,

Are there are still plans to possibly build the green on 18 in the original intended location?

Where was the original intended location??

I believe to the left on the other side of the creek.

[Tom_Doak]

Tom,

Are there are still plans to possibly build the green on 18 in the original intended location?

Where was the original intended location??

I believe to the left on the other side of the creek.

That wasn't really the original intended location; I considered the location, but there were some springy areas and I thought we'd have a lot of trouble with permits.

Turns out I was right.  They explored the permits for the other location last year, and gave up after a little while.

[PCCraig]

Tom,

Are there are still plans to possibly build the green on 18 in the original intended location?

Where was the original intended location??

I believe to the left on the other side of the creek.

That wasn't really the original intended location; I considered the location, but there were some springy areas and I thought we'd have a lot of trouble with permits.

Turns out I was right.  They explored the permits for the other location last year, and gave up after a little while.

I like the current green, even though I was told it was softened a bunch since opening (last year?). The 18th is a fun reachable par-5 and I like that if you bail out right away from the water you are left with a super difficult pitch with the green running away from you. I think a green location on the other side of the creek is where you would expect most architects would of placed the green with a "risk reward" element of carry the water to reach the green in two. The current green is more subtle, but it could be argued that it's just as effective.

Also, the view from the (new?) back tee on top of the hill on #18 is incredible.

[RJ_Daley]

Any word on how many inches of snow RC received?

[Ronald Montesano]

I'm curious about one thing, George. You write "one of the few forced carries" beneath your second photo on hole #1. From the photos you've given us, nearly every hole has a forced carry of one sort or another. It might be a child's carry of some forty yards, or a manly one of much more, but they show up on nearly every tee shot.

[Jim Franklin]

I'm curious about one thing, George. You write "one of the few forced carries" beneath your second photo on hole #1. From the photos you've given us, nearly every hole has a forced carry of one sort or another. It might be a child's carry of some forty yards, or a manly one of much more, but they show up on nearly every tee shot.

You are right, every hole has some kind of carry you need to cover. When playing, that thought NEVER crossed my mind. It is like Pine Valley. Forced carries on nearly every hole. Maybe that's what makes a great golf course? :-)

[paul cowley]

Good photo thread...I am seeing a lot of framing and background bunkering that is more visual than strategic, and not really much in play. Don't see a lot of cart paths either...hmmm 

[Tom_Doak]

Good photo thread...I am seeing a lot of framing and background bunkering that is more visual than strategic, and not really much in play. Don't see a lot of cart paths either...hmmm 

Paul:

I just went back through all the pictures to see if you were right about the bunkering.  It is very "visual" -- all of my associates are obsessed with composition -- but honestly, I did not count too many that aren't in play. 

There ARE a lot more bunkers than I would normally like to see, but we used a lot of them as buffers between the fairway and the "native", because the native areas are so rocky; it's tough to use them alone as a strategic influence because you might have to take a drop anywhere you're off the fairway.

Eric is good at hiding cart paths, too, but a lot of them are "hidden" because there isn't one ... paths are generally green to tee, and the turf areas on several holes connect together so you can keep the carts on the grass.

[Richard Hetzel]

Awesome pics George!

[Dave McCollum]

-- but of all Tom's work that I've 'seen' this strikes me as the height of his 'conceptual insight'. That is, the underlying approach and vision here -- present, I suppose, as the routing first took shape and before all the details and hazards and green/contours had been developed, and then informing all those subsequent choices and developments --  stands out as the determing factor in the course's success, as architecture and as field of play. To conceive of a course on that kind of dramatic terrain that seems to almost disappear within that terrain strikes me as a first rate and (ironically) bold artistic choice, and the kind of choice that only a mature and confident artist-craftsman would have been able to conceptualize/intuit/see.  
Peter

I'm not as philosophical as our friend Peter and am not sure what "conceptual insight" is.  During the round and talking about it on the drive back to our cabin the thing that struck me, and also many commenting here, is that I have never seen a course that sits so gently and perfectly on its landscape.  Since then I've seen some other great mountain courses such as Clear Creek Tahoe, but I haven't seen anything to bump RCCC from the top in this category.  

We tried to play it again last week, but didn't get invited.  Instead we spent 3 days playing nearby Old Works, a fun course and an fine example of using golf to rectify an environmental nightmare and to boost the economy of a dying town.  If nothing else, OW has to be one of the best small town "munis" in the US.  However, in terms of pure golf, it is a distant relative of RCCC.  

[George Freeman]

I'm curious about one thing, George. You write "one of the few forced carries" beneath your second photo on hole #1. From the photos you've given us, nearly every hole has a forced carry of one sort or another. It might be a child's carry of some forty yards, or a manly one of much more, but they show up on nearly every tee shot.

Ronald -

I should have been more specific:  one of the only forced carries on the course for an approach shot.  Actually I just went through the photos again and the first hole is the only hole on the course with a forced carry for a second or third shot.  Obviously many of the tee shots have some sort of "forced" carry, but to my recollection, none of them even entered my mind as a challenge to carry from the tee, especially if you're playing the correct set of tees.

[Adam Clayman]

Tom, Could you describe any thoughts you have on the very first bunker, in the series that leads up the hill to the green on #10?

There's just something that doesn't fit my eye about it. Not the placement, so much as the size in relation to the rest of the series.

Do I recall you once saying it was an add on?

[Jim Franklin]

I am all for a Ballyneal, Dismal, Rock Creek home and away team competition over the next few seasons.  Anyone with me?

That would be cool, but most of the members at Rock Creek are content to stay there all summer.  I've tried to get a few to come down and play my other courses with little success.

I don't give up that easily, and I am happy for Rock Creek to be the first host.  

Cliff -

Now that I am a member of Stonewall (two Doak courses), maybe we can include Stonewall in the competition. I would love to come out and play Rock Creek, Ballyneal again and Dismal too. Let's get it done.

[Tom_Doak]

I am all for a Ballyneal, Dismal, Rock Creek home and away team competition over the next few seasons.  Anyone with me?

That would be cool, but most of the members at Rock Creek are content to stay there all summer.  I've tried to get a few to come down and play my other courses with little success.

I don't give up that easily, and I am happy for Rock Creek to be the first host.  

Cliff -

Now that I am a member of Stonewall (two Doak courses), maybe we can include Stonewall in the competition. I would love to come out and play Rock Creek, Ballyneal again and Dismal too. Let's get it done.

It would be a great inter-club tournament:

The Renaissance Club
Sebonack
Stonewall
Lost Dunes
Medinah
Dismal River
Ballyneal
Rock Creek
Tumble Creek
Stone Eagle

Plus there are some good resort tracks they could go when nobody felt like hosting.

[Mark McKeever]

Great tour of what appears to be a very special place.  I'd love to make it out there eventually.


Mark

[Cliff Walston]

I am all for a Ballyneal, Dismal, Rock Creek home and away team competition over the next few seasons.  Anyone with me?

That would be cool, but most of the members at Rock Creek are content to stay there all summer.  I've tried to get a few to come down and play my other courses with little success.

I don't give up that easily, and I am happy for Rock Creek to be the first host.  

Cliff -

Now that I am a member of Stonewall (two Doak courses), maybe we can include Stonewall in the competition. I would love to come out and play Rock Creek, Ballyneal again and Dismal too. Let's get it done.

I am in. Let me know when and I will make the trek to Philly.  Would love to play Stonewall.

[Scott Szabo]

I am all for a Ballyneal, Dismal, Rock Creek home and away team competition over the next few seasons.  Anyone with me?

That would be cool, but most of the members at Rock Creek are content to stay there all summer.  I've tried to get a few to come down and play my other courses with little success.

I don't give up that easily, and I am happy for Rock Creek to be the first host.  

Cliff -

Now that I am a member of Stonewall (two Doak courses), maybe we can include Stonewall in the competition. I would love to come out and play Rock Creek, Ballyneal again and Dismal too. Let's get it done.

It would be a great inter-club tournament:

The Renaissance Club
Sebonack
Stonewall
Lost Dunes
Medinah
Dismal River
Ballyneal
Rock Creek
Tumble Creek
Stone Eagle

Plus there are some good resort tracks they could go when nobody felt like hosting.

Now that sounds like fun.  I'm certain there would be more than a few interested in something like this.

[Jim Franklin]

Cliff -

You are welcome any time. Let me know when you are in Philly/Baltimore. As for the event, who wants to take charge? Let's get it done.

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